AD&D (1st Edition) Conversion - The Thread

[Rapier]

Last of the seventh level spells and I'm not sure how to do this one. There was a spell a bit ago that allowed a magic-user to summon an object to himself. I built it as a Summon since that seemed easiest. A Transform didn't seem right since the object would have to disappear in one place and show up in another. Maybe a MegaScale TP would have been better?

 

In this case, Vanish:

Quote

When the magic-user employs this spell, he or she causes an object to vanish. The magic-user can cause the object to be teleported (see Teleport spell) if it weighs up to a maximum of 200kg. Greater objects can be made to vanish, but they are simply placed into the ethereal Plane and replaced with stone. Thus, a door can be made to disappear, and it will be replaced by a stone wall of ⅓m thickness, or equal in thickness to the door, whichever is greater. The maximum volume of material which can be affected is 10m3. Thus, both weight and volume limit the spell. A Dispel Magic which is successful will bring back vanished items from the Ethereal Plane.

 

Summon? TP? I'm leaning towards making both spells TP, MegaScale with a Floating Fixed Location.

 

Thoughts?

[Amorkca]

But if the spell replaces a door with a stone wall, isn't that more of a transform than a TP?

[Doc Democracy]

To me you have a compound power.  One is actually moving an object from one place to another (teleport as you say - but this should be exactly as you built teleport) , the second kicks in when the object vanishing is greater than 200kg and you move an item to the ethereal plane (that is Extra-Dimensional Movement, usable as an attack) and create a barrier to replace the vanished object.

 

I would be looking at a multipower with NCC over the slots - what happens all depends on the nature of the object to be vanished.

 

Doc

[Duke Bushido]

I tend to lean toward T-form, simply because the "banished to the ethereal plane" thing as more SFX than anything else.  Actually, it's not even that: replacing the object with stones is the SFX; the ethereal plane is just a bit of backstory.

 

Though I do agree with Doc that in HERO terms, you have more than one power.  However, I don't think it's necessarily a compound power, unless compound powers allow you to use one (teleport that thingy to me) or the other (turn that thingy into stones).  I personally think the easiest way out of this is two separate spells.  If you want to stay hardcore D&D, they are available as a pair, as though you picked the _one_ spell in D&D.

 

Though I could buy into Doc's multipower idea, too: one slot T-port, one slot T-form.  Then you have "one thing" to represent "one spell."

 

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Though I could buy into Doc's multipower idea, too: one slot T-port, one slot T-form.  Then you have "one thing" to represent "one spell."

 

Howmuch you willing to pay?  ?

[Duke Bushido]

13cp, and not one EP more!  

 

[Rapier]

There were a couple of AD&D spells (Otiluke's Freezing Sphere and Pyrotechnics, come to mind) that had the option of two or three very different effects. I needed to build each individually because putting them into a compound power jacked the costs up so high it was ridiculous. So I created Otiluke's I, II, and III.

 

So I'm ok splitting it into separate spells if I need to. I've also been adapting some spells because the effects were either just silly or too much of a pain in the butt to adapt. I could very easily just skip the "heavy objects are replaced with stone" and just say that there is a maximum weight and trying to Vanish over that weight has no effect. I could also build it so that every 1000kg is a -1 on the Magic Skill roll. There is 'technically' no upper limit to the weight you could teleport, but effectively anything over about 10,000 kg is going to be impossible to cast. I've used this mechanic with some of the juicier spells (Speak with Dead, Resurrection, etc).

 

This is one of those spells that really makes me wonder if ol' Gary wasn't fond of the wacky tabacky. It's a little weird. Cast this spell to teleport something to you, but if it's really heavy it gets moved to another plane and replaced with stone. Where does the stone come from? Is it the exact same dimensions? 

 

Drawmij's Instant Summons (another 7th level spell) will bring an object to the caster, but requires you to pre-cast on the item so that it can be recalled at a later date. Vanish takes an object and sends it to wherever you want. It seems to be, basically, the same spell just slightly different (and so slightly different I wonder why there are two spells anyway). With the amount of 'borrowing' ol' GG did I wonder if there was some book or something he read that had this particular spell and he thought it was neat and stole it.

 

At any rate, I'm leaning towards just saying that anything can be teleported to the caster's desired location, but there is a modifier of -1 per 200kg (after the initial 200kg, so 200kg is -0, 400kg is -1, etc). When the item disappears from it's current location it is replaced with an exact stone replica (with some kind of warning that the stone version may be much heavier and hijinks could ensue). The 'move it to the ethereal plane' is a bit wonky and IMO unnecessary. 

[Ninja-Bear]

How about turn to stone being a side effect? I say this because as a player you wouldn’t automatically know if something is 200kg or not so if you cast it on something that you wanted moved but then being too heavy it becomes stone sound like a problem.

[Rapier]

12 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

How about turn to stone being a side effect? I say this because as a player you wouldn’t automatically know if something is 200kg or not so if you cast it on something that you wanted moved but then being too heavy it becomes stone sound like a problem.

 

That might work well, flub the Magic Skill roll and you just petrify shit. LOL. That could definitely put a damper on your casting.

[Rapier]

8th level spells are done!! Heading for shower! I hope to finish 9th by Friday. I've decided to keep on with the Illusionist spells (since I'm thinking of a source book and it will be easier to do while I'm in the groove instead of starting up again). Sourcebook also means I will want to reformat my layout a bit into 2 columns instead of 1. Won't take very long but it's a bit of a pain in the butt. If I had known I was going to be tinkering with format this much I would have put all the info in a database and done a merge. Oh well. Maybe next time! LOL.

[Rapier]

I've got about 5 9th level spells left (and I'm off today and Monday so I do have a bit of time to actually spend on it) and then Illusionist, but there is only about half as many of those as Magic-User and a LOT of them are duplicates.

 

So obviously since I'm running a Con game, I didn't REALLY need to convert all the spells. While they are battling giants they aren't going to stop to Enchant an item or summon a demon. They also aren't going to be of high enough level to cast a Wish spell. So why go to all the trouble and effort? My thought was that if I convert just the half a dozen spells or so I will actually need they will just be Hero powers with the same name and sfx of the AD&D spell. I initially started with just some magic-user spells and found that I was really all over the place with modifiers. No spells had Extra Time for casting. I had attempted to use continuing charges for duration effects. It was just a mess. I looked at what I had done and came to the realisation that if my goal was to reproduce the flavour of AD&D with the solid mechanics of Hero I had failed. It wasn't even very good Fantasy Hero. So I stepped back and approached it from a World Builder viewpoint. I spent a bit concentrating on how magic worked and came up with a list of common modifiers (which is still on an index card next to my keyboard that I use as a checklist so nothing is forgotten). I read through enough spells that I think I am reproducing the flavour pretty well and I'm actually really happy with 99% of the work. There are a few spells that still don't feel quite right. They might need to be built with a different power, or just hand-waved a bit, or it may just be one of the spots where Hero and AD&D don't quite mesh well.

 

But now I've kind of led myself down into sourcebook territory. Which I can't believe I never thought of until someone mentioned it. I've been approaching this as a World Builder so that I keep the feel and flavour of AD&D that we all love, while getting rid of the schlocky, heavy-handed shoehorn of balance decisions that always made everyone's eyebrow twitchy. I originally planned on keeping this big book of magic spells myself and copying out the personal spellbook of the caster characters. I figure each caster will have a spellbook of about five pages or so. The entire spell library is pretty meaty, even at 8pt, and the casters won't need all of that extra information (and why waste the paper). I figured that it would be easiest and best to leave it in a single column like a regular document. I thought that would be easiest. But a sourcebook needs 2 columns. SO (this is where I've been rambling towards this whole time), do I keep the spell book as a single column and when proofreading, etc is done create another version that is 2 columns (which won't necessarily be a two minute job because I used tables for organising things). Or do I do it now (before tackling illusionists) and all spellbooks and sourcebook will be 2 columns? I'm kind of leaning towards converting to 2 columns now. We are all kind of used to seeing it like this. And I may actually convert to using tabs insteads of tables for organisation because it will make all the work easier.

[Rapier]

I'll do some tinkering today. If I convert table to text and set columns to tabs it should change pretty easily. Right now I've got this:

 

Animal Friendship
Range: Touch	Casting Time: 1 Hour	Components: V, S, M (Mistletoe and Piece of Food)
DCV: ½	Magic Skill: -1	College: Enchantment/Charm
Area of Effect: 1 Animal	Mana Cost: 3	Duration: Permanent
Description: By means of this spell the druid is able to show any animal which is of at least animal intelligence (but not above semi-intelligent rating) that the druid is disposed to be its friend. If the animal does not flee immediately when the spell is begun, it will stand quietly while the druid finishes the spell. Thereafter, it will follow the druid about, and he or she can teach it three specific "tricks" or tasks for each point of intelligence it possesses (typical tasks are those taught a dog or similar pet, ie they cannot be complex). Training for each such "trick" must be done over a period of one week, and all must be done within three months of acquiring the creature. During the training period the animal will not harm the druid, but if the creature is left alone for more than three days it will revert to its natural state and act accordingly. The druid may use this spell to befriend animal(s) up to the number of total points the druid possesses (eg a 250pt druid can befriend five 50pt bears with five separate castings of Animal Friendship). Only neutral animals can be attracted, befriended, and trained. The material components of this spell are mistletoe and a piece of food attractive to the animal subject.
Build:

 

It's all in a table so I could easily keep track of column widths. If I go to 2 columns on the page, I can't do three columns of spell headers, I'll have to go to two. But converting to text/tabs I may have to adjust what is displayed where. I've gone back and forth a couple of times on what order/where to display the spell header info. The original text listed the College in the spell title: Animal Friendship (Enchantment/Charm). But I fully intend (as a World Builder) to let casters take Levels with colleges (to concentrate/specialise) so you could take +2 with Abjuration. So I wanted to make the College information more prominent so they would easily know which spells can use which Levels.

Also, what do you think about including the Material components in the Spell Header. I really thought this was great because that way if you want to cast the spell you don't need to read through the entire spell description to find out if you have the goods. It's right in the header. But it takes up a lot of real estate. I would need to have it almost on a row by itself so it could use both columns.

 

I'm leaning towards the latter. Range, Casting Time, DCV, and AoE are kind of the "Can I cast this now?" details. College, Magic Skill, Mana Cost, and Duration are kind of the effects of casting section. At least that was what I was kind of doing to break them up. I guess it doesn't really matter what order I put them in, I was just trying to group them a bit logically. I think I need to leave College in the header info so that I have that odd number of fields so I can have Components on it's own. What do you think of the order/placement? Would you move some? Where to? As a player, if you were going to be casting the spell, what would be the best placement? Do I put AoE and Duration on the right column?

 

Gimme some feedbacks!

 

EDIT: I was just tinkering and I'll have to keep it as a table. Using tabs instead of a table means that if I have a long duration or something it causes the tabs to bump out and I'll have to constantly tinker with the tab spacing. It will just be easier to keep it as a table. Not that this makes a bit of difference, to y'all. It's just a layout thing.

 

EDIT EDIT: All sample layouts in the next post.

[Rapier]

 

Option A

Animal Friendship
Range: Touch	College: Enchantment/Charm
Casting Time: 1 Hour	Magic Skill: -1
DCV: ½	Mana Cost: 3
Duration: Permanent	Area of Effect: 1 Animal
Components: V, S, M (Mistletoe and Piece of Food)
Description: By means of this spell...
Build:

 

Option B

Animal Friendship
College: Enchantment/Charm
Components: V, S, M (Mistletoe and Piece of Food)
Range: Touch	DCV: ½
Casting Time: 1 Hour	Area of Effect: 1 Animal
Magic Skill: -1	Duration: Permanent
Mana Cost: 3
Description: By means of this spell...
Build:

 

Option C

Detect Snares and Pits (Divination)
Range: 14m	DCV: ½
Casting Time: Full Phase	Mana Cost: 4
Magic Skill: -2	Area of Effect: 2m x 14m Line
Duration: 20 Minutes + 1 Minute/Success
Components: V, S, M (Mistletoe)
Description: Upon casting this spell, the druid is able to detect snares and pits along the 2m wide by 14m long area of effect path and thus avoid such deadfalls. Note that in the underground only simple pits, not all forms of traps, would be detected by means of this spell. Outdoors, the spell detects all forms of traps - deadfalls, missile trips, snares, etc. The spell lasts for 20 minutes +1 minute per level of success.
Build:

Is there other information that would be important for you to know as a spell caster? I've still got spells broken in "Levels" so there are still 3rd level spells (accessed by either a Perk or Talent purchase with sfx being a specific amount of study or access to training and skill). Would spell level be important enough to include in header? 

 

One of my problems is that College and Components can be long fields. Some of the Colleges are Enchantment/Charm/Abjuration or Alteration/Conjuration/Summoning. Do I abbreaviate?

 

I'm kind of leaning towards Option C at this point. College is displayed prominently, Components has an entire row so there is enough space. The left column is casting/targetting information. The right column is effects (DCV, Mana Cost, and Duration). What about having classic AD&D fields (Range, Casting Time, AoE) on the left and Hero fields (DCV, Magic Skill, Mana Cost) on the right? That would have some organisation and still leave me with Duration and Components as full width fields. Or put components under spell name? I just don't know any more. I've been looking at this too long.

 

I promise. I'll stop spamming now and let you actually have time to think.

 

EDIT: UGH. Duration doesn't fit in a split column. Had to swap AoE and Duration.

[Rapier]

Crickets: Hearing Group Flash 12d6, Area Of Effect (12m Radius; +3/4) (63 Active Points)

 

I'm just going to assume that silence is agreement.  

 

I believe option c (above) is the best. I briefly considered putting the mini columns in alphabetical order (casting time, magic skill, range and AoE, DCV, Mana Cost) but decided that was the OCD Demon and not an actual good idea. I'm pretty happy with that layout and it's pretty close to the one used in AD&D. Because of the conversion to Hero I needed to add a couple of fields, but I think this works. At the end of the day, I don't think it REALLY matters. People who use this will get used to seeing AoE at the bottom of the right column and it won't be strange. I'm just obsessing (partly because I'd prefer to get this locked down before I start filling in fields! :)).

 

I've got the framework (in 2 columns) for the Illusionist spells done and all the description are in. There are only 65 spells (plus the ten magic-user spells) and even a LARGE number of those (eyeballing it says 1/3 to 1/2) are just version of magic-user and a couple of cleric spells. So building should be VERY quick.

 

I've also started to let me brain chew on the classes and how I am going to handle 'levels' in Hero and I think I have found a pretty elegant solution. I think you will like it. See that teaser? It's to make you come back for more!

 

[Scott Ruggels]

yeah it used to be 1 in was 10 feet. and most Dungeon Master maps were notebooked on quarter inch square graph paper.

[dmjalund]

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

yeah it used to be 1 in was 10 feet. and most Dungeon Master maps were notebooked on quarter inch square graph paper.

didn't it become 10 yards when you went outside?

[Rapier]

1 minute ago, dmjalund said:

didn't it become 10 yards when you went outside?

Yes, it was truly fubarred. I've been struggling this whole time with their system of measures. The same spell description can talk about 1" (ie 1 indoor mat inch = 10'), 1" (ie 1 outdoor mat inch = 2 yards, iirc it was 'horse sized') 1" (an actual inch), 1' (an actual foot). It's maddening. 

[Rapier]

4 spells to go and Illusionists are done! The last 4 are a bit intricate, so I'm going to take a break. Most of these spells are copies from Magic-User spells so there is quite a bit of proofreading to be done still to make sure I made all the changes. I might take off from spells a bit and work on the other stuff. I'm a bit spelled out.

[Rapier]

SPELLS ARE FINITO!! 

 

 

At least the entry. There is still some proofreading and such that needs to be done but they are all entered. Phew!

[Scott Ruggels]

8 hours ago, dmjalund said:

didn't it become 10 yards when you went outside?

The the earliest D$D campaigns used the hex based board from the board game Wilderness Survival as its campaign map. 

[Rapier]

Ok, so I'm working on some of the sourcebook things because I needed a spell break.

 

If I were to add in some of the skills/proficiencies from further editions, which ones and from what sourcebook? I'm looking to run things pretty lean, but I figured that some of them might be worth adding (if for no other reason than to showcase Hero).

[Toxxus]

Sorry if I missed it, but is there a place where we can see / buy your completed list of converted spells?

 

Will you be giving it a stab for D&D 5th Edition?

[Rapier]

On 1/29/2019 at 10:25 AM, Toxxus said:

Sorry if I missed it, but is there a place where we can see / buy your completed list of converted spells?

 

Will you be giving it a stab for D&D 5th Edition?

 

There is no place, yet. I'm still proofreading and such. The plan is to publish (in some fashion) a sourcebook in the near future.

 

I'm not sure about converting 5th Edition. I've got none of the source material and I've not played it at all.

[Toxxus]

4 minutes ago, Rapier said:

I'm not sure about converting 5th Edition. I've got none of the source material and I've not played it at all.

 

5th edition is simplified quite a bit, but overall it's a considerable net positive.  The number of casual players has absolutely exploded over the last couple years.

 

Anyway, keep us posted.  I'd love to see what you came up with.

[Rapier]

I haz been busy. Even when they closed everything down for snow I was too busy to get anywhere near this. Things should slow down a bit in the next day or two and I should have some time. End of the week is better for me, so I'm hoping to have some more sent over to proofread then.