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Martial artists and defense


Tech

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I'm thoroughly enjoying the posts by unclevlad, Lucius, and others who seem to insist that the terminology/distinction for 'scrapper' is unique to me.  It isn't.  Here's a little bit of supporting evidence (colourized emphases added by me):

"Scrapper - a solid all around hand to hand fighter, he has average attack and DEF but is not a true brick. Luke Cage is the classic example."  Source: These very forums, in the following thread: 


And then there's this, too: 

"... such a character is a hybrid of archetypes. He has Brick-like defenses, but attack abilities like a martial artist or perhaps a weapons master." Source: These very forums, in the following thread:

 


My point is (and has been throughout this thread) that solid/high defenses tend to be the realm of scrappers (and bricks, since I just brought it up via a thread post), while avoidance of getting hit tends to be the realm of martial artists (and speedsters, since it was brought up by another in the thread).  I believe the cited posts shows that others share that perspective … and that the terminology/distinction is NOT unique to me.  But keep hammering away if you like rather than embracing a common enough concept within super hero gaming.  It's probably worth a looksee at the STR and the defenses of some of the builds put forth in the second thread, as well … to see how they tend to fall.

Have fun!

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Never claimed it was unique to you. Claimed it's not universal.

 

And to return to my already used metaphor, if I divide a bunch of balls up by color and then point at the bins and say "see?" I'm not proving anything about the balls themselves, just about how I chose to divide them up. If a hundred or a thousand people were assisting me and using the same system to divide up the balls, that STILL doesn't prove anything about the balls, it just proves that a hundred or a thousand or however many people agreed to divide them up that way.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary starts sorting the balls by size instead.

 

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On 12/27/2018 at 12:49 PM, Tech said:

Regarding Martial Artists, they generally have the highest DCV of heroes. I've seen some nauseating DCV's though, where the martial artist can regularly fight at DCV 15, 17 or even 20 (or higher) while attacking. I'm curious why more of the write-ups for martial artists don't include Combat Luck, instead of more DCV. It fights right in with the general concept. With a nice amount of Combat Luck, you have an opponent that is "just barely avoiding getting hit". Like any other power, there are many different ways a special effect can be applied. Likewise, a martial artists with Damage Reduction is a viable option instead of heaping DCV levels on. I'm found through the years that martial artists, in general, have something of a one-upmanship versus each other DCV-wise.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

In general, there are two categories of defense (though I postulate a third but I'll mention this smaller category later).

 

The first category is sometimes termed an active defense.  It is the category where the target tries not to be hit in t he first place.  This includes High DCV, High MDCVs, dodging, blocking, desolidification, etc; i.e. preventing the need to resist the damage because no damage takes place.

 

The second category is sometimes termed as passive defenses.  It the category where the target resists or mitigates the damage.  This includes PD, ED, resistant defenses, damage reduction, damage negation, Combat Luck, Mental Defense, Power defense, etc.  There is no way to avoid the damage, so you resist the damage that is coming.

 

GMs generally do not like players to have a high value in both because it makes it hard for the villains to affect the hero without the villains resorting to twiddly attacks (ex: the AVAD with the defense being hardened impenetrable touch flash defense).

 

NOTE: There is a third category which is to withstand the attack.  The idea is that even if you take 30 Stun past defenses (in a 12d6 campaign for example), the target with 180 Stun, 60 Rec, and 60 CON will basically ignore the attack.  (PS: I have a couple of villains like this.  They annoy the players.)

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I was reading through the 6th edition Champions book when this little gem popped out on page 143:

 

Quote

The Artful Dodger: This character has comparatively low defenses, and perhaps doesn't even make them Resistant. He also has tremendous DCV and a formidable array of Combat Skill Levels. When he goes into battle, he just can't be hit -- in the comic books, anyway. In Champions campaigns, unlike the comics, the writer (the GM) doesn't have direct control over the actions of the heroes (the PCs), or even over some events because of the use of dice as a randomizing element. So, a villain inevitably makes a very low Attack Roll, or uses an Area of Effect attack, and tags our hero, splattering him all over the nearest brick wall. The easiest way to resolve this problem is to require the character to buy some directly defensive abilities -- typically Combat Luck, Damage Negation, or Damage Reduction -- with the special effect of "the attack just missed me" (instead of "it hit me but I soak up the damage"). Some Limitations on the power, like Requires A Roll, may be appropriate.

 

The high DCV martial artist is great up until his or her personal DCV doesn't matter. A GM can also easily fix DCV escalation by applying defense campaign limits. The campaigns I'm in tie the DCV max to your speed. The higher your speed, the more avoidance-defense you can have. The lower your speed, the more soak-defense you can have. Those who want to play both fast and invulnerable have to compromise on both.

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On 1/8/2019 at 11:34 AM, Lucius said:

 

Never claimed it was unique to you. Claimed it's not universal.

 

And to return to my already used metaphor, if I divide a bunch of balls up by color and then point at the bins and say "see?" I'm not proving anything about the balls themselves, just about how I chose to divide them up. If a hundred or a thousand people were assisting me and using the same system to divide up the balls, that STILL doesn't prove anything about the balls, it just proves that a hundred or a thousand or however many people agreed to divide them up that way.

 

 

 

We had the exact same issue in the "favorite archetype" thread a while back.  Several of them led to confusion and/or further explanation.  

 

When you say scrapper, I think a street fighter.  Never spent a day in a fancy-prancy prissy-ass SCHOOL to learn this;  would punch you in the mouth if you called him a martial artist.  Doesn't mean he doesn't have his own set of exceptionally well-developed and effective moves.  Probably doesn't block...might feint tho, and call ya a sucker when you fall for it.

 

But he might have the exact same build.  Even down to the same 1 or 2 dice of combat luck.  HIS is defined as "finding whatever's around to mess with the other guy"...sand in the face, slip a rug out, and so on.  Your martial artist might define it as reading the opponent.

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Surrealone what editions for sample characters are you thinking of when you look at your definition of Martial Artist? Because off the top of my head, if you look at 3rd with the Enemies books, you Have Green Dragon, Mongoose, Cheshire Cat & Dragon Master which very well fit your definition. However if you just went by the BBB, with Green Dragon,  Cheshire Cat, Powerhouse, Seeker and El Muerro Obsucro, I would make a case that that edition wouldn’t give you your definition of typical Martial Artist.

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On 1/9/2019 at 6:57 PM, dsatow said:

The first category is sometimes termed an active defense.  It is the category where the target tries not to be hit in t he first place.  This includes High DCV, High MDCVs, dodging, blocking, desolidification, etc; i.e. preventing the need to resist the damage because no damage takes place.

 

The second category is sometimes termed as passive defenses.  It the category where the target resists or mitigates the damage.  This includes PD, ED, resistant defenses, damage reduction, damage negation, Combat Luck, Mental Defense, Power defense, etc.  There is no way to avoid the damage, so you resist the damage that is coming.

 

What about powers that use an active SFX with passive mechanics? 

 

Improved Blocking Technique:  Resistant Protection (3 PD) (6 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Unarmed attacks only; -1), Costs Endurance (-1/2) (2 points)

The character's skill at blocking attacks makes it difficult to land a full-power shot on him.

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On 1/12/2019 at 5:28 AM, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

What about powers that use an active SFX with passive mechanics? 

 

Improved Blocking Technique:  Resistant Protection (3 PD) (6 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Unarmed attacks only; -1), Costs Endurance (-1/2) (2 points)

The character's skill at blocking attacks makes it difficult to land a full-power shot on him.

 

Even if the SFX is active, it's a passive defense.  The criteria is resisting damage or avoiding getting hit (not counting the soaking the damage third class I postulated).

 

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