Making an Area Holy

[BoloOfEarth]

How does one, in Hero, make an area holy / consecrated?  It seems to me it's probably somewhere in the Change Environment realm, but I'm not sure what the game effect would be. 

 

To be specific, the superheroes in my Champions game are tangling with some vampires, and last night they visited the Musee des Vampires Et du Monde de L'imaginaire (Museum of Vampires and Legendary Creatures) in Paris, where something had been stolen.  While there, the team mage said he was using his Mage Sight to see if any of the artifacts in the museum were actually magical.  On a whim, I decided that one of the silver crosses on display was magical, and that it effectively made a large area around it Holy Ground (triggering a vampire's susceptibility); I'm figuring something like an 8m radius.  (I used this to explain why vampires hadn't raided or razed the museum in the past.)

 

The problem is, the mage (who has a magic VPP, Inventor, and magic research skills) will likely want to know if he can replicate the effect.  So, how would one write up such an effect?

[L. Marcus]

A Spiritual Functional Transform AoE, and a Complication for the vampires.

[L. Marcus]

That being said, though, in a modern-day game I'd be very wary about letting PCs dabble with the SFX of Holy ... Unless they're outright very religious and outright righteous in the eyes of [deity concerned].

[Lucius]

22 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

How does one, in Hero, make an area holy / consecrated?  It seems to me it's probably somewhere in the Change Environment realm, but I'm not sure what the game effect would be. 

 

To be specific, the superheroes in my Champions game are tangling with some vampires, and last night they visited the Musee des Vampires Et du Monde de L'imaginaire (Museum of Vampires and Legendary Creatures) in Paris, where something had been stolen.  While there, the team mage said he was using his Mage Sight to see if any of the artifacts in the museum were actually magical.  On a whim, I decided that one of the silver crosses on display was magical, and that it effectively made a large area around it Holy Ground (triggering a vampire's susceptibility); I'm figuring something like an 8m radius.  (I used this to explain why vampires hadn't raided or razed the museum in the past.)

 

The problem is, the mage (who has a magic VPP, Inventor, and magic research skills) will likely want to know if he can replicate the effect.  So, how would one write up such an effect?

 

 

The first question really is, do you WANT him to replicate the effect?
 

If not, tell him that to replicate the effect he will have to devote his life to virtue and purity for at least a few years. That should dissuade him.

 

If you do want to replicate the effect, there are other questions to ask (would it have the same "holy" SFX?  What is the actual nature of vampires, and for that matter of Gods, in the setting? etc.) but in game terms the next question to ask is if vampires have a Complication that keeps them out of holy ground. If so, just define the effect as a Change Environment that changes the environment in a given radius to "holy." If not, and you don't want to rewrite them to have such a Complication, write the Change Environment to impose a BODy roll at a penalty and to inflict one BOD damage/phase, with the result of a failed roll being "move out of the area" and a Limitation to only effect abominations (or whatever word you use to include both undead and demonic entities.) The more unholy vitality (i.e. BOD score) a vampire has, the better it resists the effect, but give it a high enough penalty and you can make a small area just about vampire proof.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says vampires are a pain in the necks

[Duke Bushido]

I'm with Luscius. 

 

Once you stat it out in game terms, two things happen:

 

First, and not too important to some folks, but worth a mention:

You lose the magic.  Might sound funky, but when you have magic, there is that mysterious "it just is" quality that you will be exchanging for a tangible, mathematical game mechanic.  Once you have a mechanic, you have something with absolute limits and that will always work one way, and one way only.  Essentially, you have opened up a big can of "how consecrated?" 

 

HERO, as we know, doesn't do "it just is.". You will have a mechanic that has limits and will ultimately be defeated:

" well if it's 10d6 per phase, we can rope a bunch ov really tough vampires, air drop them in, let them have a phase and drag them out by the ropes, dropping in wave after wave until we do the thing" and such as that.  Maybe some suicide vampires, confident that they can be revived once the job is done, or the mechanic for de-consecration gets used. 

 

With the magic, it is simply "vampires can't go here."  much cleaner, and more mysterious. 

 

The other problem with using a mechanic is that every single thing in your universe now needs a mechanical means of inters ting with that mechanic: vulnerabilities, dice if damage, possible defenses, etc. 

 

 

I won't tell you one is better than the other, and I certainly won't tell you how to play your game.  I just want to point out that there are serious ramifications for your entire universe no matter which way you go, and I suggest thinking those through before making your decision. 

 

Either way, have fun with it, and let the fun guide you more than a bunch of anonymous voices on the internet.

 

 

[Christopher]

APG 1 82 has some experimental rules on "Imposing Limitations", "Removing advantages", "Inflicting Complications" and even effects like Suffocation/Getting Stunned.

APG 2 24 expands that over multplie Powers/longer time

 

I asume Vampires already have a (Environmental) complication. But I can not find anything about triggering those complicataions via CE yet.

[Christopher]

If you really wanted to run away with this, maybe you want to create a Profane/Holyness scala? Something similar to the Temperature scale, with a "comfortable range".

 

A simpler way might be to copy Radiation damage:

" Characters can create low-intensity radiation
with Change Environment causing minor levels of
NND damage (Normal or Killing). Ofen the character applies a Damage Over Time Power Modifer
so the victim only accumulates the damage once
per day afer lengthy exposure. Higher intensity
forms of radiation are bought as Drains, RKAs, or
other Attack Powers. See Living In A Dangerous
World, below, for further guidelines on radiation." 6E2 144

I think I saw a few power builts on this forum where "being undead" or "not being undead" was used as the "reasonably common defense" as mandatory part of a NND, UAA or similar effect.

 

6E2 147 has a whole host of Environmental effects. I think in many settings Holy Water works effectively like "Acid" or Caustic Chemical against the intended targets.

Oxygen deprivation appears on 152

153 has the more detailed radiation rules, including "Dosis" a character aquried.

 

Still nothing on explicitly triggering a Complication however. Some powers might indirectly triggering. i.e., the "Strong Magnetic Field" CE with TK Str (and potentially Radio spectrum Sense disruption), might trigger a "Vulnerable to strong magnetic fields" Complication.

You may want to ask Steve Long about having a explicit effect to "trigger a Complication".

[mallet]

The 6th Ed Grimoire has the Sanctify Area spell which is kind of what you want. The basic version is:

 

Change Environment (sanctify area), Long-Lasting (duration is permanent until defiled), Area Of Effect (16m Radius; +¾), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (45 Active Points); OAF (holy symbol or the like; -1), Concentration (0 DCV throughout casting; -1), Extra Time (1 Hour to cast; -1½),
Gestures (throughout casting; -½), Incantations (throughout casting; -½), No Range (-½), Only When Serving The God’s Purposes (-½), RequiresA Magic Roll (-½), Spell (-½). Total cost: 6 points.

 

This spell allows a priest to sanctify
an area, thus preventing demons, some types of
undead, and other such creatures from entering
it without feeling pain. Typically this is done as
part of the construction of a temple, but there’s no
reason a priest who wanted to take the time and
effort couldn’t sanctify other places of importance.

 

 

[BoloOfEarth]

Thank you, all, for the thoughtful feedback.  That's one of the reasons I love the Hero Games forums.

 

The player of the mage has made a point of the PC's religion (Catholic) since the start of the game -- it's been a point of minor contention with the team's pseudo-mentor (who is Protestant).  While he hasn't exactly dedicated his life to his faith, it's not coming completely out of left field either.  I could probably get away with the suggestions made here about not letting him use such magic unless he's particularly devout, which is probably the best route.

 

And I agree with Duke about the downsides to Hero having a mechanic for *everything*.  But I did give the vampires Susceptibility to holy ground and direct sunlight, quantifying how much damage they take and how often they take it.  So I guess I'm part of the problem. 

 

I do like Christopher's idea of a Profane/Holyness scale, similar to the temperature scale used by CE.  I did something like that for a radiation-based character, to design a power for her to absorb radiation and "clean" radioactive areas.  No particular reason I can't do the same thing with this.

 

Mallet, thank you for pointing out that Sanctify Area spell.  Breaking it down, it looks like almost all the points in the CE itself are for the Long Lasting part (+16 adder to make it permanent); the base CE level looks to only be 4 points, which seems awful low to me.  If going with this, though, I could say the cross in the museum is a permanent  AoE with No Range (so the area is around the cross no matter where it goes).

[massey]

I'll go with a different answer.  What is the source of the mage's power?  This isn't a game mechanics question, it's all about special effects and background. 

 

"Holy" is about divine power.  Unless the mage is channeling the will of God, I don't think he can replicate it.  He might be able to use some kind of spell to create the same type of effect (3D6 damage, NND, area effect), but he's got to buy it outright because doesn't have the right source behind his VPP.

[BoloOfEarth]

Just now, massey said:

I'll go with a different answer.  What is the source of the mage's power?

 

This is all about special effects.  "Holy" is about divine power.  Unless the mage is channeling the will of God, I don't think he can replicate it.  He might be able to use some kind of spell to create the same type of effect (3D6 damage, NND, area effect), but he's got to buy it outright because doesn't have the right source behind his VPP.

 

Excellent point.  His magic is all arcane, not divine.  And since that player is our former D&D DM, that should be an easy sell as to why he can't just sanctify an area.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

Excellent point.  His magic is all arcane, not divine.  And since that player is our former D&D DM, that should be an easy sell as to why he can't just sanctify an area.

I was going to point out that since the character is Catholic and the mentor is Protestant, they should both know why he couldn’t make the area Holy with magic. There is a role play opportunity there.

[IndianaJoe3]

11 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

Excellent point.  His magic is all arcane, not divine.  And since that player is our former D&D DM, that should be an easy sell as to why he can't just sanctify an area.

 

OTOH, there's no game mechanic preventing a devout arcane mage from being able to sanctify an area (if he buys the ability).

[Duke Bushido]

Right.  But that ability can have requirements, as Bolo pointed out, like "years of penitent living," etc.

 

But hey!  Once you've stated it out in HERO mechanics, the vampires can now head off into the nearest town and find an enchanter to give them a wand of Suppress Consecration!      OOohh-- or a Staff of "Dispell Holy."

 

(I kid, of course, but it's the undeniably downside to swapping "it just is" to a game mechanic)

 

 

 

[Lucius]

4 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Right.  But that ability can have requirements, as Bolo pointed out, like "years of penitent living," etc.

 

But hey!  Once you've stated it out in HERO mechanics, the vampires can now head off into the nearest town and find an enchanter to give them a wand of Suppress Consecration!      OOohh-- or a Staff of "Dispell Holy."

 

(I kid, of course, but it's the undeniably downside to swapping "it just is" to a game mechanic)

 

 

 

 

Kidding aside, it is true that what is holy can be defiled.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

sanctifying a palindromedary

[Ninja-Bear]

36 minutes ago, Lucius said:

 

Kidding aside, it is true that what is holy can be defiled.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

sanctifying a palindromedary

There’s another plot hook Doc could use. Why are this cultists in this museum?

[Christopher]

10 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

There’s another plot hook Doc could use. Why are this cultists in this museum?

Isn't the answer the same for Talisman, Demon and any cultist?

Museums have ancient artifacts hidden among the normal historical stuff.

Those groups want ancient artifacts.

[Ninja-Bear]

44 minutes ago, Christopher said:

Isn't the answer the same for Talisman, Demon and any cultist?

Museums have ancient artifacts hidden among the normal historical stuff.

Those groups want ancient artifacts.

Yup I just pulled cultists off the top of my head.

[Ninja-Bear]

57 minutes ago, Christopher said:

Isn't the answer the same for Talisman, Demon and any cultist?

Museums have ancient artifacts hidden among the normal historical stuff.

Those groups want ancient artifacts.

Yup I just pulled cultists off the top of my head.

[Killer Shrike]

Change Environment is the established mechanical way to do it, with precedent in Fantasy HERO or one of the supplements.

 

Having said that, it's basically handwavium. Holy / Unholy is SFX in the same way Magnetism is SFX. For instance, some characters such as robots occasionally take complications or limitations regarding "extreme magnetic fields", which are triggered in the presence of abilities with a Magnetic SFX. Similarly, sometimes an ice or cold based character will have a "not in extreme heat" or "not in extremely dry areas" which might be triggered by heat / fire SFX. Etc. SFX related matters are mostly a matter of rulings vs a matter of rules, with a few exceptions. So any ability defined as having a "Holy" or "Angelic" or "Hallowed" or "Sacred" or "Sanctified" or "some other synonym or adjacent concept" SFX, regardless of the base power, might qualify to trigger a "holy ground" or similar complication or disadvantage. 

 

Going a step further, if things affected positively or negatively by holy / unholy areas are going to be a thing in your campaign, you can easily elevate it to a first order concept with a custom power. D&D had a similar effect as a mid level spell called Hallow; the term could work here as well. You  could build a power construct (probably using Change Environment as the jumping off point), dialed in as you like it, and then invert the effect to define that formulation as a Custom Power called "Hallow", in a very similar way as the "Slipperiness" Power described under "Creating Custom Powers" is created.

 

 

Using this sort of approach, you can follow the broad strokes of Change Environment, but dial in any secondary knock-on effects you might want, including specific language about how it might interact with "holy ground" complications, and so forth. It also tends to result in much more compact power construct write ups.

[dmjalund]

depends on the number and size of the holes

[archer]

As for discouraging players from casting it all the time, you could make it a ritual. Take for example

 

1) At least five people must be chanting the spell for the duration of the spell. People can drop in and out of the ritual for breaks but at least five must be actively involved at all times.

 

2) Extra time: 5 years

 

If the player wants to analyze the spell to figure out how to cast it, let him make a magic roll. Whether he succeeds in the roll or not, tell him that 34 people were involved in casting it and it took five years to complete the ritual. If he makes the roll, tell him that only five people have to be actively casting it and that they can drop in and out of the ritual as it continues after they let a replacement step in.

 

If the player doesn't think to analyze the spell but wants to work on it later, let him spend a couple of weeks working on it then tell him that the only way he could figure out how to make it happen would involve at least five people casting it, concentrating at half DCV, for five years or more.

[BoloOfEarth]

6 hours ago, dmjalund said:

depends on the number and size of the holes

 

There's nothing like a good pun... and that was nothing like a good pun. 

 

JK.  I found it quite amusing.

[bluesguy]

I would suggest reading this sacred space encyclopedia article because I think it does a good job describing what is traditionally considered a sacred/holy place.

 

About 20+ years ago I belonged to a church where the sanctuary was broken into and someone engaged in what we guessed was satanic rites (most likely teenagers thinking they were being cool).  We didn't have worship in that space until we re-sanctified the space.  Our pastor contacted some of the nearby Rabbis to see what the do when this happens to them (it happens in synagogues more often than you would believe).  In the end we had a large worship service with many denominations and faiths who came and prayed with us to re-sanctify our sanctuary space. It was a huge deal.  I would highly recommend that if you let a player have the power to create a holy place you make it a big deal because it should be.

 

In terms of Hero I would suggest Change Environment and depending on the deity being worshiped by the priest there could be various items of significant value (either they are destroyed in the casting or become permanent fixtures at the location), time required (nothing less than 1 hour), gestures and incantations, and generally it would include additional people (at least two or three).  I would also make it worth the effort to create such a space.  Maybe additional recovery (peace of mind/safety/tranquil spot to rest).  Triggers susceptibility to holy places.  An overall skill level that can be used as long as it is in the service of the deity the space is dedicated to.

 

I would also suggest that there are some 'natural' places that are going to be holy (or maybe unholy depending on the circumstances).  Typically well kept cemeteries and religious locations (temples/shrines/churches) are considered holy.

[Christopher]

10 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

For instance, some characters such as robots occasionally take complications or limitations regarding "extreme magnetic fields", which are triggered in the presence of abilities with a Magnetic SFX.

Bender has that one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-AVgGaJOII