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Flying Dodge to enter Combat


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So Flying Dodge is used to escape a group of attackers or a ranged attack, etc... that is why the manoeuvre was made.

 

But what if a Character wanted to use it to move/leap into combat? Say a group of Goblins are rushing at the party and the Character wants to leap right into an opening in the middle of the group? So basically they get their full movement (assuming it was on their turn and they hadn't acted yet, or they are aborting to do so) and when they land in the middle of the group they have the +DCV against any and all attacks until their next action. Would you allow them to use Flying Dodge to do so? As far as I can tell nothing in the rules prevents this, and it seems kind of a cool use for the ability. 

 

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I don't think that Martial Arts is really unbalancing at all.  It is available to everyone so that right there means it is pretty balanced.  Consider the Multipower below which could be used instead o

You guys are basically arguing over a single digit number of points.  That's generally a waste of time, as there isn't a game system out there that can balance things with that degree of accuracy.  No

Let's be completely honest:   By strictest definition, "martial arts" is the "art" of combat or art of regimented military tactics.  Taken more loosely, a martial artist is someone who has s

1 hour ago, cptpatriot said:

I see no issue with using Flying Dodge in that way, but it also goes to show how abusive the Flying Dodge maneuver can be. It is a very cheap way to get extra DCVand still perform a full move.

 

I agree, I actually feel that way about pretty much all Martial Arts maneuvers. Way to cheap for the for the benefits given but they are part of the rules and completely cutting them out of a campaign makes some people upset. 

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Just now, mallet said:

 

I agree, I actually feel that way about pretty much all Martial Arts maneuvers. Way too cheap for the for the benefits given but they are part of the rules and completely cutting them out of a campaign makes some people upset. 

 

 

That's why when a person uses a Flying Dodge to attempt to move away from an attack, I decided that the person is subject to attack anywhere along the path of movement, even at the endpoints.

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Flying Dodge is broken not because it allows a character to move with high DCV.  That's fine, since it precludes attacking. 

What makes Flying Dodge broken is the ability to abort to movement without playing by the rules of Dive For Cover.  As long as the PC isn't using Flying Dodge for that, it's fine. 

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Correction: A close reading of the rules in Ultimate Martial Artist for the FMove tag indicates that you cannot abort to a Flying Dodge to gain a FMove.  FMove indicates that the maneuver can be taken during or after a Full Move, not that the maneuver includes a  Full Move. 

Since you already can't abort to a Full Move, aborting to a Flying Dodge thus does not provide movement. 

 

My objections to the maneuver are now gone. 

 

Further correction: Writeup for Flying Dodge says you can abort to movement, but this doesn't prevent the attack, but does change range modifiers for ranged attacks.  I don't feel any of this follows from the maneuver's specifications, but this is vaguely balanced so w/e. 

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21 hours ago, mallet said:

 

I agree, I actually feel that way about pretty much all Martial Arts maneuvers. Way to cheap for the for the benefits given but they are part of the rules and completely cutting them out of a campaign makes some people upset. 

I don't think that Martial Arts is really unbalancing at all.  It is available to everyone so that right there means it is pretty balanced.  Consider the Multipower below which could be used instead of Martial Arts to pretty awesome effect.

 

16   Martial Arts:  Multipower, 20-point reserve,  (20 Active Points); all slots Only To Augment HTH Standard Maneuvers (-1/4)

     3V   Accurate:  +4 OCV (20 Active Points); Only To Augment HTH Standard Maneuvers (-1/4)

     3V   Evasive:  +4 DCV (20 Active Points); Only To Augment HTH Standard Maneuvers (-1/4)

     3V   Strong:  +20 STR (20 Active Points); Only To Augment HTH Standard Maneuvers (-1/4)

     3V   Powerful:  Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6 (20 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4), Only To Augment HTH Standard Maneuvers (-1/4)

     3V   Lethal:  Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6+1 (2d6 w/STR) (20 Active Points); Only To Augment HTH Standard Maneuvers (-1/4)

 

In this example the character could use any one of the slots to bolster his HTH prowess or mix and match them (because they are Variable slots) to great effect.

 

Martial Strike - +2d6, +2 DCV when performing Strike

Fast Strike - +2 OCV, +2d6 when performing Strike

Martial Block - +2 OCV, +2 DCV when performing Block

Martial Dodge - +4 DCV (Total of +7!) when performing Dodge

Martial Grab - +1 OCV, +1 DCV, +10 STR when performing Grab

Offensive Strike - +4d6 when performing Strike

Killing Strike - 2d6KA when performing Strike

 

If you want to make it even more powerful you could drop the limitation and voila!  You have the ability to do a Flying Dodge.  Sure, it costs more than your average Martial Arts package but it doesn't have the Negatives on any of the maneuvers either.

 

Just my $.02,

 

Deadman

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4 hours ago, Deadman said:

I don't think that Martial Arts is really unbalancing at all.  It is available to everyone so that right there means it is pretty balanced.  Consider the Multipower below which could be used instead of Martial Arts to pretty awesome effect.

A, things being available to everyone doesn't mean they're not balanced.  If there were a Thought Blast power that functioned like Mental Blast in every way but cost 1 AP per 2d6, that would clearly be unbalanced.  And it'd cause issues, because it being available to "everybody" would mean that players would have to choose "Do I want to pay significantly more for my damage or do I want to play another mentalist?" every time they made a character. 

B, MA isn't available to everybody.  There are no provisions for "gun fu" in 6E core.  There are no allowances for "mind kung fu" anywhere I know of.  You could try to work something out with your GM, but that requires he be willing to disregard the holy truth of What Is Written.  Benefiting from martial arts requires your character be a hand to hand combatant. 

 

I also question the validity of your setup.  First, I as GM wouldn't permit the limitation you propose: What else are you going to do with OCV or hand attack?  And how will you use the HKA when there's no standard HTH maneuver that does killing damage? 

It's also far larger than an "average Martial Arts package" as you yourself said.  I find that MA's balance issues tend to come up with small MA sets.  For example, how would you replicate the MA set of Flying Dodge, Fast Strike, Weapon Element?  That's 10 points for a truckload of benefit. 

 

The issues with MA are that it's too efficient in small packages and it has a tendency to play outside the rules such as with Legsweep's auto-tripping and Flying Dodge's aborting to movement. 

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41 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

A, things being available to everyone doesn't mean they're not balanced.  If there were a Thought Blast power that functioned like Mental Blast in every way but cost 1 AP per 2d6, that would clearly be unbalanced.  And it'd cause issues, because it being available to "everybody" would mean that players would have to choose "Do I want to pay significantly more for my damage or do I want to play another mentalist?" every time they made a character. 

Sure it does.  It may not fit your concept but it is available to you.  If you want to gimp your character by not taking it that is your problem, right?  Now I do get where you are coming from. In a perfect system every character created with a set number of points should be every bit as capable as another character with the same number of points, right?  I can't tell you how many characters I have rejected that have all had a combination of Desolidification and Invisibility.  At one point it seemed like a standard for characters that were being submitted for my games.  But ultimately I don't see every character coming in with Martial Arts and that leads me to believe that it isn't that unbalancing.  Can it be powerful?  Sure, but the more flexibility you buy with it (meaning more maneuvers) the more you pay for it and the more balanced it becomes.

50 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

B, MA isn't available to everybody.  There are no provisions for "gun fu" in 6E core.  There are no allowances for "mind kung fu" anywhere I know of.  You could try to work something out with your GM, but that requires he be willing to disregard the holy truth of What Is Written.  Benefiting from martial arts requires your character be a hand to hand combatant.

"Gun Fu" is certainly available as presented in Hero System Martial Arts, which is considered a Core book.  Strength also requires your character be a hand to hand combatant, it just costs points to increase just as Martial Arts does.

58 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I also question the validity of your setup.  First, I as GM wouldn't permit the limitation you propose: What else are you going to do with OCV or hand attack?  And how will you use the HKA when there's no standard HTH maneuver that does killing damage? 

It's also far larger than an "average Martial Arts package" as you yourself said.  I find that MA's balance issues tend to come up with small MA sets.  For example, how would you replicate the MA set of Flying Dodge, Fast Strike, Weapon Element?  That's 10 points for a truckload of benefit.

Well OCV can be used for ranged attacks right?  The limitation ensures that it can't.  Some people may see a Hand Attack like a touch taser which may not require a Strike, in this case you would have to use a Strike to do damage.  It represents that it adds only to other damage dealt and cannot do damage by itself.  I think the -1/4 is a pretty good representation overall.  If you don't that is your prerogative.  The HKA itself makes the Strike maneuver do Killing.

 

Yes, it is more expensive but not dramatically so.  The rules state that you must take at least 10 points of maneuvers to take any Martial Arts so that helps reign in many of the abuses of characters.  So just taking Flying Dodge and Fast Strike (since the Weapon Element is not included per the rules) (6Ev1 pg. 82).  I also find it ironic that you say that Ranged Martial Arts isn't allowed but you include two Maneuvers that are only available through HSMA.

 

As for how I would construct that set without using Martial Arts.  A 2 slot Multipower with one +4 DCV slot and another slot with +2 OCV and 2DC of Hand Attack.  Probably 15 points or so.

 

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8 minutes ago, Deadman said:

Can it be powerful?  Sure, but the more flexibility you buy with it (meaning more maneuvers) the more you pay for it and the more balanced it becomes.

Emphasis mine.  If it becomes more balanced, then it's starting at a point of imbalance. 

 

11 minutes ago, Deadman said:

"Gun Fu" is certainly available as presented in Hero System Martial Arts, which is considered a Core book.  Strength also requires your character be a hand to hand combatant, it just costs points to increase just as Martial Arts does.

When I said "core" I meant 6E1 and 6E2 only.  The bare minimum needed to play HERO 6E.  If "core" normally has different meanings in HERO discussion, my apologies for my miscommunication.  My argument is that a group with the basics needed to play will have no access to anything that indicates ranged MA is available. 

Strength can be used to throw things and add dice to HTHAs and HKAs that were bought with range.  It's only 6 points of PSLs to negate the worst possible modifier for unsuitable thrown object, too.  A strong character is by no means restricted to HTH. 

 

24 minutes ago, Deadman said:

It represents that it adds only to other damage dealt and cannot do damage by itself.  The HKA itself makes the Strike maneuver do Killing.

This is a contradiction. 

 

25 minutes ago, Deadman said:

I also find it ironic that you say that Ranged Martial Arts isn't allowed but you include two Maneuvers that are only available through HSMA.

I am advancing multiple lines of argument.  Substitute in Defensive Strike, +1 DC, Weapon Element if you insist on 6E1/2 material.  That's 22 AP 20 real of power there, you can't pack that into 10 real without some pretty extreme limitations that the MA just doesn't have. 

 

28 minutes ago, Deadman said:

As for how I would construct that set without using Martial Arts.  A 2 slot Multipower with one +4 DCV slot and another slot with +2 OCV and 2DC of Hand Attack.  Probably 15 points or so.

What limitation are you proposing for the MP reserve?  I can't think of any that seem valid given how different the slots are. 

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Gnome BODY:

 

For starters:  I _don't_ disagree with you.  At least, not entirely.  I don't disagree with either of you, really, at least not at the core of what either of you is saying.

 

I just wanted to toss this in:

 

Rather than building it as CV with and without minuses, etc--

 

if I recall correctly (and I may not.  In spite of every genre book left unattended for a year or two turning into 4e Ninja HERO, I've only read the thing ...  well, every new player (male) wants to dabble in it for a bit, so I've read it a couple of times, but it's been a _long_ time since I've studied it.  Shorter version: If I recall correctly....) Martial Arts Maneuvers were essentially CSLs given fancy names and sold off something like Package Deals:  Here's a bunch of CSLs; here's how they're allocated; here's a small discount for taking them.

 

 

As I mentioned in another thread, Martial Arts and its related minutiae was never really appealing to me or most of my players, even in Heroic level stuff (which, for the record, is the bulk of my play).  We decided "Martial Arts" was a 3pt skill that gains you a style and lore and all that knowledge / background-y stuff.  Generally, a "martial artist" in our games has some CSLs he can throw around (usually moreso than other characters and a block of HTH attack that he uses at whatever level he cares to use it at with each maneuver.

 

You know what?  It doesn't seem to matter.  I've got one player in my Brunswick game who plays under another GM regularly, and the other guy does it "book-wise."  By his admission, either way is just as satisfying, as the narrative of the fight is more entertaining than the math.  Plus he's not limited by STR bonuses, etc: his block of HTH is as big or as small as he wants it to be, which he decides by the theme of the particular campaign.

 

No one has to learn or track any special maneuvers or special rules, etc.

 

But I'm seriously digressing here.  My fullest and most heartfelt apology.  I only popped in to mention that-- again, if I remember _correctly_ -- the first "martial maneuvers" were built off of CSLs and not raw CV.  (CV can't add damage elements, etc)

 

 

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Just now, Duke Bushido said:

 

Asking because I'm ignorant on 6e:

 

Does the reserve _have_ to be limited?

It doesn't have to be, but if it isn't then the cost will be at least 22 real.  The only way to get the reserve to cost less than 20 real would be to put a limitation on the reserve that applies to all the slots, or some really esoteric limitation on the reserve only, so I'm trying to figure out how he's getting his 15 real estimate. 

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5 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

It doesn't have to be, but if it isn't then the cost will be at least 22 real.  The only way to get the reserve to cost less than 20 real would be to put a limitation on the reserve that applies to all the slots, or some really esoteric limitation on the reserve only, so I'm trying to figure out how he's getting his 15 real estimate. 

He could very readily apply the following to the reserve: Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; -1/4) … and then give each slot a -1/2 limitation. There's nothing esoteric about that, at all, by the way … and it's in line with his (more than reasonable) Only To Augment HTH Standard Maneuvers (-1/4).  Frankly, he should have given that a value of -1/2 (instead of -1/4), since the very same limitation (i.e. HTH Only … and its equivalent: Ranged Only) is applied by RAW, itself, to certain things at -1/2 value.

 

The limitation (at -1/2) is absolutely appropriate on the OCV, DCV, and STR slots.  It's probably worth only -1/4 on the HA and KA slots since the HTH piece isn't the limiting part, there; instead it's the Standard Maneuvers portion of his phraseology that would matter for the HA and KA slots …. since they are already HTH.  Why? Because limiting them to only HTH Standard Maneuvers means you can't use them to augment non-standard maneuvers (which would mean it couldn't apply to martial maneuvers, optional maneuvers, and the like … which is, indeed, limiting in most combats and, thus, worth something).  Thus, he'd be good to go on all slots except the KA slot, where he'd need to come up with another -1/4 limitation … perhaps Incantations: Must Make An Audible Kiai (-1/4) … to represent having to produce a loud shout when delivering a killing strike designed to do body to, say, break a board, a bone, or whatever.

 

You seem to be trying very hard to find fault with Deadman's angle on this rather than trying equally as hard to see what he's saying.  The man has a solid point, IMHO. 

 

Also, the bare minimum, cost-wise, required to play Hero is (wait for it) … Hero Designer plus the HERO System 6th Edition Bundle: Character Creation/Combat and Adventuring PDF.  Going this route is actually cheaper than locating and procuring hardcopies of 6e1 and 6e2 while providing far more options, build-wise, thanks to HD's incorporation of things beyond 6e1 and 6e2.  (And if you noticed, neither 6e1 nor 6e2 are available on this site for purchase.  If you can locate hardcopies, they'll cost a pile!) I suppose you could try to go the Champions Complete route … but as I've already noted in other threads, it's missing a number of things and, thus, not actually complete … especially since no corrective errata has been posted, to my knowledge.

Enjoy!

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13 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

 Substitute in Defensive Strike, +1 DC, Weapon Element if you insist on 6E1/2 material.  That's 22 AP 20 real of power there, you can't pack that into 10 real without some pretty extreme limitations that the MA just doesn't have.

 

Your combination is not RAW legal.  10 points of maneuvers - not weapon elements, or DCs. or skill levels, or knowledge of martial arts, or any other purchase - 10 points of maneuvers, alone.  To quote the RAW, [6eV1 p 82]

 

Quote

Characters must buy a minimum of 10 Active Points’ worth of Martial Maneuvers (even if it’s just two 5-point maneuvers). Extra Damage Classes, Weapon Elements, and the like do not count toward this total; he must spend at least 10 points on actual maneuvers.

 

Exact duplication of martial maneuvers is challenging at best, but let's try +4 levels with Strike, Trip (normally -1 OCV, -2 DCV) and Dodge for 12 points and +1d6 Hand Attack (4 points), for a total of 16 points.  These maneuvers can already be used with weapons, so no weapon element is needed (and I can use any weapon, not just one for which the weapon element was purchased).  That will achieve:

 

 - your Defensive Strike combo above (Strike, +1 OCV, +3 DCV, +1d6 from Hand Attack)

 - Flying Dodge (put the four levels in DCV while making a full move)

 - I don't have Fast Strike in front of me, but +3 OCV, +1 DCV should do the trick (assuming it's the reverse Defensive Strike)

 - 2 levels to DCV and 2 to damage gets me +2 DCV and +2 DCs (1 from levels and the other from the Hand Attack), which is a Martial Strike

 - and multiple other combinations, such as +4 OCV (something no martial maneuver does) for that hard to hit target, +4 DCV when I need it more than enhanced OCV, etc.

 

Pay an extra 2 points and I get 6 HTH levels instead of the +1 Hand Attack.  Now I can get a +9 DCV Dodge, a +6 DCV "flying dodge", up to +6 OCV or DCV at normal damage, an extra 3d6 damage at  normal CVs, etc. 

 

I have not used Trip yet.  All of your examples only needed two maneuvers, so I could pick Block, or Disarm, or Dodge (+7 DCV beats Martial Dodge hands down), or Choke, or Grab, or Escape, or Throw.  I could also apply my bonuses to all maneuvers by making my levels with a specific type of weapon (since you wanted a weapon element anyway), such as "all swords", by RAW.  6 skill levels will get me all of the CV mods from the relevant martial version of the maneuver.  Bonuses to STR are tougher (although I would be tempted to allow skill levels for DCs to enhance STR for maneuvers that do no damage, that's not RAW).

 

But let's use Trip...

 

+3 to OCV, +3 to DCV and I get the same OCV/DCV as a sacrifice throw.  No Strike, but I don't have to fall prone.

+3 OCV gets me the same OCV/DCV as Legsweep - no damage, but I have an extra 3 CV to assign.

A Multiple Attack combining a Strike and a Trip halves my DCV, takes a full phase and imposes -2 on my OCV.  I can offset that -2 with 2 levels to OCV, slap another 3 OCV in to get back to the +2 from Legsweep and toss the remaining one in OCV to have a better chance to hit, or DCV if that will round my DCV up one more.  Still not as good as a Legsweep, but a pretty decent simulation.

 

It's a servicable Throw, although I can't get distance.  Using Grab instead of Trip, I could:

 

 - massively enhance CV over a Martial Grab;

 - slightly enhance Martial Grab CV and add 2 DC to a Squeeze;

 - duplicate a Legsweep (3 levels to OCV, 2 for +1 DC, 1 left over for OCV or DCV, throw grabbed target to the ground);

 - get a better CV (and/or +1 DC) martial throw, but without the velocity damage aspect;

 - duplicate the Sacrifice Throw (+3 to OCV, +2 to DCV, one CV left over) and Throw the target to the ground - I get the STR strike and I do not have to fall prone myself.

 

Seems like a bunch of skill levels can duplicate a lot of benefits from a variety of martial maneuvers.  I spent 18 points, rather than 10, but I got a lot more versatility than you did.

 

15 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

It's also far larger than an "average Martial Arts package" as you yourself said.  I find that MA's balance issues tend to come up with small MA sets.  For example, how would you replicate the MA set of Flying Dodge, Fast Strike, Weapon Element?  That's 10 points for a truckload of benefit.

 

Illegally, since I cannot buy only 9 points of maneuvers, plus I have to persuade my GM to go beyond the core rulebooks.

 

I think my 18 points on skill levels gets a lot more benefits.

 

However, if you think there is too great an advantage at 10 points minimum spent on maneuvers, with this diminishing as more maneuvers are purchased, there looks to be a really easy solution, don't you think?

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You guys are basically arguing over a single digit number of points.  That's generally a waste of time, as there isn't a game system out there that can balance things with that degree of accuracy.  Not do that and offer lots of different character build options.

 

The primary factor affecting game balance is going to be what the GM allows in his game.  In heroic games, single digit balancing issues could theoretically have an impact (if you only have 150 points, a 6 point difference is small but still there).  But those games have less flexibility in allowed builds, and anyway available equipment is going to be a much bigger influencing factor.  In superheroic games the differences are so small that it's not even really noticeable.

 

I think there's a myth that Champions players want to believe in, that somewhere out there is the perfect balance point that can be achieved if only we make this little rule change.  That myth is harmful because it makes players focus on very minor issues, and eventually that affects the next version of the rules.

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19 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

A, things being available to everyone doesn't mean they're not balanced.  If there were a Thought Blast power that functioned like Mental Blast in every way but cost 1 AP per 2d6, that would clearly be unbalanced.  And it'd cause issues, because it being available to "everybody" would mean that players would have to choose "Do I want to pay significantly more for my damage or do I want to play another mentalist?" every time they made a character. 

B, MA isn't available to everybody.  There are no provisions for "gun fu" in 6E core.  There are no allowances for "mind kung fu" anywhere I know of.  You could try to work something out with your GM, but that requires he be willing to disregard the holy truth of What Is Written.  Benefiting from martial arts requires your character be a hand to hand combatant. 

 

I also question the validity of your setup.  First, I as GM wouldn't permit the limitation you propose: What else are you going to do with OCV or hand attack?  And how will you use the HKA when there's no standard HTH maneuver that does killing damage? 

It's also far larger than an "average Martial Arts package" as you yourself said.  I find that MA's balance issues tend to come up with small MA sets.  For example, how would you replicate the MA set of Flying Dodge, Fast Strike, Weapon Element?  That's 10 points for a truckload of benefit. 

 

The issues with MA are that it's too efficient in small packages and it has a tendency to play outside the rules such as with Legsweep's auto-tripping and Flying Dodge's aborting to movement. 

 

Well he doesn't need the Hand Attack slot at all, the Strength slot will work just fine.  So even if you don't like the "only with standard maneuvers" limitation, that still gets rid of a 3 point slot.  That puts his multipower at 36 points total instead of 31, and he can make his killing strike a fixed slot to bring it down to 34.  And that's assuming he can't come up with a different -1/4 limitation that fits all the slots.  I think a simple "doesn't stack with other maneuver bonuses" would work fine.  So his extra Str doesn't work with a haymaker, his DCV doesn't work with a dodge, his OCV doesn't work the 'set' maneuver, etc.

 

A limited number of martial art maneuvers can be very effective.  Personally I like martial strike, martial block, and one of martial throw, martial grab, legsweep, or martial dodge.  That's 11 points of maneuvers (12 if martial dodge is chosen) and it really increases your effectiveness in combat.  But as you add more and more maneuvers, the cost effectiveness goes down the tubes.  It quickly becomes more effective to just buy more OCV/DCV and more of your damaging attack.  The sweet spot for martial arts is a pretty small window.

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16 hours ago, Surrealone said:

 

Also, the bare minimum, cost-wise, required to play Hero is (wait for it) … Hero Designer
 

 

Do you mean the bare minimum financially or rules-wise? (serious question).

 

Because I neither have nor want that damned thing and I have more trouble finding new players than I do actually playing.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I'm a 5E player and so leaving this thread since it's blindingly obvious that not having memorized the edition I don't play is leading to me being edition-differenced to death. 

 

Historically speaking, I'm the loudest voice for a return to 2e on the board; it's what I play.  It's what I like.

 

I still like to engage in conversations when I can, as I might be able to help someone.  Or, more enjoyably, learn something I can use or see something from an angle I hadn't considered.

 

I like to read some conversations that I don't participate in at all for pretty much the same reasons.

 

Though honestly, you could make a thousand-fold improvement in 6e just by bringing back COM.

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