Creating/Materializing Weapons

[Mister Opiatic]

In general, my character can disintegrate and create metal, but I'm not entirely sure how to make it so that he can materialize a sword. Is there some kind of advantage that I could stick on to an HKA so that the sword won't disappear after being made? I know about "physical manifestation", but this doesn't seem like a limitation in this case. Thanks for any help.

[Doc Democracy]

There is always an issue with creating something that has a continued existence.  Are we talking superheroes, where such a thing is likely to be incidental and relegated to SFX, or heroic where these items would have definite value to others?

 

Doc

[IndianaJoe3]

5 hours ago, Mister Opiatic said:

In general, my character can disintegrate and create metal, but I'm not entirely sure how to make it so that he can materialize a sword. Is there some kind of advantage that I could stick on to an HKA so that the sword won't disappear after being made? I know about "physical manifestation", but this doesn't seem like a limitation in this case. Thanks for any help.

 

The canonical way to do this is with a Transform (Negative Space Wedgie into Swords). However, unless the character is routinely making swords for distribution, I'd treat the leftover swords as a special effect.

[Killer Shrike]

Physical Manifestation does exactly what you describe, and it is a small limitation because the physical manifestation can be targeted after you've made it. That's how I would model this type of effect, and it is how I've done it in the past. Physical Manifestation is a lim custom made exactly for this sort of ability.

 

However, it could just be the SFX for a HKA.

 

 

[Lucius]

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 2:52 PM, Mister Opiatic said:

In general, my character can disintegrate and create metal, but I'm not entirely sure how to make it so that he can materialize a sword. Is there some kind of advantage that I could stick on to an HKA so that the sword won't disappear after being made? I know about "physical manifestation", but this doesn't seem like a limitation in this case. Thanks for any help.

 

First off, there is no rule I know of that says swords have to disappear after being made, so no special Advantage necessary

 

But it may make a difference what exactly you plan to DO with materialized swords. If you just want to be able to create a sword any time you want to stab someone, so that you can't be disarmed permanently, just buy a Hand to Hand Killing Attack. If you want to make extras and pass them around to friends, that may call for a different power build, and if you want to go into business mass producing them that's something else again.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

As long as you're not planning to stick it to the palindromedary

[Christopher]

4 hours ago, Lucius said:

But it may make a difference what exactly you plan to DO with materialized swords. If you just want to be able to create a sword any time you want to stab someone, so that you can't be disarmed permanently, just buy a Hand to Hand Killing Attack. If you want to make extras and pass them around to friends, that may call for a different power build, and if you want to go into business mass producing them that's something else again.

And the Setting (Superheroic or Heroic) also maters relevantly.

 

Remmber that in Hero System you always build from Effect. What is the game effect you want this to have?

[Christopher]

5 hours ago, Lucius said:

First off, there is no rule I know of that says swords have to disappear after being made, so no special Advantage necessary

Well, a HKA power can not be handed out to other characters default. I guess that is what he was asking for?

 

On 11/17/2018 at 8:52 PM, Mister Opiatic said:

In general, my character can disintegrate and create metal, but I'm not entirely sure how to make it so that he can materialize a sword. Is there some kind of advantage that I could stick on to an HKA so that the sword won't disappear after being made? I know about "physical manifestation", but this doesn't seem like a limitation in this case. Thanks for any help.

By default all powers are personal only, unless the description notes others. Even if they are realized as something physical (say Thors Mjöllnir or nearly anything of Batman), they are not given to other characters who did not pay points for them. Or at least not regulary. It can still happen once or twice per campaign, but beyond that it requires a proper build with all the scrutiny.

 

Aside from Aid and Boost, the way to give others powers regulary via "usable by others". A metal object can be a simple HKA/HTH attack, depending on what you go for. However campaign limits have to be observed. Giving the Hulk the bonus damage of wielding Mjöllnir (+4 or so DC) could be troublesome for game and thus encouter balance. The point costs also usually limit this to Superheroic games.

 

In Heroic games, most of this kind of gear is realized via Focus rules. So the thematic becomes "Object Creation". Transform has some rough rules on how to use it (and why the GM should not allow it).

APG II 32 has the Power "Object Creation". Like most stuff in the Advanced Player guides it is semi-experimental. Unlike most stuff it is additionally marked with the exclamation Sign for "exceptional balance problems".

Once you get into object creation, a whole host of issues will arise. Like suddely having effectively unlimited money from selling the stuff you created without paying for the proper Perk. You effectively get utility close to that of the Green Lantern ring, except your stuff stays permanent.

[Killer Shrike]

Object Creation has a long list of things it can't do, including not being able to make something that can work as a weapon. 

 

 

[Mister Opiatic]

Yeah, I’ve looked at all the obvious powers, but I didn’t see anything that suited it all that well. Transformation specifically says not to make weapons, and Usable on Others for an HKA seems a bit much for my CP budget. Also, to clarify, when I say sword I don’t mean anything fancy—just a sharp length of steel basically—so it wouldn’t be worth much. 

[Christopher]

28 minutes ago, Mister Opiatic said:

Yeah, I’ve looked at all the obvious powers, but I didn’t see anything that suited it all that well. Transformation specifically says not to make weapons, and Usable on Others for an HKA seems a bit much for my CP budget. Also, to clarify, when I say sword I don’t mean anything fancy—just a sharp length of steel basically—so it wouldn’t be worth much.  

Still, if you coudl spam it and melt them down (or just produce the raw metals directly), you would make a mint.

 

You have not yet given us any limits or any of the details we requested (like Setting). Without that, we told you anything we can say.

[Lucius]

2 hours ago, Mister Opiatic said:

Yeah, I’ve looked at all the obvious powers, but I didn’t see anything that suited it all that well. Transformation specifically says not to make weapons, and Usable on Others for an HKA seems a bit much for my CP budget. Also, to clarify, when I say sword I don’t mean anything fancy—just a sharp length of steel basically—so it wouldn’t be worth much. 

 

Then just buy the Killing Attack, full stop. And say that for whatever reason, you only create swords for yourself and don't pass them out to others. Maybe later with XP you can buy the ability to do so if you want.

Or if you are under heroic rather than superheroic rules, maybe you CAN produce very ordinary swords, since they are considered equipment and ordinarily one doesn't pay points for them. If you are buying the ability with character points when it could be gotten "for free" (for money not points) I don't think it's unreasonable to say you can create enough to pass around.

Under superheroic rules, you would likely not be allowed such leeway.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Under my tagline rules, there must be a palindromedary here.  

[Mister Opiatic]

Thanks for the suggestions! I'm only working on about 25 CP for the sword, and I'm trying to make the power plausible, yet still fit within the rules. His other powers (like barrier) don't disappear after he uses them, so I didn't want the sword to either.

[Christopher]

On 11/20/2018 at 11:19 PM, Mister Opiatic said:

Thanks for the suggestions! I'm only working on about 25 CP for the sword, and I'm trying to make the power plausible, yet still fit within the rules. His other powers (like barrier) don't disappear after he uses them, so I didn't want the sword to either.

The sword and barrier are to different to compare realy. I know it makes logical sense that the barrier and sword behave the same. But logic is not the question. Balance is. And yes, often Rules that make the least sense make the most sense.

 

If the sword does not disapear, then anybody else (allies and enemies alike) could just pick it up. With barrier the possibility that a "enemy or ally" benefits from it is already part of the power. As integral to the cost structure as Defense and Body. But for a HKA, that has to be largely excluded.

 

The fix for that can be manifold:
It can be simply a (unspoken) agreement. How often did you saw other heroes (or villains) carry and use Captain Americas shield in the 2009 Avengers cartoon? And that one went on for 2 26 Episode Seasons.

Or it can be like Thors hammer "whoever is worthy" rule.  Other heroes are not generally worthy (unless Thor is dead for good or the story asks for it). So the question of anyone else even lifting it never comes up.

Or it can be a simple rule like "disolves once it leaves your hand".

[Mister E]

How many swords can you make in an hour?

 

This is extraordinary weaponsmithery.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 11/19/2018 at 4:26 PM, Mister Opiatic said:

Yeah, I’ve looked at all the obvious powers, but I didn’t see anything that suited it all that well. Transformation specifically says not to make weapons, and Usable on Others for an HKA seems a bit much for my CP budget. Also, to clarify, when I say sword I don’t mean anything fancy—just a sharp length of steel basically—so it wouldn’t be worth much. 

Did you check the summon power?  I think that it can be used to create weapons-not sure though.

[Christopher]

3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Did you check the summon power?  I think that it can be used to create weapons-not sure though.

The rule to "not use a power like Summon/Transform/Object creation if there is a more fitting one" will break all thsoe idea.

 

The most fitting Power is a UBO build. Anything else is just options to get around UBO because the campaign power level does not afford you that many AP/CP.

[Lucius]

54 minutes ago, Christopher said:

The rule to "not use a power like Summon/Transform/Object creation if there is a more fitting one" will break all thsoe idea.

 

The most fitting Power is a UBO build. Anything else is just options to get around UBO because the campaign power level does not afford you that many AP/CP.

 

Perhaps if it's actualy going to be used by others. If no others are going to use it, then no.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Usable by palindromedary

[Christopher]

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

 

Perhaps if it's actualy going to be used by others. If no others are going to use it, then no. 

  

Lucius Alexander

 

Usable by palindromedary

As I already said:

 

18 hours ago, Christopher said:

If the sword does not disapear, then anybody else (allies and enemies alike) could just pick it up. With barrier the possibility that a "enemy or ally" benefits from it is already part of the power. As integral to the cost structure as Defense and Body. But for a HKA, that has to be largely excluded.

 

The fix for that can be manifold:
It can be simply a (unspoken) agreement. How often did you saw other heroes (or villains) carry and use Captain Americas shield in the 2009 Avengers cartoon? And that one went on for 2 26 Episode Seasons.

Or it can be like Thors hammer "whoever is worthy" rule.  Other heroes are not generally worthy (unless Thor is dead for good or the story asks for it). So the question of anyone else even lifting it never comes up.

Or it can be a simple rule like "disolves once it leaves your hand". 

 

[Cassandra]

Unless there is a limitation to activating the weapon it's just a special effect.  It's like in Highlander when they pull out their swords no matter what they are wearing.

[Tech]

The reason why you're materializing the sword is key here. Are you creating a sword so you can go swashbuckling? If you're materializing swords so you can hit someone with a KA, and no one can take it away, it's just a special effect. As for it not disappearing, talk to your GM. If you can have your sword that you materialized disarmed, it's an OAF (Obvious Accessible Focus). Btw, OAF also takes care of the potential problem of an enemy grabbing your sword away and trying to hit you with it. You're certainly not going to apply UBO on a power so your opponent can take it away from you, to run you through with your weapon; that's a Focus limitation. We need to be clear about UBO and Focus: UBO is an advantage that is beneficial, Focus is a limitation that is detrimental to you.

[Scott Ruggels]

10 hours ago, Tech said:

 We need to be clear about UBO and Focus: UBO is an advantage that is beneficial, Focus is a limitation that is detrimental to you.

 

Why not use both? ?

[Duke Bushido]

HKA, UBO (if desired) Focus of Opportunity: suitable amount of metal.  "turning it into a sword" is just the SFX of the Focus of Opportunity-based HKA. 

 

UBO and Focus are _not_ mutually exclusive.  They are certainly _different_, as Scott suggests above, and may even both be relevant to your concept.  Want the chance of having it taken away?  Make it a focus.  Want to make it absolutely dependant on having enough metal nearby?  Focus of Opportunity.  Granted, if your playing in a modern environment, this will really drop the value of the FoO, but it also means you will have an easier time recovering it when taken away. 

 

Want to be able to lose it and have a hard time replacing it?  Go with a regular Focus.  Want to hand them out like camel-covered onions?  UBO. 

Want to really hammer the idea that you're transforming some bit of metal?  Extra Time to activate or something similar. 

 

It's not too difficult to build (though it may be pricey), so long as you _first_ decide exactly - - and I mean _exactly_ how you see it working in-game. 

 

Slightly off my point, but within the bounds of the discussion:

I have _never_ had a hard time ignoring the vast majority of the rules restricting T-form.  Given that you can spend the same points to make a Killing Attack, I figure a minor T-form is anything at least as useful as a dead body.  Scale up from there. 

[Lucius]

57 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

HKA, UBO (if desired) Focus of Opportunity: suitable amount of metal.  "turning it into a sword" is just the SFX of the Focus of Opportunity-based HKA. 

 

UBO and Focus are _not_ mutually exclusive.  They are certainly _different_, as Scott suggests above, and may even both be relevant to your concept.  Want the chance of having it taken away?  Make it a focus.  Want to make it absolutely dependant on having enough metal nearby?  Focus of Opportunity.  Granted, if your playing in a modern environment, this will really drop the value of the FoO, but it also means you will have an easier time recovering it when taken away. 

 

Want to be able to lose it and have a hard time replacing it?  Go with a regular Focus.  Want to hand them out like camel-covered onions?  UBO. 

Want to really hammer the idea that you're transforming some bit of metal?  Extra Time to activate or something similar. 

 

It's not too difficult to build (though it may be pricey), so long as you _first_ decide exactly - - and I mean _exactly_ how you see it working in-game. 

 

Slightly off my point, but within the bounds of the discussion:

I have _never_ had a hard time ignoring the vast majority of the rules restricting T-form.  Given that you can spend the same points to make a Killing Attack, I figure a minor T-form is anything at least as useful as a dead body.  Scale up from there. 

 

Fertilizer:  (Total: 32 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Change Environment (+2 Fertiliity Level Adjustment, Long-Lasting 1 Season), Area Of Effect (2m Line; +1/4) (32 Active Points); 1 Charge (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -3), OAF Bulky Expendable (Very Difficult to obtain new Focus; -2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Must deal with stench, allegations of defiling a corpse, etc. ; -1), No Range (-1/2) (Real Cost: 4)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

As useful as a palindromedary

[Duke Bushido]

Less fertilizer than you'd expect: if you've got a Killing Attack, getting a new focus is remarkably easy.

 

 

[Lucius]

8 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Less fertilizer than you'd expect: if you've got a Killing Attack, getting a new focus is remarkably easy.

 

 

 

Turning someone into fertilizer may be easy (although I suspect most people would object.)

 

Turning someone into fertilizer and getting away with it may not be so easy.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And the verdict is: Innocent! Feed them to the palindromedary!