A Modified Champions Universe

[Killer Shrike]

On 3/11/2019 at 8:37 AM, PamelaIsley said:

I've been looking into the Sentinels and Justice Squadron (ugh).  Besides just the Justice Squadron's name (which actually sounds cheesier than Futurama's New Justice Team), these are not very well put together superhero teams.

 

Let's look at the listed members.

 

Sentinels

Black Rose. Supermage. Leader of the team (this is actually not clear; in the team history, Diamond is said to be the most recent leader, but in the bios, she is identified as leader).  Extradimensional mage.

Diamond. Brick. Long serving member who has diamond skin. He's the Thing. Almost unashamedly.

Diadem. Psionics.  Youngest member and mentalist. Supposed to be a relatively new hero, but as of News of the World, she's quite old.

Dr. Vox. Energy Projector. Recently developed sonic blast powers.

Proteus. Shapechanger. Mysterious figure who can alter his form.

Bravo. No real class. Extradimensional swordfighter from Faerie.

 

Justice

Blink. Teleporter. Mainly can teleport others.

Brawler. Brick. Legacy hero and one of strongest men in the world. Sort of the leader?

Drifter. Supermage. Extremely powerful mysterious magical figure.

Flashover. Energy Projector. Reformed supervillain.

Superstar. Energy Projector. Very powerful cosmic energy projector.

Tomahawk. Sort of Brick. Experienced supercombatant.

 

Each team has six members (ruling out voting as a means of making decisions). Neither team has a real gadgeteer. And neither team has a speedster. The Sentinels, in particular, have some serious weaknesses as a tactical unit, despite massive point inflation. Some of the bios are just bizarre, and some clearly have struggled with some version issues (Diadem mainly). They all suffer from simply being too old because their bios use specific dates, they clearly are from earlier versions of the game than 5E (I think), and time has sped past them. If you wanted to set your game at the time News of the World came out, only Superstar is reasonably younger than his early 30s. (Diadem started superheroing in 1989, Blink in 1993, Flashover in 1994, and Superstar in 2001. These are the young members, and Superstar is supposed to be a "rookie.")

 

So just because of some date issues, these teams are in need of a refresh. The question is whether they are in need of a full reboot. I have given serious thought to totally re-creating both teams from scratch using original heroes. I've also considered pruning the ranks a little and just re-doing several spots to build out more balanced teams and allow them to feel more vibrant (like the Champions) in a setting update.

 

What do people think? I feel like these teams are more significant in the Champions Universe than the offhand mentions they get in 6E, but I'm not really all that pleased with the fleshed out versions that appear in 5E for the reasons above.

 

I want to slice this into sashimi.

 

The first thing I want to note is that you are very anchored on dates. It's a repeating theme. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. But it's also something easily changed for most characters. There are a few characters who have some critical detail in their history that pegs them to a certain place and time...like a character who incorporated the fall of the Berlin Wall or the explosion of the Challenger or a specific event in the game setting that cannot be moved to a more convenient date. 

 

Every other character can be positioned along whatever timeline suits your purposes. 

 

On the subject of Sentinels, Justice, etc...the various referenced superhero teams of the Champions Universe et al...as far as I've been able to fathom, I think that they are mostly characters from homebrewed campaigns familiar to the author(s) and / or the DOJ guys. Teams like that aren't planned or assembled Mission Impossible like to check off role boxes (Speedster...check. Brick...check. Mentalist...check. Gadgeteer...check. Combat wombat...check.) in an effort to staff a well rounded tactical unit, instead they are organic...some player wanted to play their "cool concept of a swordsman from a Faerie world", or whatever. Maybe I'm wrong, but they just kind of have that feel to them for the most part to me.

 

Redoing them for your campaign is an excellent idea, IMO. Or get rid of them altogether. Or anything in between. Only you know what feels right for your campaign. None of the published stuff is sacred. Hardly anyone really pays much attention to the background characters anyway. It's a blank canvas. 

 

The more important consideration is...would you ever actually feature characters from these teams as significant NPC's in your campaign? For instance, would you have the Sentinels come in to a combat resolution and start using their writeups?

 

If no, then they don't need writeups. They can just be names and fluff blurbs unless you want them to be fully stated out to serve as benchmarks or for players to look at for purposes of comparison ("This is what a high power superteam should look like").

 

If yes, then to what end? What are they being applied to the story to accomplish? What is their purpose?

 

So basically, I'm suggesting that you should decide what the purpose of such characters is for your campaign first and then worry about whether a given team's composition is tactically wise or well rounded, or whether their builds are necessary, or if necessary and available are up to snuff, and so on. First know what you are optimizing for, in other words.

 

For my purposes names and blurbs are generally sufficient; full write-ups only limit such characters as well as my ability to use them as name drops and background color...so I don't give them write ups usually. If I do end up needing a write up for one I'd almost certainly just make a fresh character implemented per my needs at the moment within the shell of the character's name and shtick.

 

Personally, I name drop some of the superheroes from the published materials, but I prefer to feature characters from my own past campaigns in lieu of those characters. I mention some of the characters whose names are in print from time to time; I have some that I like to use as significant NPCs or useful plot elements...Dr. Silverback and the Mechanic of the Liberty League and Condor of the Freedom Patrol, and a few others have been used in this way by me for past campaigns. *I've never bothered to even glance at a character sheet (if one could be found) or written one up for any of them. I use them as narrative fodder; no write ups necessary.

 

You can see some of that in action in the Millennial Malediction fiction thread I've been writing which is set in my version of the Champions Universe; most of the characters mentioned are from past campaigns of mine, but a few like the Mechanic put in ongoing appearances as the story unfolds. My ultimate goal with that storyline is to reboot my version of the setting for 6e and also to fold a bunch of content from my past campaigns into a streamlined rebooted timeline as a sort of Crisis on Infinite Earths. Cleaning house, simplifying, tidying up timelines, conserving characters, etc. This seems similar to what you are doing in its ultimate aim...a rebooted campaign setting...I'm just going about it in a different way. A lot of the published characters, as well a fair number of the homebrewed characters, won't exist in the rebooted version. Less is more. I'm also planning to dial down the power levels quite a bit in the reboot. I'm going to give the setting a liposuction, basically. 

 

 

 

* that's not 100% strictly entirely true...I did once do an evil version of Dr. Silverback called Professor Primate for the Through A Mirror Darkly adventure in Digital Hero #38

 

[PamelaIsley]

4 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

The first thing I want to note is that you are very anchored on dates. It's a repeating theme. And that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. But it's also something easily changed for most characters. There are a few characters who have some critical detail in their history that pegs them to a certain place and time...like a character who incorporated the fall of the Berlin Wall or the explosion of the Challenger or a specific event in the game setting that cannot be moved to a more convenient date. 

 

In my defense, the published universe is obsessed with dates.  It feels the need to anchor itself to very specific points in time (particularly the Battle of Detroit, which it explicitly places in 1992, a major problem since that was already 15 years in the past as of News of the World).  And it's not just the setting book -- the villain books include tons and tons of very specific dates.  I am staunchly opposed to any real world setting doing this, so I admit it drives me crazy.  The frustrating thing about the CU is that it is obsessed with dates, and then is sloppy about processing what those dates mean.  The setting provides so many dates that there is a lot of work scrubbing it out (it's most of the reason for this thread frankly) and reworking the timeline.  If the Champions are supposed to be a new superhero team as of Champions 6E, then they can't have started adventuring in 2001 (nine years before that book is published and now 18 years ago).

 

4 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

The more important consideration is...would you ever actually feature characters from these teams as significant NPC's in your campaign? For instance, would you have the Sentinels come in to a combat resolution and start using their writeups?

 

I think superteams other than the Champions (and the PCs) are important.  I don't want to use these characters (I have no attachment to a single one, and will spare people my nitpicking of their stories other than the dates).  But I also don't want to excise so much of the setting that it no longer feels recognizable.  So I'm struggling between total revamp of the teams (using just a form of their names), a refresh (changing dates for most, eliminating some of them and replacing them with original characters), or just tweaks (just dates and deleting Bravo and Black Rose's background). 

 

I also brought them up because they are just so bizarre that I thought their backgrounds and builds must have struck others as odd.

[Scott Ruggels]

Hell, you could just solve all these problems, wave the hand and declare anyone with super powers is unaging and immortal unless killed.

[Killer Shrike]

5 hours ago, PamelaIsley said:

In my defense, the published universe is obsessed with dates.  It feels the need to anchor itself to very specific points in time (particularly the Battle of Detroit, which it explicitly places in 1992, a major problem since that was already 15 years in the past as of News of the World).  And it's not just the setting book -- the villain books include tons and tons of very specific dates.  I am staunchly opposed to any real world setting doing this, so I admit it drives me crazy.  The frustrating thing about the CU is that it is obsessed with dates, and then is sloppy about processing what those dates mean.  The setting provides so many dates that there is a lot of work scrubbing it out (it's most of the reason for this thread frankly) and reworking the timeline.  If the Champions are supposed to be a new superhero team as of Champions 6E, then they can't have started adventuring in 2001 (nine years before that book is published and now 18 years ago).

 

No defense necessary. We all have our pet peeves that irritate us. Internal consistency and aligning a putatively "modern" setting with a realistic timeline is a concern for your enjoyment of the material; that's not invalid. 

 

Stipulating specific dates is nearly always a problem in fiction...adding dates and real world events can add realism to the story but it also dates the fiction...after more than a few years have passed in the real world, the fiction that was specific on time and place details becomes a period piece even if it got it right relative to the point in time in which it was set. 

 

There are of course tricks; add 10 to every year (next year you'd add 11, the year after 12, etc) being a simple one. You can also just ignore whats printed all together and generalize it; the Champions have been around a 'couple' years, the Sentinels for 'many' years, etc. Character X is 'young', Character Y is 'middle aged', etc.

 

I tend to anchor on a few real world things for my supers campaign. WW1 & 2, the Korean war and Vietnam happened; the specifics may be different but the broad strokes are the same. Where it starts to get dodgy for me is into the mid 70's. This is probably not coincidentally my own personal event horizon...things that happened before I was alive I tend to think of differently than things that have happened during my lifetime. After the mid-70's I don't commit to anything specific unless it matters to a character background or concept. Similarly I don't commit to real world figures unless forced to. I also try to avoid controversial or divisive figures from real life unless its just unavoidable and even then I'll often use an analogue with a fictional name and an understanding that the portrayal of such a character is not meant to be a literal translation of the real world figure they are obviously alluding to.

 

So there's basically current time, a few years ago, a decade ago, an elastic band of "a while ago" or "back in the day", then Vietnam, then pre-Vietnam (KW, WW2, WW1). A decade might get referred to, "back in the 80's", etc. Very rarely will I use an exact date...it has to provide some value or fill some need in the plot that can't be accomplished without naming a date. Like when doing something time travel related...dates start to matter a lot.

 

For instance, Back to the Future would probably still work if they were completely vague on dates, but if you consider the sequels when it went from fairly tight framing on specific dates in the first movie (mid 80's, 50's, variant nows) to more general time pastiches (the time of gunslingers and steam trains, variations on the near future), the original set up in the first movie is all around tighter and has more dramatic tension while the followups feel (at least to me) looser and trade dramatic tension and some acknowledgement of or attempt at realism and period considerations for high adventure and situational comedy with less attempts at realism and more emphasis on cinematic concerns.

 

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I think superteams other than the Champions (and the PCs) are important. 

 

Personally, I don't think the Champions are important. In fact, I think they are detrimental. Naming a team after the branding of the setting is just confusing. And they are not even the preeminent superteam...they are presented as noobs. It is not expected that the PC's will be on that team. They are obviously, to me, a stand in for player characters which means...again to me...that means they are in the way when I've got actual player characters to put into the world. The Champions also fill the starting PC superteam niche in the most detailed and focused upon city in the setting.  

 

If I were setting my game someplace other than Millennium City, then fine...the Champions might exist in MC and my players PC's exist in the campaign city, and possibly their paths never cross in any meaningful way. But if I'm tap dancing around MC or just not using MC, then there isn't that much left. Why use MC or Vibora Bay or other made up places at all? Why not just stick with Detroit, New Orleans, NYC, etc? Is there even a CU setting per se? Or just some published characters sprinkled into a real world analogue using real world locations? 

 

I don't know. For me, presenting MC as the focal point for the setting and then plonking a group of PC equivalents into it as being the established superteam there seemed very counterproductive...so I got rid of Champions the superteam straight away when I started running Champions the game again in the 5e era.

 

When I reboot my version of the setting, the Detroit event and founding of MC is probably going to get written out. It's problematic to me. 

 

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But I also don't want to excise so much of the setting that it no longer feels recognizable. 

 

I honestly don't think the CU is "recognizable" as such in any meaningful way. Most players have zero grounding in it. The entire thing is mostly just a portfolio of character write ups spread across a bunch of books, only loosely held together with a nominal timeline. There's a few significant differences from the real world such as the existence of Millennium City, which in a lot of ways create more problems than they solve, but other than that...not a lot of touchstones from the world itself.

 

The setting is mostly defined by its classic villains such as Destroyer, Mechanon, VIPER, DEMON, etc...and to a lesser extent things like PRIMUS which mostly have meaning in relation to one or more of the villains.

 

If you have some variation on the main villains in the setting, particularly the ones that have survived multiple edition changes, it is going to feel enough like "Champions". 

 

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So I'm struggling between total revamp of the teams (using just a form of their names), a refresh (changing dates for most, eliminating some of them and replacing them with original characters), or just tweaks (just dates and deleting Bravo and Black Rose's background). 

 

 

It can be some combination of all of those things. Really, anything that doesn't feel right to you, get rid of it or replace it or tweak it until it does feel right to you. Or just don't mention or refer to it directly and if it never comes up in play then it didn't matter.

 

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I also brought them up because they are just so bizarre that I thought their backgrounds and builds must have struck others as odd.

 

Yeah, they are odd. But that's true of so much of the CU's published material. The tonal shifts are all over the place, from the deadly serious to the incredibly goofy.

 

Personally, I don't like the silly stuff...like Professor Paradigm and his gang of whack jobs. There's a subset of CU material that falls into what I think of as the "Foxbat paradigm". That kind of material doesn't suit me, and detracts from the setting for me...but I recognize that it is also not intended for me.

 

Rather than define a narrow strongly themed setting, the CU takes the shotgun approach. They just fill books with gonzo character write ups all over the place, with the understanding that a given GM is going to filter what works for them and what doesn't, and tweak anything that bugs them. I also understand that its an attempt to emulate Marvel and DC comics, where you see a similar range of serious to absurd over the years.

 

For my purposes, the peripheral superteams that aren't in my way are useful just to fill out the background noise a bit. If I'm doing a bit where SNN (the Super News Network, super news super now!) is on in the background to fill out a scene the talking head anchor can be yammering on about The Sentinels superbattle with VIPER agents earlier that day and how team spokesperson Black Rose vowed the team would seek out the VIPER nest and shut it down. Things like that. It's just filler to ground the characters in the setting and the idea that things are happening beyond their little slice of the world.

 

If one of the players is like "that sounds like more fun than this lame ass adventure you're running, lets go help the Sentinels fight VIPER" and convinces the rest of the group to do so, then getting more specific about the Sentinels and committing to some details on them becomes important. And if that were to happen and I did start to flesh out the Sentinels in response to the player engagement and PC action, its going to matter more to the players and those characters would start to represent something in the groups shared experience. But baring that, background elements such as they are nothing more than wallpaper and the less committed I am to specifics about them the easier it is for me to use them as narrative fodder. 

[Killer Shrike]

5 hours ago, PamelaIsley said:

I  will spare people my nitpicking of their stories other than the dates

 

I hope you don't spare us. Personally I've enjoyed your nitpicking; it has surfaced some very interesting conversations. I look forward to further calling out of specific oddities.

[Killer Shrike]

18 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

But re magic underpinning the rise of superpowers, in the context of the modern era, that's just an enabling device to explain how the world could progress for centuries pretty much as in real life, and then one days supers start popping up (that day being analogous to when the first comic-book superhero debuted in the real world).

 

So, yeah, here's the fundamental problem. Either something needs no explanation because it is accepted as part of the premise, or people balk at accepting it and any explanation given is just a variation on "...because reasons".

 

If someone sits down to play in a comic book style superhero game, the idea that people have unusual and even superhuman abilities is just part of the premise. 

 

Marvel comics actually had some attempts at this...genetic manipulation by the Celestials or the Kree or whatever (I don't feel like looking it up) created the potential for superhumans on Earth. But it totally doesn't matter and hardly ever gets referenced. I can't recall if DC had something similar...I was more of a Marvel guy. You see a similar thing with "midichlorians" or whatever in Star Wars...hardly anyone needed a justification for the Force, and the one given cheapened / reduced / undermined the feeling of coolness. The fantastic is often better when left fantastical. And I say this as a person who enjoys hard sci fi. Realistic things benefit from realistic explanations...it heightens the verisimilitude, fantastical things do not and attempts to apply realism to it subtracts from rather than enhances the fantasy. For a more hardboiled supers universe a grand explanation could work, for a gonzo Marvel / DC style supers universe it just gets in the way at best. 

 

The existence of superpowers in a supers setting requires no apology. 

 

Why there are superheroes in the Champions Universe didn't require justification. In fact, it would have been more interesting to leave it undefined...if a player piped up suddenly and was like "um hey why were there no superpowers for a long time and then suddenly a bunch starting around WW2?" there's all kinds of more interesting places that could go. Maybe there were some, and they were just on the low down. Maybe that's what the origins of various myths were founded on...maybe Zeus wasn't a literal god maybe he was a mutant with lightning powers...or was several different superhumans over time who all got conflated together into one mythical character in the oral tradition. Maybe there's a more sinister reason. Maybe timeline manipulation. Maybe there was a deliberate effort at suppressing superhumans and destroying historical records of their existence. Maybe...

 

Potentially exploring the "origin of superpowers" if the players wanted to do so just seems like more fun to me than saying, "...uh...cuz...well...magic."

 

Would you like to buy a magic doorknob? We're running a deal this month. They're just like other doorknobs, except they're made of magic.

 

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Supertech, mutant powers, ch'i-fueled martial arts, aren't "magic" themselves -- magic just loosens the laws of physics enough for them to manifest. (Let's face it, comics break real physics every issue.)

 

It's a superhero universe. The "laws of physics" of the real world are more like what you'd call guidelines than actual "rules"...

 

 

Magic as handwavium is just handwavium...you don't need the magic. You just wave your hand and say, "...superhero genre...", and the handwavium so generated by that grand hand wave is sufficient to power the whole thing with no further explanation necessary. In my opinion, of course

 

 

(I added a smiley so you can see that I'm friendly even though I disagree with you on this)

 

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If every time "magic" as the reason for super powers appeared in print, you scratched it out, and wrote in your preferred causative force -- cosmic energy, quantum flux, dimensional instability, whatever -- the rest of the setting would roll on pretty much the same.

 

Right. So just scratch it out in the first place. It wasn't necessary, contributes nothing, and is easily ignored.

 

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IME the main problem most gamers have who express distaste for that explanation, is that they have strong personal preconceptions as to what magic "really" is (which is an amusing notion in itself).

 

Well, I'm going to call you on that. Maybe "most gamers", I have no way to quantify that in this case. But the issue isn't about what a fictional thing like "magic" really is or isn't. The issue is that it was unnecessary on the one hand and internally inconsistent on the other. 

 

It isn't "magic" per se that is the problem. If the game had said "the source of all superpowers is genetic" or "the source of all superpowers is technology" or "the source of all powers is psionics" or "the source of all powers is <some other single source of powers>" it would be equally problematic.

 

Personally, I believe...and I may be wrong, this is just my failing memory plus my INTJ intuition at work...that it was done in an attempt to unify Turakian Age with the Champions Universe. As soon as Takofanes pops up in both, they are on some kind of shared timeline. How did the timeline go from magical stuff back then to superheroes now and what was all that boring mundane stuff in the middle of the timeline between those two eras? Uh...well...uh...its ALL magic and magic waxes and wanes and as it does things wax and wane between super and normal. And after that, plonking other published settings down on that timeline became a thing. 

 

[Lucius]

7 hours ago, PamelaIsley said:

 

I also brought them up because they are just so bizarre that I thought their backgrounds and builds must have struck others as odd.

 

Odd? Yes.

 

More odd than any other given comic book superhero characters? Not really.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

More odd than a palindromedary?

[Lord Liaden]

Honestly, the "magic" thing isn't an important enough issue for me to need or want to debate it further. I stated my case, and don't mind at all if someone disagrees with it.

[drunkonduty]

Not a fan of the "magic is the source of all and it waxes and wanes" thing either.

 

I'm quite happy to run a single origin style game. (Even tried it once - everything was based on alien tech.  Iron Persons abounded.) I like the feeling of a tighter narrative frame work in which to operate. But if I do do this I want the catalyst to play a part of the narrative. Most of my games  have been open slather , any origin goes, set in the mostly-as-published CU.

 

I also don't like the shared universe concept for all the official HERO settings. Not needed.  In fact I hate the thought of the Turakian Age, Atlantis, and Valdorian Age impinging on my bog standard supers universe. This is what alternate timelines and dimensions are for. Hell, I don't even need Champions 3000 to be in the same universe as the regular CU. It can be part of some whacky Legion of Super Heroes vs. DCU sort of thing. (I hope  I got the reference right, I don't really know the DCU.)

 

[Lord Liaden]

41 minutes ago, drunkonduty said:

I also don't like the shared universe concept for all the official HERO settings. Not needed.  In fact I hate the thought of the Turakian Age, Atlantis, and Valdorian Age impinging on my bog standard supers universe. This is what alternate timelines and dimensions are for. Hell, I don't even need Champions 3000 to be in the same universe as the regular CU. It can be part of some whacky Legion of Super Heroes vs. DCU sort of thing. (I hope  I got the reference right, I don't really know the DCU.)

 

 

I can respect that view. OTOH one can look at that extended history as a deepened source of inspiration for characters and plots. For example, I often find myself serving as a kind of CU "lore consultant" for the Champions Online role-playing community who find it appealing to build from the precedents established for the setting. A couple of those consultations stand out in my mind, as they produced modern-day Champs PCs rooted in the prehistory of the setting:

 

At his height, during the Turakian Age, Kilbern Skyfather was the chief of the gods, but bound most of his power into his sword Auralia in order to seal the tomb of Takofanes the Undying. He'd retired to a quiet corner of Elysium, slowly losing power as his worshipers died out... Then, in 1987, the Tomb was opened. Kilbern could feel the disturbance as Auralia was removed and the Lich-King's tomb opened. He spent most of his remaining power crossing the Elysian fields against the wishes of the other gods there, leaving him weak enough to evade the Ban. He manifested directly on Earth, but with only the power of a beginning superhero. Now he strives to become famous enough (the modern equivalent of worship) to gain the power to defeat Takofanes permanently.

 

And here's another one:

 

Once, she ruled an empire.

Viviane the Abyzinian was born to the common folk of that empire, her magical abilities untapped until the day she discovered a lost relic of an ancient age - a mystical gauntlet clutching a magically-preserved skull; both had belonged to the Turakian wizard-king Ansgar the Twice-Lived. The latent magic she possessed was enough to rouse the King of Khrisulia's spirit, and the ancient wizard's relic combined with his tutelage made Viviane the greatest sorceress Abyzinia had seen in generations. She ascended the throne, but though she ruled wisely and was beloved by the common folk of the Empire, the nobles took offense at her 'staining' the throne with her common blood. Besieged on all sides, she was forced to turn to the demonic powers she had sought to avoid to protect her reign - and in the end the sacrifice doomed her. Betrayed and defeated, she was dragged away into Hell.

For millennia uncounted she was imprisoned in that dark realm, her power broken and her spirit with it; only Ansgar's company kept her from going completely mad and surrendering to the darkness and evil that surrounded her. Time disappeared. The world changed. Then, one day, Ansgar spoke to his companion with horror that not even Hell could bring. Something had stirred across the cosmos, a darkness thought long-sealed had awoken. Kal-Turak the Ravager of Men had been loosed once more, into an age unprepared to face his wickedness - but his awakening also served as a beacon for the other lich to follow. Though it took decades, he was able to guide Viviane back to the mortal realm...

..and beneath a bloody moon on Halloween of 2018, the Last Witch-Queen of Abyzinia and her Turakian counselor collapsed through the realms into a world neither recognized....

 

Rather like the infamous Prime Directive of the Star Trek universe, what may at first seem like a liability can be turned into an asset, depending on how you look at it.

[PamelaIsley]

I've never been a fan of shared universes across genres.  I'd prefer my superhero, sci-fi, and fantasy campaigns remain very separate.  Of course, I use very different products for each (relying on Forgotten Realms back when I did any kind of fantasy, Traveller/Star Wars for sci-fi, and Batman/CU for superheroes).

[Killer Shrike]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

I can respect that view. OTOH one can look at that extended history as a deepened source of inspiration for characters and plots. For example, I often find myself serving as a kind of CU "lore consultant" for the Champions Online role-playing community who find it appealing to build from the precedents established for the setting.

 

I have a CO lifetime account. It could be cool to log on some time and sync up with you to do an adventure or something. I'd have to knock the rust off as I haven't actually played the game in a long time, but I use it for screenshots of character costumes and could jump in easily. 

[PamelaIsley]

5 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

Personally, I don't think the Champions are important. In fact, I think they are detrimental. Naming a team after the branding of the setting is just confusing. And they are not even the preeminent superteam...they are presented as noobs. It is not expected that the PC's will be on that team. They are obviously, to me, a stand in for player characters which means...again to me...that means they are in the way when I've got actual player characters to put into the world. The Champions also fill the starting PC superteam niche in the most detailed and focused upon city in the setting.  

 

I don't know. For me, presenting MC as the focal point for the setting and then plonking a group of PC equivalents into it as being the established superteam there seemed very counterproductive...so I got rid of Champions the superteam straight away when I started running Champions the game again in the 5e era.

 

If you have some variation on the main villains in the setting, particularly the ones that have survived multiple edition changes, it is going to feel enough like "Champions". 

 

 

I chopped your post up a bit to make two points. I don't mean to present anything out of context.

 

I love the superteam the Champions (you're right about the name, although I think the universe maybe is supposed to be named like a comic book would be).  Defender, Witchcraft, and Nighthawk are definitely my three favorite "fake" superheroes (but they don't really even begin to orbit Batman, Batgirl, Power Girl, and some other DC versers in terms of "real" heroes).  I'm not sure why I would use the CU at all if I weren't using the Champions.  Because . . . .

 

On your second point, I don't really like that many CU villains.  And definitely not the "big" ones.  I don't like Dr. Destroyer (he would have died in Detroit under my modified universe).  I don't like Mechanon.  My opinions on the alien and dimensional invaders are posted throughout the thread.  I do like Gravitar, Invictus, and, sort of, Geoffrey Haganstone.  

 

My goal in this thread was to basically build out a "better" Champions Universe around the Champions, with sufficient room for the PCs to operate.  If I were to start a game up, it would almost certainly feature mostly villains of my own creation, plus a few CU villains (like Tachyon, Pulsar, Howler, and maybe Lazer) that are easy to fit in to my desired power levels. I need at least the Sentinels though for a ton of the plot seeds I've incorporated in a lot of my original characters' backgrounds.

[PamelaIsley]

16 minutes ago, Killer Shrike said:

 

I have a CO lifetime account. It could be cool to log on some time and sync up with you to do an adventure or something. I'd have to knock the rust off as I haven't actually played the game in a long time, but I use it for screenshots of character costumes and could jump in easily. 

 

I'm also a CO lifetime player.  I was inactive from 2013 until December.  It's changed a lot.  But I caught up pretty fast.

[drunkonduty]

LL: you're something of a lore consultant here too. ?

 

But I still don't wanna mix up the settings. (Truth is, I don't like the Turakian setting. I know it's meant to be a generic, catch-all setting that satisfy a wide range of needs. But the mish-mash of it, plus the unbelievably long time line of events is too much for me.)

[Killer Shrike]

4 minutes ago, drunkonduty said:

LL: you're something of a lore consultant here too. ?

 

Quoted for truth. 

[Killer Shrike]

6 minutes ago, PamelaIsley said:

I'm also a CO lifetime player.  I was inactive from 2013 until December.  It's change a lot.  But I caught up pretty fast.

 

I'm @killershrike on CO; anyone from these forums is welcome to hit me up.

[drunkonduty]

7 minutes ago, PamelaIsley said:

On your second point, I don't really like that many CU villains.  And definitely not the "big" ones.  I don't like Dr. Destroyer (he would have died in Detroit under my modified universe).  I don't like Mechanon.  My opinions on the alien and dimensional invaders are posted throughout the thread.  I do like Gravitar and, sort of, Geoffrey Haganstone. 

 

Couldn't agree more on Dr Destroyer. Hate that character. But I do like the story potential for some of his surviving minions to be fighting for control of his organisation. So I'm happy to have him as part of the CU history. But a dead part.

 

I have a soft spot for Mechanon, but his high level versions are too, too powerful. Hell, most of his minions, even the mooks, are too powerful. So I have no idea how I'd ever work it into a campaign...

 

I like all the others you mention too. Tell me, how do you feel about GRAB? I'm a big fan. I want to use them every chance I get. As a group they're tough, but also much more interested in getting away than hurting heroes ( or anyone for that matter.)

 

Over in the Holocaust name thread it was brought up that Haganstone and Invictus would make good rivals/enemies/allies of convenience for one another. I've been thinking about this. I'd love to run a campaign arc (not a full campaign, maybe about a dozen sessions, with a handful of other story lines  breaking them up) with these two running for President. I'd call it Fortunate Son.

[drunkonduty]

Don't even remember my CO handle. I do know that I had a gold membership and, when it lapsed, most of my characters didn't work anymore.

[PamelaIsley]

51 minutes ago, drunkonduty said:

I like all the others you mention too. Tell me, how do you feel about GRAB? I'm a big fan. I want to use them every chance I get. As a group they're tough, but also much more interested in getting away than hurting heroes ( or anyone for that matter.)

 

Over in the Holocaust name thread it was brought up that Haganstone and Invictus would make good rivals/enemies/allies of convenience for one another. I've been thinking about this. I'd love to run a campaign arc (not a full campaign, maybe about a dozen sessions, with a handful of other story lines  breaking them up) with these two running for President. I'd call it Fortunate Son.

 

First, that's an awesome idea for a campaign.  Just awesome.  And it's election season, so it's timely. 

 

I do like GRAB, particularly Bluejay, Black Diamond, and Cheshire.  Bluejay sort of inspired my original CO character (Bluebird) although she ended up looking more like Dove when I was finished (she does use Bluejay's goggles in the game).  I like some members of the Crimelords (Morgaine in particular, although she is probably the worst built character in all of CU; it's almost as though multipowers didn't exist when she was put together).  I'm not a huge fan of the other villain teams (and really dislike Professor Paradigm and the Cirque d' Whatever teams).

[Killer Shrike]

58 minutes ago, drunkonduty said:

 

Couldn't agree more on Dr Destroyer. Hate that character. But I do like the story potential for some of his surviving minions to be fighting for control of his organisation. So I'm happy to have him as part of the CU history. But a dead part.

 

I have a soft spot for Mechanon, but his high level versions are too, too powerful. Hell, most of his minions, even the mooks, are too powerful. So I have no idea how I'd ever work it into a campaign...

 

I like the DOOM pastiche version of Destroyer...I don't like where the character ended up. I do like Mechanon but I play him as basically Ultron. I also have a similar homebrewed robotic villain called Mr. Roboto who is similar to Mechanon, but it believes itself to be benevolent and seeks to preserve the consciousness of humans in synthetic bodies...its plots tend to be more invasion of the body snatchers oriented; Roboto and Mechanon are natural enemies which I find to be a fun twist. 

 

Honestly, you could make the case that I like the CU to the extent that it is a clownsuit to pull over Marvel archetypes so that I can run superhero games that are familiar to most players without being slowed down by comic book continuity or the fact that I stopped reading comics in 1994. The characters that either ARE copies of Marvel characters or can be recast into obvious analogues of Marvel characters are the ones I tend to like best, with a few extras who add some variety / spice things up a bit.

 

Quote

I like all the others you mention too. Tell me, how do you feel about GRAB? I'm a big fan. I want to use them every chance I get. As a group they're tough, but also much more interested in getting away than hurting heroes ( or anyone for that matter.)

 

I like GRAB a lot too and they got used in my continuity. I have a similar group, a little more dangerous / aggressive, but still basically superthieves and saboteurs called the Violaters that fills a similar role. I like the non-ideological villains for bread and butter encounters with lower stakes.

 

Quote

Over in the Holocaust name thread it was brought up that Haganstone and Invictus would make good rivals/enemies/allies of convenience for one another. I've been thinking about this. I'd love to run a campaign arc (not a full campaign, maybe about a dozen sessions, with a handful of other story lines  breaking them up) with these two running for President. I'd call it Fortunate Son.

 

That sounds interesting. A sort of Manchurian Candidate spin w/ Invictus maybe.

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, drunkonduty said:

Over in the Holocaust name thread it was brought up that Haganstone and Invictus would make good rivals/enemies/allies of convenience for one another. I've been thinking about this. I'd love to run a campaign arc (not a full campaign, maybe about a dozen sessions, with a handful of other story lines  breaking them up) with these two running for President. I'd call it Fortunate Son.

 

A while back I posted a suggestion for how to translate the current political/social climate in the United States into something suitable for use in a Champions campaign, without having to use real personages or party ideologies: The Sutherland Presidency.

[Spence]

On 1/22/2019 at 9:00 AM, PamelaIsley said:

Based on the helpful comments from others, this is the outline I've come up with:

 

The Bluebird Champions Universe (BCU)

A Modified Champions Universe Setting

 

Main Differences from 6E Champions Universe

 

1. Magic is not the source of all superpowers.  Superpowers come from a variety of means, and supermagic is just one possible origin for superhumans.

2. Ignore all published dates in the 5E and 6E Champions Universe.  Unless a specific date is given in the BCU, all events simply occur in the past.

3. There have been no extradimensional or alien invasions of the Earth.  Very few people on Earth believe in the existence of extraterrestrials.  Superheroes and villains with alien origins exist, but the public either does not believe their origin stories or is unaware of them.

4. Other dimensions exist, but there are no known interdimensional empires or states.  Dimensions exist primarily as the domain of entities such as demons, Lovecraftian monsters, or unknown forms of energy.  There is very little extradimensional travel, even by these other entities, without elaborate summoning rituals.

5. UNTIL, PRIMUS, and similar organizations do not exist.  Governments monitor superhuman activity, but regular defense and law enforcement agencies are responsible for dealing with any threats.

6. Superheroes and supervillains cancel each other out in a geopolitical sense.  Governments and militaries are far more powerful than even the combined might of all superhumans, so superhumans are not a factor in global political maneuverings.  No government maintains a large superhero team to supplement its military forces.

7. Supertechnology has not really spread enough to have any effect on the world’s technological level.  Virtually all villainous henchmen use real world guns, not blasters.

8. Superhumans were largely inactive during the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s.  The modern era of superhumans began with the appearance of Vanguard about 12 years before the Battle of Detroit.  This coincided with the rise of Dr. Destroyer and Takofanes.

 

---SNIP--

 

Typical Hero Rules

 

1. Typical "new" heroes are created either as low powered (300 point / 60 matching complications) or standard (400 point / 75 matching complications) characters.

2. No character may have more than one characteristic above 20 without a strong thematic reason (no randomly high dexterities or constitutions, as is common in published material).  If someone has a Dexterity above 20 or an intelligence above 20 for example, there needs to be a reason they are one of the world’s greatest athletes or one of the most brilliant humans to ever live.

3. In general, active points are capped at either 60 points (low-powered heroes) or 75 points (standard), with possible exceptions for an individual power.  DCs should be capped around 12. Villains and NPC heroes will be adjusted to compensate for this, as needed.

4. Non-speedsters should not have a SPD above 6.

5. Extradimensional origins should be avoided.

 

 

I just noticed this thread and plan on co-opting the items above.  I'll admit I did not read the entire thread, but you have managed to articulate many of my own thoughts.  I plan on "adjusting" a few and adding a few. 

 

But hats off on a great set up.

[PamelaIsley]

2 minutes ago, Spence said:

 

I just noticed this thread and plan on co-opting the items above.  I'll admit I did not read the entire thread, but you have managed to articulate many of my own thoughts.  I plan on "adjusting" a few and adding a few. 

 

But hats off on a great set up.

 

That's a running outline of all my thoughts up to this point. Take as much of it as you want. 

 

 

[Spence]

16 minutes ago, PamelaIsley said:

 

That's a running outline of all my thoughts up to this point. Take as much of it as you want. 

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

If you are interested I can PM you my thoughts and changes, I don't really want to derail your thread.