Maxima and Other Things

[Hugh Neilson]

Lucius' Florist Friars are facetious, of course, but a good example of how NCM does not do the job.  I've copied these below for those who have not seen them before.  I believe these are the 5e versions.

 

We are now presented with a 40 STR character, and one with 6 SPD.  Was that what we expected when NCM was switched on?  These have been built with the normal rules for 75 + 75 point heroic characters using NCM.

 

If, instead, we had set our character building guidelines as "75 + 75 standard heroic characters, no NCM, maximum characteristics 1.5x base levels, except that up to two can double the base level, or one can be 2.5x base levels (close to the suggestion of two primaries up to 20, or one up to 23), then Brother Rose should arrive with either a 20 DEX and 4 SPD, or a 15 DEX and 5 SPD, while Brother Orchid will have a 25 STR.

 

They will still likely be the fastest, and strongest, characters in the game, especially if the GM is enforcing niches, but they will also be the fastest and strongest as the game had envisioned the top end of those abilities, not as high as they can get by sacrificing other areas to pay double cost for the ones they want to grossly exceed campaign norms.

 

Now, I can certainly agree that, when someone says "NCM applies", the undertone is that stats this high should not be purchased,  but it is not NCM (or any other "pay extra" model) which prevents them - it is guidance as to campaign averages and campaign maxima.

 

Without further campaign guidelines, though, I can't say whether these characters are unbalanced.  Brother Orchid can do 10d6 with a Quarterstaff - what DC range were we expecting?  He doesn't have great CVs or defenses. 

 

In many fantasy games, Brother Rose's natural ability to "fly" up cliffs and walls is more likely to cause issues than his 6 SPD.  It's not like he's a combat monster with his 15 STR, a couple of maneuvers and no weapon skills.

 

Of course, if we were building for combat effectiveness, they could certainly repurpose those KS and PS points (or just add 50 points to Brother Orchid to bring him to full Heroic Character status...).

 

Quote

The Florist Friars

Brother Rose Aka ”the Flying Monk”

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

15 STR 5 12- Lift 200.0kg; 3d6 [3]
20 DEX 30 13- OCV: 7/DCV: 7
13 CON 6 12-
9 BODY -2 11-
13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6
8 COM -1 11-

3/5 PD 0 Total: 3/5 PD (0/2 rPD)
3/4 ED 0 Total: 3/4 ED (0/1 rED)
6 SPD 50 Phases: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12
6 REC 0
26 END 0
24 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 88

Movement:

 

Running: 3"/6"
Flight: 3"/12"
Leaping: 2"/4"
Swimming:1"/2"

Cost Powers END

 

9 The Flying Monk: Flight 3", x4 Noncombat, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (22 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Drain 3d6 END when fuel runs out.; -1/2), Conditional Power Only if already ran 3" that phase; Can only go noncombat if ran noncombat that phase (-1/2), Only In Contact With A Surface (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel (Secret herbal potion) Charge lasting 30 Minutes (-1/4) [1 cc]

1 No thank you, I won't stand still and let you land a solid blow...: Armor (2 PD/1 ED) (5 Active Points); Limited Power Does not stop first pt of BOD of a Killing Attack (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Drain 3d6 END when fuel runs out.; -1/2), Linked (The Flying Monk; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 30 Minutes (-1/4) [1 cc]

2 Healing Potion: Rapid Healing (5 Active Points); OAF Fragile (-1 1/4), 6 Boostable Charges (-1/2)

Notes: For some reason, Brother Rose's herbal potions seem to only be able to heal himself. Unfortunately, not everyone believes that....

He's Fast!

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

5 Flying Dodge -- +4 Dodge All, Abort; FMove
3 Martial Throw +0 +1 3d6 +v/5, Target Falls
3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab 2 Limbs, 25 STR holding

Skills

3 Breakfall 13-
3 Acrobatics 13-
3 Bureaucratics 12-
3 Paramedics 12-
3 Trading 12-
0 Language: English (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)
2 Language: Latin (fluent conversation)
3 Jack of All Trades
2 1) PS: Florist (3 Active Points) 12-
2 2) PS: Flower Arranging (3 Active Points) 12-
2 3) PS: Gardener (3 Active Points) 12-
2 4) PS: Herbalist (3 Active Points) 12-
3 Scholar
2 1) KS: Canon Law (3 Active Points) 12-
2 2) KS: Flowers (3 Active Points) 12-
2 3) KS: Herblore (3 Active Points) 12-
2 4) KS: The Fastest Routes through the City (3 Active Points) 12-

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 62

Total Cost: 150

75+ Disadvantages

0 Normal Characteristic Maxima
5 Age: 40+
15 Dependent NPC: Brother Orchid 14- (Slightly Less Powerful)
15 Psychological Limitation: Monastic Vows (Common, Strong)
5 Money: Vow of Poverty Poor
5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
10 Rivalry: Professional (Mercury Man and the FTD; Rival is Significantly More Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Unaware of Rivalry)
5 Hunted: People wanting the secret of his herbal preperations 8- (As Pow, Mildly Punish)
15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)

Total Disadvantage Points: 150

Background/History: Brother Rose gained the nickname "The Flying Monk" when he started doing the deliveries for his monastic order's floral business.

 Personality/Motivation: Brother Rose loves the Church and flowers, not necessarily in that order. He has an irrational resentment of Florist's Transworld Delivery because their symbol "Mercury Man" is a Pagan God.

Quote: May the Saint forgive me, but I hate Valentine's Day....how many more orders do I have to deliver?

Powers/Tactics: Unless he is cornered or must act to protect the innocent, Brother Rose responds to violence by running away.

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

Appearance: Brother Rose is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.
 

 

Brother Orchid aka “Brother Ox”

Val Char Cost Roll Notes

40 STR 50 17- Lift 6400.0kg; 8d6 [8]
11 DEX 3 11- OCV: 4/DCV: 4
13 CON 6 12-
10 BODY 0 11-
10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6
8 COM -1 11-

6 PD -2 Total: 6 PD (0 rPD)
4 ED 1 Total: 4 ED (0 rED)
3 SPD 9 Phases: 4, 8, 12
11 REC 0
26 END 0
37 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 67

Movement:
Running: 5"/10"
Leaping: 4"/8"
Swimming:2"/4"

Talents
6 Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED)

Skills
3 Hoist 11-
3 Jack of All Trades
2 1) PS: Florist (3 Active Points) 11-
2 2) PS: Flower Arranging (3 Active Points) 11-
2 3) PS: Gardener (3 Active Points) 11-
3 Scholar
2 1) KS: Flowers (3 Active Points) 11-
2 2) KS: Herblore (3 Active Points) 11-
2 3) KS: Monastic Traditions (worldwide) (3 Active Points) 11-
2 +1 With Grab

Total Powers & Skill Cost: 29

Total Cost: 96

50+ Disadvantages

0 Normal Characteristic Maxima
15 Psychological Limitation: Monastic Vows (Common, Strong)
5 Money: Vow of Poverty Poor
5 Distinctive Features: Monastic Habit (Easily Concealed; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
15 Hunted: Ecclesiastical Superiors 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)
10 Psychological Limitation: Looks up to Brother Rose (Common, Moderate)

Total Disadvantage Points: 50

Background/History: Brother Orchid is actually Brother Rose's nephew, and he looks up to his uncle as a wiser and more experienced monk. But he's also read about the monastic and ascetic traditions of other cultures, and is not above sometimes mischeivously annoying his uncle by comparing their own rules and rituals to those of Buddhists or Taoists.

Personality/Motivation: Curiosity about Eastern traditions aside, Brother Orchid takes his vow of Obedience very seriously. Whatever he's doing at any given moment, it's probably what someone told him to do.

Quote: No thank you brother, I can handle it. They can't weigh more than a couple hundred kilos.

Powers/Tactics: Brother Orchid is gentle by nature and if he must fight will usually try to grab and immobilize his opponent. He knows he is unusually strong and is unlikely to strike anyone with his full Strength unless frightened or severely provoked.

Campaign Use: Florist Friar

Appearance: Brother Orchid is almost always to be found in his monkish habit. Wearing it is one of his monkish habits.

Lucius Alexander

Florist Friars copyright Palindromedary Enterprises

 

 

 

[mallet]

I know I probably in the minority here, but I use Characteristic Rolls a fair amount in my games that I run. I think they are a quick way to resolve some situations based just on the characters natural ability. 

So when I have created racial packages in the past, mainly for fantasy games, although it could also be used in Sci-fi, what I would do it give bonuses to the Characteristic rolls, for example a Dwarf might get +2 to their CON & +1 to their STR rolls, An Elf +2 to INT and DEX rolls, A half-orc might get +3 to their STR rolls and -1 to INT rolls, and so on. 

 

These modifiers don't effect the Characters Stats or Skill rolls, but just effect their base natural ability in that Stat. 

 

The books for example says: 

 

Use a CON Roll whenever a character has to
perform a feat of physical hardiness or endurance.
This might include resisting poisons or diseases,
accomplishing physically arduous tasks, and so
forth.

 

So a Dwarf in my game gets +2 to those rolls because of a Dwarf's natural hardiness regardless of what his/her actual CON stat is. 

 

For INT is says:

Use INT Rolls when a character tries to employ
knowledge not specifically represented by a Skill,
or when he attempts to remember something or
figure something out (particularly when the player
is stuck on a problem and his substantially smarter
character might be able to solve it).

 

So Elves would get +2 to these rolls (I use their long lives as part of the explanation for this)

 

For DEX it says:

 

You should use DEX Rolls when a character
wants to perform a major feat of physical agility
or a task that requires a fine touch or steady hand...

 Encumbrance affects DEX Rolls.

 

So any race that is considered naturally dexterous would get bonuses to these types of rolls which can help especially when encumbrance is an issue in Fantasy games. 

 

Anyway, that is how I build Racial Packages in my games, it doesn't figure in to the characters main STAT, because there will always be a weak Dwarf or a dumb Elf (based on STATS), but there are some thing that are innate to the races based on DNA, lifespan, etc... making them naturally more effective in some situations.  

 

But I get that a lot of people don't make use of Characteristic rolls very much in their games, so this might not be the solution for them. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh again all that the Lucius florists price is that with a generic system as this is you can use the rules to your advantage be legal but if it’s breaking the intent of said game it’s still a violation. Should I bring the Landlord to your game because he is technically legal. I think in the example from BBB you still needed to bribe the GM to use him. 

[Ninja-Bear]

NCM is useful to shape players expectations and builds as a soft cap. If you don’t believe that doubling a characteristic cost affects character design, consider then Figured Characteristics And why it went away. How many people complained that it was too good of a deal to pass up? How many Olympic level heroes and villains are there because figured characteristics? Or has Rasputin level of CON?  Shoot how many players still by on 3’s and 8’s because you still get an advantage on skill rolls? (I’m pretty sure).  When 6th was being discussed and Figureds was being removed, the argument was “Now I can build a clumsy but capable fighter”. I responded with “you always could, though maybe it took more work to build”. The counter response was “with Figured it was too efficient of points so you shouldn’t build it”. In other words efficiency of points matters to concept.  So when the argument is that NCM doesn’t affect character build, I’m highly dubious.  

[Ninja-Bear]

Also Hugh I could be mistaken but NOBODY claimed that NCM would magically stop all abuses  Were just claiming that it is a tool. And to us we find it useful. If you don’t, fine then don’t use it.

[Lucius]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Also Hugh I could be mistaken but NOBODY claimed that NCM would magically stop all abuses  Were just claiming that it is a tool. And to us we find it useful. If you don’t, fine then don’t use it.

 

True, no one claims Normal Characteristics Maxima stops all abuses. My claim is that it does not stop ANY abuses.

 

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

.  So when the argument is that NCM doesn’t affect character build, I’m highly dubious.  

 

I don't think anyone has claimed that it doesn't affect character build.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Unless the palindromedary is making claims behind my back.....

[Chris Goodwin]

26 minutes ago, Lucius said:

 

True, no one claims Normal Characteristics Maxima stops all abuses. My claim is that it does not stop ANY abuses.

 

 

I don't think any rule stops abuses.  That's why we have GMs.

[Lucius]

4 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I don't think any rule stops abuses.  That's why we have GMs.

 

A rule against a specific abuse will stop that abuse, assuming it's obeyed. Obviously a rule that's not obeyed doesn't accomplish much of anything.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

For example if you tried to make a rule against palindromedaries I would probably still place one in this tagline.

[Christopher]

12 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Lucius' Florist Friars are facetious, of course, but a good example of how NCM does not do the job.  I've copied these below for those who have not seen them before.  I believe these are the 5e versions.

That a rule does not stop 100% off all abuse does not mean it does not work.

 

Heck, the "100% or not worth it ever" argument is just conservative argumentation.

 

13 hours ago, Lucius said:

In what way does Normal Characteristic Maxima give you "planning security?"

I want a Character with 30 DEX when normally 20 is allowed

 

NCM: I can get a Chracter with 30 DEX by paying more.

 

Hughs Idea: I write up a Character with 30 DEX. This ability was a core idea of my build. The GM says no. So now my idea is *bleeped*

 

And that is how NCM gave me planning security.

[Duke Bushido]

6 hours ago, Lucius said:

I don't think anyone has claimed that it doesn't affect character build.

 

 

Not entirely accurate:

 

Hugh pointed out earlier a problem that I and many others have noticed when NCM and "Package Deals" (done by the rules of the edition that introduced NCM, anyway) are included in a campaign:

 

Players who have already "prepaid" half of what they need to exceed NCM on a characteristic have a tendency to not just exceed it, but to max it.  In my own experience-- and evidence suggests in Hugh's as well-- that NCM _does_ affect character build, unfortunately, not quite in the way I expect the designer(s) of the NCM concept had envisioned.

 

But yes: Hugh has earlier put forward the idea that NCM does affect character build, at least under certain circumstances.

 

 

Mallet:

 

I am _stunned_ be the simplicity and efficiency of your solution!  That's absolute _genius_!  It allows a particular race or character type to exhibit the traits that make him a typical example of that race / type without having to _first_ exceed some power level.   That is positively _brilliant_, and with your blessing, I'd like to start stealing it right away.

 

 

 

Duke

 

[Duke Bushido]

56 minutes ago, Christopher said:

I want a Character with 30 DEX when normally 20 is allowed

 

NCM: I can get a Chracter with 30 DEX by paying more.

 

Hughs Idea: I write up a Character with 30 DEX. This ability was a core idea of my build. The GM says no. So now my idea is *bleeped*

 

And that is how NCM gave me planning security.

 

NCM didn't do that.  The GM did it when he said "no."  Without the GM, there is nothing inherent in the NCM rules to prevent exceeding NCM.  Quite the opposite: there are rules that tell you precisely _how_ to exceed it.

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

 

A rule against a specific abuse will stop that abuse, assuming it's obeyed. Obviously a rule that's not obeyed doesn't accomplish much of anything.

 

I don't even think NCM was intended to stop any abuse, as much as it is to replicate fiction with non-super powered protagonists, particularly in conjunction with lower total point values.  The point of differing NCM levels for different races is to give the kinds of variations you'd expect to see in the source material.  I think it's easier to let players decide if they want to go above NCM by paying double than it is to police character concepts, and GMs can tweak NCM levels to fit the kinds of campaigns they want to run. 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 hour ago, Christopher said:

I want a Character with 30 DEX when normally 20 is allowed

 

NCM: I can get a Chracter with 30 DEX by paying more.

 

Hughs Idea: I write up a Character with 30 DEX. This ability was a core idea of my build. The GM says no. So now my idea is *bleeped*

 

And that is how NCM gave me planning security.

You're equally sound-effected if the GM is communicating that poorly, Christopher. 

If you build a wonderful character and then the GM suddenly dumps NCM on you, you're rebuilding that character to save a bunch of points. 

If you build a wonderful character and then the GM suddenly dumps a hard cap on you, you're rebuilding that character. 

If you build a wonderful character under NCM the GM still might tell you he doesn't want anything above a 25 and didn't expect anyone to go that high with NCM but sorry you have to change that. 

 

Your example isn't a case of NCM being better, it's a case of not getting blindsided. 

[Lucius]

13 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

True, no one claims Normal Characteristics Maxima stops all abuses. My claim is that it does not stop ANY abuses.

 

 

I don't think anyone has claimed that it doesn't affect character build.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Unless the palindromedary is making claims behind my back.....

 

7 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Not entirely accurate:

 

Hugh pointed out earlier a problem that I and many others have noticed when NCM and "Package Deals" (done by the rules of the edition that introduced NCM, anyway) are included in a campaign:

 

Players who have already "prepaid" half of what they need to exceed NCM on a characteristic have a tendency to not just exceed it, but to max it.  In my own experience-- and evidence suggests in Hugh's as well-- that NCM _does_ affect character build, unfortunately, not quite in the way I expect the designer(s) of the NCM concept had envisioned.

 

But yes: Hugh has earlier put forward the idea that NCM does affect character build, at least under certain circumstances.

 

 

I think you quoted me without reading carefully. I did not say that I don't think anyone has claimed that Normal Characteristix Maxima effects character build. I said that I don't think anyone has claimed that Normal Characteristic Maxima does NOT effect character build.

 

7 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Mallet:

 

I am _stunned_ be the simplicity and efficiency of your solution!  That's absolute _genius_!  It allows a particular race or character type to exhibit the traits that make him a typical example of that race / type without having to _first_ exceed some power level.   That is positively _brilliant_, and with your blessing, I'd like to start stealing it right away.

 

 

 

Duke

 

 

I agree Mallet has a good idea.

 

8 hours ago, Christopher said:

I want a Character with 30 DEX when normally 20 is allowed

 

NCM: I can get a Chracter with 30 DEX by paying more.

 

Hughs Idea: I write up a Character with 30 DEX. This ability was a core idea of my build. The GM says no. So now my idea is *bleeped*

 

And that is how NCM gave me planning security.

 

 

Thank you, that actually makes sense.

 

Of course, it's assuming your GM, who may have assumed no one would go so far over the "max," doesn't nix the character anyway. So, you have all the planning security I would have trying to play the Florist Friars.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that Brother Rose the Flying Monk isn't meant to be a combat monster, he's meant to deliver flowers

 

[mallet]

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Mallet:

 

I am _stunned_ be the simplicity and efficiency of your solution!  That's absolute _genius_!  It allows a particular race or character type to exhibit the traits that make him a typical example of that race / type without having to _first_ exceed some power level.   That is positively _brilliant_, and with your blessing, I'd like to start stealing it right away.

 

 

I'm glad you like it, yes, you and anyone else definitely use it if you like it. I get tons of great ideas from everyone here that I incorporate into my games all the time! That is why I love this forum so much. 

[Duke Bushido]

6 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

 

I think you quoted me without reading carefully.

 

Looking back, _I_ think you're right! 

 

My fullest appologies. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

 

I agree Mallet has a good idea.

 

 

I loved it.  When I have time to play with it, I may "formalize" it into something I can list in a package, something akin to +2 skill levels with DEX or something like that. 

 

Again, Mallet: well done! 

[Hugh Neilson]

On 1/27/2019 at 1:15 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

NCM is useful to shape players expectations and builds as a soft cap. If you don’t believe that doubling a characteristic cost affects character design, consider then Figured Characteristics And why it went away. How many people complained that it was too good of a deal to pass up? How many Olympic level heroes and villains are there because figured characteristics? Or has Rasputin level of CON?  Shoot how many players still by on 3’s and 8’s because you still get an advantage on skill rolls? (I’m pretty sure).  When 6th was being discussed and Figureds was being removed, the argument was “Now I can build a clumsy but capable fighter”. I responded with “you always could, though maybe it took more work to build”. The counter response was “with Figured it was too efficient of points so you shouldn’t build it”. In other words efficiency of points matters to concept.  So when the argument is that NCM doesn’t affect character build, I’m highly dubious.  

 

Does it affect builds?  Sure.  Now I know, for example, why Samson has the -0 limitation "Not if he cuts his hair" on his STR in excess of 20.  Any limitation removes the doubled cost.  Clearly that's very balanced.

 

I want a Hercules character who can punch for 8d6 Normal Damage, so I must pay 50 points for this.  Marvin Mage pays 50 points and gets a 10d6 Blast.  Or he pays 24 points for +30 STR (so he ends up with the same 40 STR I paid for) that requires 2 handed gestures to activate, then remains until he shuts it down. Or he pays 50 for +50 STR, 1/2 END with the same limitation and he walks around with a 60 STR that costs less END than my 40 STR.  Sure, that's balanced.

 

koffFlintmobilekoff

 

On 1/27/2019 at 9:01 PM, Christopher said:

I want a Character with 30 DEX when normally 20 is allowed

 

NCM: I can get a Chracter with 30 DEX by paying more.

 

Hughs Idea: I write up a Character with 30 DEX. This ability was a core idea of my build. The GM says no. So now my idea is *bleeped*

 

And that is how NCM gave me planning security.

 

OK, you want the security that you can go beyond the campaign assumptions and expectations. 

 

Last I looked, the GM could say no to book-legal constructs, which would leave your idea just as *bleeped*.

 

By the way, why a 30 DEX?  What is your vision for the character that requires a 30, rather than a 25 or a 33, DEX?  Or were you just buying mechanics, rather than building a concept?

[Hugh Neilson]

I also like Mallet's approach.  I would ask, however, what price you would place on +1 to a specific CHAR roll - that is still needed for the OP's desire to balance races, and seems like it would be a good option for characters who want their human to be "as hardy as a dwarf" or "as graceful as an elf".

 

I will admit a certain bias, as I favour the view that "skill levels" should start at "+1 to all rolls based on this characteristic" and be reduced in cost as they are made more limited (including "only one roll at a time", as well as "only a subset of rolls based on that characteristic").

[Hugh Neilson]

23 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I don't even think NCM was intended to stop any abuse, as much as it is to replicate fiction with non-super powered protagonists, particularly in conjunction with lower total point values.  The point of differing NCM levels for different races is to give the kinds of variations you'd expect to see in the source material.  I think it's easier to let players decide if they want to go above NCM by paying double than it is to police character concepts, and GMs can tweak NCM levels to fit the kinds of campaigns they want to run. 

 

I agree with your first and second points - simulate the source material.

 

Where I disagree is that I think specific guidelines that require GM oversight to exceed is as, or more, effective a means of getting there.  As Lucius notes, that Pixie can have a -5 STR penalty to start off with and still spend enough points to be the strongest character in the party.

[Christopher]

On 1/28/2019 at 5:59 AM, Duke Bushido said:

NCM didn't do that.  The GM did it when he said "no."  Without the GM, there is nothing inherent in the NCM rules to prevent exceeding NCM.  Quite the opposite: there are rules that tell you precisely _how_ to exceed it.

Those rules are called "Normal Characteristics Maxima". Wich is a reliable, robust rule.

 

As opposed to "the GM has to agree".

 

On 1/28/2019 at 6:18 AM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

 Your example isn't a case of NCM being better, it's a case of not getting blindsided.  

NCM is a rule that has to be communicated before Character creation even begins. It is as fundamental as the Points and Complications. There is no room to be blindsided.

 

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

OK, you want the security that you can go beyond the campaign assumptions and expectations. 

  

Last I looked, the GM could say no to book-legal constructs, which would leave your idea just as *bleeped*. 

Allowing the Optional NCM rule is the GM changing the campaign assumptions. Intentionally.

 

I think right now you argue for the sake of argument, rather then to have a point.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Christopher, are you seriously arguing that NCM replaces GM oversight and that a GM will never veto a NCM-legal character? 

[Toxxus]

On a related note - Is there any way to get the ancient Adventurer's Club magazine that had the Combat Effectiveness Calculator in it?

 

I want to see what the original looked like compared to the one I invented from decades old memory.

[Chris Goodwin]

12 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I agree with your first and second points - simulate the source material.

 

Where I disagree is that I think specific guidelines that require GM oversight to exceed is as, or more, effective a means of getting there.  As Lucius notes, that Pixie can have a -5 STR penalty to start off with and still spend enough points to be the strongest character in the party.

 

Where I was going with that was, if NCM are a full stop hard cap, then in a fantasy game no human wizard will ever have, for instance a DEX of 23, because humans can't go that high; the GM doesn't have to budge on that.  In a game with double cost over NCM, a human wizard can have DEX 23, by paying the points.  The GM can always veto that, but that DEX has cost 48 points (<5th edition, which could be half to a third of the character's total point budget depending on the game) or 32 points (6th edition); if the player really wants that, I'm inclined to let them.  

 

Even in a double cost over NCM game, the GM can still veto things like the 23 DEX human wizard or the 25 STR pixie, but you're less likely to see those because the doubled cost already puts up a barrier.  

[Christopher]

4 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Christopher, are you seriously arguing that NCM replaces GM oversight and that a GM will never veto a NCM-legal character? 

No.

 

Are you seriously arguing that "the GM has to allowed you exceeding that cap" is more reliable for the players then "NCM"?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

3 minutes ago, Christopher said:

No.

 

Are you seriously arguing that "the GM has to allowed you exceeding that cap" is more reliable for the players then "NCM"?

I am arguing that NCM does not provide any assurance that a high value will be permitted.  I am arguing against your implication that it does, with your DEX 30 character scenario. 

 

NCM is an alternative pricing model, it has absolutely nothing to do with GM acceptance or denial of characters.  I would very much like to know why you feel it does, because that makes no sense to me.