Making an Area Holy

[BoloOfEarth]

Looking back at my OP, I realize I wasn't entirely clear.  The area considered "holy" is around the cross, wherever it might be; if it's picked up, that "holy area" moves with it.  So the ideas of making the activation take a long time, or require multiple people, etc. don't quite fit what I was looking for.  I apologize for my lack of clarity. 

 

The idea is, the vampire hunter (and priest) who once carried that cross had a "blessed area" surrounding him wherever he went.  And if he left that cross with someone, that person would be considered in the middle of "holy ground" until the vampire hunter came back for his cross, at which point that area would be considered normal ground.

[massey]

6 hours ago, archer said:

As for discouraging players from casting it all the time, you could make it a ritual. Take for example

 

1) At least five people must be chanting the spell for the duration of the spell. People can drop in and out of the ritual for breaks but at least five must be actively involved at all times.

 

2) Extra time: 5 years

 

If the player wants to analyze the spell to figure out how to cast it, let him make a magic roll. Whether he succeeds in the roll or not, tell him that 34 people were involved in casting it and it took five years to complete the ritual. If he makes the roll, tell him that only five people have to be actively casting it and that they can drop in and out of the ritual as it continues after they let a replacement step in.

 

If the player doesn't think to analyze the spell but wants to work on it later, let him spend a couple of weeks working on it then tell him that the only way he could figure out how to make it happen would involve at least five people casting it, concentrating at half DCV, for five years or more.

 

See I think this just strays into the "Jerk GM" area.  Clearly churches in the real world don't have people chanting constantly for 5+ years.  If you don't want the player to be able to do it, I think just saying "you can't do this" is better than setting up a series of impossible tasks.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The best way to do it is to have complications that evil creatures take from being in a holy area such as psych comps (hates and fears holy objects and locations), susceptibilities, etc.

 

The the most reasonable power is Change Environment, although a transform can be used to make a permanent area (minor, I'd say).  The effect can be pretty minimal or have no actual combat effect at all.  +1 to holy skill rolls for prayers/holy magic for example.

[massey]

To go with a more game mechanics-oriented answer, somebody has to pay the points for it.  It doesn't matter who, but somebody's got to.

 

Let's say that Larry the Vampire takes some disadvantages.  He can't enter church grounds.  He takes x2 from Presence attacks from people wielding a cross (and he buys some of his Presence "not vs people with crosses").  Larry sets up what restrictions he wants to come into play, and he gets points for it.  If Larry wants to be affected by all religious symbols (so a Scientologist can drive him away with a VHS copy of Battlefield Earth), then he gets more points for that.  The disadvantage is more severe.  If he wants only certain things to affect him (you've gotta have a cross made from certain materials, or that has gone through a ritual, or you've gotta have a campaign specific "True Faith" perk), then he gets a lot fewer points.  It's not much of a disadvantage by that point.

 

In that instance, Larry is the one who "paid" for it, because he knowingly took the points for the disadvantages.  You don't have to pay points to trigger Larry's disads, because Larry already did that for you.

 

At the other extreme, let's say that Bob also wants to play a vampire.  But Bob's vampire is different, because of Anne Rice or Twilight or something.  He's a vampire priest, and he still goes to church and takes communion and everything.  Well he just doesn't take those disadvantages, so the normal anti-vampire tactics don't work on him.  But now Dave the vampire hunter comes along, and Dave wants a cross that doesn't just repel vampires -- it obliterates them.  Dave buys it as a 6D6 RKA, only vs vampires.  Even though Bob's priest vampire is normally not affected by crosses, he's affected by this one, because Dave paid for it.

 

In this game, it seems that vampires normally have some kind of vulnerability/disadvantage versus crosses and other holy objects.  But this specific holy cross has a greater effect than normal.  It's better than a normal cross for some reason.  In this instance, I'd suggest that basically God paid the points for the cross.  A priest or somebody might be able to pray and convince God to make another one (maybe through roleplaying, maybe with a Change Environment, maybe by just paying the points themselves), but it's not something that can be accessed for free with the mage's VPP.

[BoloOfEarth]

2 minutes ago, massey said:

In this game, it seems that vampires normally have some kind of vulnerability/disadvantage versus crosses and other holy objects.  But this specific holy cross has a greater effect than normal.  It's better than a normal cross for some reason.

 

You nailed it in one.

 

I figure the now-long-dead vampire hunter paid the points for the cross and its enhanced effects ( so whatever the base power might be, it's 0 END and Persistent). 

 

I confess, I'm CDO (that's OCD in alphabetical order as it should be), so I like to have game effects quantified.  Some might say that it's not really necessary since I'm GM, but I make sure all the villains' character sheets add up, that they have the right amount of XP (earned at roughly the same rate as the PCs) and that their powers don't violate the same rules I apply to the PCs.

[mallet]

Some possible idea for how to make the cross special, but not being able to be duplicated:

 

Maybe it contains a bone shard or a small amount of blood of a Saint in it. It is these remains that give the cross its holy power, not a spell or a ritual. So your mage isn't going to be able to duplicate it unless he can find more remains of Saints. 

 

As for the more traditional Holy Areas, maybe for them to exist there needed to have been either a miracle performed at the site sometime way in the past, and the remaining aura of that miracle is what makes the area sanctified (and why someone might have built a church there in the first place). 

 

Or if a miracle didn't take place there, there needs to have been a standing and operating church and/or graveyard present for many years or decades or centuries and it is that constant expression of faith and masses and proper burials (with all the attending rites) that slowly built up the "holy energy" of the place making it sanctified. 

[Duke Bushido]

4 hours ago, massey said:

f Larry wants to be affected by all religious symbols (so a Scientologist can drive him away with a VHS copy of Battlefield Earth

 

First and foremost, I did not. Miss your points: they were well-spoken and beautifully-laid-out, and a reminder of just how and why something in HERO can be "it just is." 

 

 

But that VHS crack-   that was just awesome! 

 

Thanks! 

[Christopher]

5 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Looking back at my OP, I realize I wasn't entirely clear.  The area considered "holy" is around the cross, wherever it might be; if it's picked up, that "holy area" moves with it.  So the ideas of making the activation take a long time, or require multiple people, etc. don't quite fit what I was looking for.  I apologize for my lack of clarity.  

 

The idea is, the vampire hunter (and priest) who once carried that cross had a "blessed area" surrounding him wherever he went.  And if he left that cross with someone, that person would be considered in the middle of "holy ground" until the vampire hunter came back for his cross, at which point that area would be considered normal ground.

Then it is "whatever power they wrote up" on a Obvious Focus.

[Ockham's Spoon]

This question gets to my core problem with most magic and supernatural abilities and effects - the underlying mechanics aren't explained well enough to spec them out.  What is it about holy places/items that cause vampires difficulty?  Is it the power of a god that opposes their corrupt nature or perhaps a subconscious mental effect generated by strong faith, or something else entirely?  And once you figure that out, why do vampires avoid garlic?  But then trying to enforce logic on myths and magic is a losing battle unless you allow that some superstitions are misinformed or baseless.

 

As for your PC mage, why doesn't he just create a spell that will generate sunlight?  That will be similarly damaging to the vampires and avoid the whole issue of whether he can create a 'holiness' field with his arcane powers.

[Christopher R Taylor]

A sunlight field wouldn't necessarily harm the same things that a holy area would -- demons for example might be hindered or harmed by holy areas where sunlight might make them shrug.  Which is good, each discipline should have its own flavor and variety.  A mage creating sunlight might harm creatures unbothered by holiness (underground creatures, for instance).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

This question gets to my core problem with most magic and supernatural abilities and effects - the underlying mechanics aren't explained well enough to spec them out. 

 

That's not exactly true; they are explained well in their historical context and origin, just not recently.  Today, people remember these concepts, but not the principles and ideas behind them, so we're left uncertain about how they are supposed to work.  For example, holy areas cause damage to certain creatures because it is an area of the direct presence and power of the divine, an enemy of evil so potent that the mere existence of it is damaging to them. 

 

Later reconning and "deconstruction" of these ideas trying to remove any religious connotations or "scienceize" them to better appeal to postmodern culture has eliminated almost all of these principles so vampires ignore sunlight and crosses, etc.

[Christopher]

On 11/18/2018 at 8:27 PM, Ockham's Spoon said:

This question gets to my core problem with most magic and supernatural abilities and effects - the underlying mechanics aren't explained well enough to spec them out.  What is it about holy places/items that cause vampires difficulty?  Is it the power of a god that opposes their corrupt nature or perhaps a subconscious mental effect generated by strong faith, or something else entirely?  And once you figure that out, why do vampires avoid garlic?  But then trying to enforce logic on myths and magic is a losing battle unless you allow that some superstitions are misinformed or baseless. 

  

As for your PC mage, why doesn't he just create a spell that will generate sunlight?  That will be similarly damaging to the vampires and avoid the whole issue of whether he can create a 'holiness' field with his arcane powers.

I saw the vampire side most often justified with a "Curse from the Gods". Particular the judeo-christian God. The weakness to the sun is often justified the same way: "He shall not walk under the Sun Gods gaze." or some such.

There are also any number of nucturnal animals, to wich they might be likened.

 

Personally I think "Vampie Nobles" was common folk reacting to the "Photosensitivity" diseases. The effect might appear like "being burned by the sun", albeit very slowly.

Usually it is caused by some other illness (like Lupus). About 90% of those we can diagnose and treat today. But back in the day, illnesses were between Permanent Features and Death Sentences.

If someone avoids the sun, their skin will become light to white.

And if you add in that nobles of those times were not prone to have the most diverse genepool (thanks to de-jure title claims following bloodlines), you can easily see how a "Vampire Dynasty" would appear a suiteable explanation for that clan of Photosensitive Rulers.

[BoloOfEarth]

FWIW, at last night's game I told that player that since his powers were arcane rather than divine, he couldn't "bless" an area.  He had no problem with that at all.

 

As to the sunlight thing, he had talked about creating a "daylight" spell, but since the players already knew the showdown was going to take place on a rooftop in mid-afternoon, that spell didn't seem important enough for him to pursue.

[L. Marcus]

Also, Elvis.