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HS 6e is mechanically the best version of the rules; dissenting views welcome


Killer Shrike

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1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Oh and Chris Goodwin I (friendly) challange you to write up Slicks slick fields in 3rd ed without using Entangle (cause it really doesn’t make sense) and by RAW.  To me that is an objective test to see which edition is better. ?

 

6D6 Energy Blast, Area Effect (+1), Continuous (+1), Double Knockback (+3/4), only to knock target down (-2), can be avoided with Dex check as if using Breakfall (-1/4), only against targets on the ground (-1/4), Reduced Endurance (x 1.25).

 

Active points 120, Total with Reduced End 150, Real cost 43

 

Edit:  Sorry, had to change that around to 3rd ed Reduced End rules.

 

Edit #2:  May have made a mistake here.  I can't find Continuous or Double Knockback anywhere in the 3rd ed book.  I'm not sure if those were added in an Adventurers Club, but I thought they both predated 4th edition.  So this may be a 4th ed build unless I can find those somewhere.

 

Edit #3:  I'm good.  Found it in the Champions III supplement.

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Flipping through Champions Complete (I'm not gonna bother with the full set of Encyclopedia Heroicas), I'm struck by some pretty ridiculous pricing for different abilities.

 

I'll skip over the arguments on characteristics.  I'll just go stream of consciousness as I get to different parts of the book.

 

--Pg 26, still no rhyme or reason for why autofire skills are priced the way they are.  Rapid Autofire is the only one worth taking.

--Pg 27, higher tier combat skill levels have been increased in cost for no reason.  2 pt and 3 pt levels have a problem they didn't before, if purchased for a weapon they apply to all maneuvers (+1 OCV with Cap's shield is 2 pts, and gives bonuses to block, strike, disarm, trip, ranged strike, etc).

--Pg 31, do we really need to take up space with the Language Similarity Tree?  Really?  Does anyone ever use that? (admittedly not a 6th edition only complaint)

--Pg 34, upper tier skill level costs are probably too high.

--Pg 35, two weapon fighting and rapid attack do similar things, should probably be combined, BUT this brings up other problems I'll address later (they break the Speed dynamic).

--Pg 36, the costs for Contacts are just way too high.

--Pg 39, Combat Sense is way overpriced.  Danger Sense too.

--Pg 40, Deadly Blow is WAAAY overpriced.  Resistance probably needs costs adjusted if you halve the cost of Ego.

--Pg 41, Speed Reading should return to 4th ed pricing, or cheaper.  Basic its cost around an Enhanced Sense build isn't useful or needed.  Striking Appearance is just limited Presence.  Weapon Master is derptasticly overpriced.

 

Going to eat breakfast now.  I'll be back.

 

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1 hour ago, massey said:

Flipping through Champions Complete (I'm not gonna bother with the full set of Encyclopedia Heroicas), I'm struck by some pretty ridiculous pricing for different abilities.

 

I'll skip over the arguments on characteristics.  I'll just go stream of consciousness as I get to different parts of the book.

 

--Pg 26, still no rhyme or reason for why autofire skills are priced the way they are.  Rapid Autofire is the only one worth taking.

--Pg 27, higher tier combat skill levels have been increased in cost for no reason.  2 pt and 3 pt levels have a problem they didn't before, if purchased for a weapon they apply to all maneuvers (+1 OCV with Cap's shield is 2 pts, and gives bonuses to block, strike, disarm, trip, ranged strike, etc).

--Pg 31, do we really need to take up space with the Language Similarity Tree?  Really?  Does anyone ever use that? (admittedly not a 6th edition only complaint)

--Pg 34, upper tier skill level costs are probably too high.

--Pg 35, two weapon fighting and rapid attack do similar things, should probably be combined, BUT this brings up other problems I'll address later (they break the Speed dynamic).

--Pg 36, the costs for Contacts are just way too high.

--Pg 39, Combat Sense is way overpriced.  Danger Sense too.

--Pg 40, Deadly Blow is WAAAY overpriced.  Resistance probably needs costs adjusted if you halve the cost of Ego.

--Pg 41, Speed Reading should return to 4th ed pricing, or cheaper.  Basic its cost around an Enhanced Sense build isn't useful or needed.  Striking Appearance is just limited Presence.  Weapon Master is derptasticly overpriced.

 

Going to eat breakfast now.  I'll be back.

 

 

Some questions:

 

Which of these are changes made specifically in 6e?  In other words, which (ir any) edition has the superior mechanics for these items?

 

Are there elements/mechanics within 6e which are superior to prior editions?

 

I know the pricing of combat skill levels was based on replicating a Multipower of all the options for skill levels.  As we go higher up the chain, and have to cover mental and physical CVs, that pushed the price up.  I'm  not sure that was the right model, but I will say that, in my opinion, if the cost to get the same in-game benefit through two different mechanics or builds varies, that is an indication of a failure in the mechanics.

 

In my view, the biggest mechanical failure in 6e is that the price of several characteristics (INT, PRE, maybe DEX and EGO) remains too low compared to the price of purchasing the component parts (skill levels and enhanced PER; skill levels, PRE attacks and perhaps PRE defense; skill levels and lighting reflexes).  However, those mechanical failings are largely unchanged from prior editions (DEX being the exception, where it is now not the biggest bargain in the game, and a required purchase to be combat-effective on a point-efficient basis).

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3 hours ago, massey said:

 

6D6 Energy Blast, Area Effect (+1), Continuous (+1), Double Knockback (+3/4), only to knock target down (-2), can be avoided with Dex check as if using Breakfall (-1/4), only against targets on the ground (-1/4), Reduced Endurance (x 1.25).

 

Active points 120, Total with Reduced End 150, Real cost 43

 

Edit:  Sorry, had to change that around to 3rd ed Reduced End rules.

 

Edit #2:  May have made a mistake here.  I can't find Continuous or Double Knockback anywhere in the 3rd ed book.  I'm not sure if those were added in an Adventurers Club, but I thought they both predated 4th edition.  So this may be a 4th ed build unless I can find those somewhere.

 

Edit #3:  I'm good.  Found it in the Champions III supplement.

 

Not bad, although it does show the scattered nature of the 3e rules, consistent with the manner in which many games were published at the time, and to the present day.  I had not thought to question whether "all rules in one tome "(even a slipcase of two tomes) is superior, mechanically, to "rules scattered over splatbooks" published with lesser or greater frequency.

 

Now put this into Slick's Multipower, where that 150 AP creates some mechanical issues.

 

This also seems to fall victim to the "wall of modifiers" that have been suggested to be a weakness of some 6e constructs.

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6 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Some questions:

 

Which of these are changes made specifically in 6e?  In other words, which (ir any) edition has the superior mechanics for these items?

 

Are there elements/mechanics within 6e which are superior to prior editions?

 

I know the pricing of combat skill levels was based on replicating a Multipower of all the options for skill levels.  As we go higher up the chain, and have to cover mental and physical CVs, that pushed the price up.  I'm  not sure that was the right model, but I will say that, in my opinion, if the cost to get the same in-game benefit through two different mechanics or builds varies, that is an indication of a failure in the mechanics.

 

In my view, the biggest mechanical failure in 6e is that the price of several characteristics (INT, PRE, maybe DEX and EGO) remains too low compared to the price of purchasing the component parts (skill levels and enhanced PER; skill levels, PRE attacks and perhaps PRE defense; skill levels and lighting reflexes).  However, those mechanical failings are largely unchanged from prior editions (DEX being the exception, where it is now not the biggest bargain in the game, and a required purchase to be combat-effective on a point-efficient basis).

 

Some of these changes started with 5th, and accelerated as they went to 6th.  Hopefully later on I'll get to how it should have been done differently.

 

Generally I'm of the opinion that the basic cost structure of the system comes from Characteristics and certain Powers (such as Energy Blast).  Everything else is either derived from or related to those key components.  Some secondary Powers (like Enhanced Perception) are priced a bit higher than they probably should be, and that has to do with the undervaluing of limitations that's been endemic to the system for quite some time.  But as far as that goes, it is what it is.

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5 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Not bad, although it does show the scattered nature of the 3e rules, consistent with the manner in which many games were published at the time, and to the present day.  I had not thought to question whether "all rules in one tome "(even a slipcase of two tomes) is superior, mechanically, to "rules scattered over splatbooks" published with lesser or greater frequency.

 

Now put this into Slick's Multipower, where that 150 AP creates some mechanical issues.

 

This also seems to fall victim to the "wall of modifiers" that have been suggested to be a weakness of some 6e constructs.

 

That's why we put it in Slick's Elemental Control. :)

 

The wall of modifiers is a bit of a problem, but I think it's 6ths overuse of it that causes the most eye strain.  Somebody who has one power that works that way, and an explanatory paragraph, is not that big an issue.

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10 minutes ago, massey said:

 

That's why we put it in Slick's Elemental Control. :)

 

 

Ah, yes - free points for being able to make up a common thread for a group of disparate powers.

 

"Fire Powers"

 

"Spider Powers"

 

"Friction Control"

 

"Alien Blob Powers"

 

"Kryptonian Powers"

 

"Mutant Powers"

 

"Powers my character has that get a cost break from being in an EC"

 

That was another mechanic I really thought I would miss,  but which cold, hard analysis suggests was properly removed.

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6 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Ah, yes - free points for being able to make up a common thread for a group of disparate powers.

 

"Fire Powers"

 

"Spider Powers"

 

"Friction Control"

 

"Alien Blob Powers"

 

"Kryptonian Powers"

 

He did ask about how to build the character in 3rd edition.

 

Edit:  I see this as a response to the idea that you can't build certain effects in 3rd edition.  It's a conceptual argument and not a pricing one.

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11 minutes ago, massey said:

 

The wall of modifiers is a bit of a problem, but I think it's 6ths overuse of it that causes the most eye strain.  Somebody who has one power that works that way, and an explanatory paragraph, is not that big an issue.

 

I think the wall of modifiers is a presentation issue rather than a mechanics issue, and I agree that having a description of what it does, not its mechanics, makes a lot of difference.

 

How many modifiers does a D&D spell have?  Gestures, Incantations, Focus (perhaps expendable), maybe Extra Time, perhaps a variant of Concentration, Charges (or a time duration), variant areas of effect and saving throws/spell resistance.  But they get presented in a chart + narrative format rather than a wall of text so "Hero is too complicated".

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37 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I think the wall of modifiers is a presentation issue rather than a mechanics issue, and I agree that having a description of what it does, not its mechanics, makes a lot of difference.

 

How many modifiers does a D&D spell have?  Gestures, Incantations, Focus (perhaps expendable), maybe Extra Time, perhaps a variant of Concentration, Charges (or a time duration), variant areas of effect and saving throws/spell resistance.  But they get presented in a chart + narrative format rather than a wall of text so "Hero is too complicated".

It's more that D&D spells are highly standardized.  Most spells have Gestures, most have Incantations, most have Focus OIF (material component pouch), all have some [Continuing] Charges mechanism they share with other spells of the same level.  Once you get those out of the way, D&D spells look a lot simpler. 

Likewise, if you make your Magic Power as a Multipower with Gestures, Incantations, Focus all on the Multipower and don't repeat that verbage in the spell descriptions, it looks much cleaner. 

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Continuing my Champions Complete stream of consciousness review:

 

Powers

 

--Pg 51, Aid going to 6 points per D6 gets a shoulder shrug.  Aid only really gets broken when you start layering lots of Advantages on it.  I don't think this is a bad change, it's just something I noticed.  Almost going back to 4th ed's 5 pts per D6.

--Pg 51, Barrier is absurdly cheap.  You can trap people with cheap Body very easily.

--Pg 57, I miss Desolid vs mental powers.

--Pg 59, Suppress should have remained separate from Drain, for Active Point purposes.

--Pg 61, the interaction between Endurance Reserve, END, Charges, and Increased END cost needs its own essay.  Suffice it to say, it isn't priced right here.

--Pg 70, Healing's 24 hour period is a D&Dism that shouldn't have been brought over to Hero.

--Pg 82, Regeneration is made more expensive with no purpose.  It's not like every character was taking the power before, it wasn't undercosted.  With cheaper Body, the cost problem is even more pronounced.

--Pg 85, Stretching has some non-game terminology applied to its rules.  Proportionately altering your dimensions, becoming twice as thin?  This doesn't actually do anything, and is a case of hardwiring in a special effect into the rules.

--Pg 92, Mind/Body/Spirit distinctions in Transform is still stupid, particularly since there are no rules for what "Spirit" even means.

 

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2 hours ago, massey said:

Flipping through Champions Complete (I'm not gonna bother with the full set of Encyclopedia Heroicas), I'm struck by some pretty ridiculous pricing for different abilities.

 

I'll skip over the arguments on characteristics.  I'll just go stream of consciousness as I get to different parts of the book.

 

--Pg 26, still no rhyme or reason for why autofire skills are priced the way they are.  Rapid Autofire is the only one worth taking.

--Pg 27, higher tier combat skill levels have been increased in cost for no reason.  2 pt and 3 pt levels have a problem they didn't before, if purchased for a weapon they apply to all maneuvers (+1 OCV with Cap's shield is 2 pts, and gives bonuses to block, strike, disarm, trip, ranged strike, etc).

--Pg 31, do we really need to take up space with the Language Similarity Tree?  Really?  Does anyone ever use that? (admittedly not a 6th edition only complaint)

--Pg 34, upper tier skill level costs are probably too high.

--Pg 35, two weapon fighting and rapid attack do similar things, should probably be combined, BUT this brings up other problems I'll address later (they break the Speed dynamic).

--Pg 36, the costs for Contacts are just way too high.

--Pg 39, Combat Sense is way overpriced.  Danger Sense too.

--Pg 40, Deadly Blow is WAAAY overpriced.  Resistance probably needs costs adjusted if you halve the cost of Ego.

--Pg 41, Speed Reading should return to 4th ed pricing, or cheaper.  Basic its cost around an Enhanced Sense build isn't useful or needed.  Striking Appearance is just limited Presence.  Weapon Master is derptasticly overpriced.

 

Going to eat breakfast now.  I'll be back.

 

 

I pretty much agree with all of these but I make an exception for Deadly Blow.

 

As written, with the official rulings I've seen on how it works, it is the most broken construct in the game IMO. 

 

It is less expensive than the power it supplements, it adds to the base damage of KA but is not subject to all of the relevant advantages. By adding to the base damage, it enables bypassing the doubling rule (if you play with that option) and it is a talent and thus cannot be drained, suppressed, restrained or even detected without making a custom power.

 

If the cost was raised and it was subject to doubling, I would consider it balanced. As it is, it is just the power the mechanic invented by the game designer to make his favorite type of character.

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Advantages:

 

Pg 106, there was no need to separate Hardened into two Advantages.  Nothing was gained here, it only complicated matters.  It also goes against the basic principle that defenses should be cheaper than offenses.

Pg 107, Increased Maximum Effect (and Cumulative) is one of the biggest holes in 6th.

 

That's about as far as I'm gonna go through.  I think the rest of it is mostly the same.  Everything I've pointed out is a pretty big mistake, as far as I'm concerned.  This is without even getting into issues like Comeliness, which is entirely a matter of personal preference.  And it's without addressing the issues of figured characteristics, which is something that has spawned debates for the last 20 years.  But everything I've listed so far is something that was done better in an earlier edition.

 

Therefore, I must conclude that 6th edition is NOT mechanically the best version of the rules.

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21 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

 

I pretty much agree with all of these but I make an exception for Deadly Blow.

 

As written, with the official rulings I've seen on how it works, it is the most broken construct in the game IMO. 

 

It is less expensive than the power it supplements, it adds to the base damage of KA but is not subject to all of the relevant advantages. By adding to the base damage, it enables bypassing the doubling rule (if you play with that option) and it is a talent and thus cannot be drained, suppressed, restrained or even detected without making a custom power.

 

If the cost was raised and it was subject to doubling, I would consider it balanced. As it is, it is just the power the mechanic invented by the game designer to make his favorite type of character.

 

Deadly Blow is one of those powers that operates in a very specific genre, where certain campaign rules are likely to be in effect.  Therefore it's hard to price appropriately.  In a heroic game, I can see it being very effective (and even cheap for what you get).  In a superheroic game it's better to just buy more Killing Attack.  It's probably cheaper to do it with Aid, too.

 

This goes back to my earlier argument that the points system doesn't do a good job of balancing heroic characters, because the game designer won't know what sort of equipment your players will be getting for free.  Yeah, Deadly Blow can be great, but why pay points for it if somebody else can dig through a weapons chart and find a bigger gun, or some special ammo?  Years of gaming with firearms enthusiasts have led to me dreading those conversations.

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Massey I disagree with Harnded being separated has no advantage now. In my mind it does. First of all for cheap it use to provide two different defenses for one price but then in certain situations iirc you had to describe which attack Hardened protected against. It had to do if the attack bought multiples of both Advantages. Now you can clearly define which Defense counters which Attack. You want Bricks to be tough? Now you can set Campaign say Max x2 Hardened but no Penetrating so when He is attacked by Questionite Claws (which now only need one level) it makes them special. 

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1 hour ago, massey said:

 

He did ask about how to build the character in 3rd edition.

 

Edit:  I see this as a response to the idea that you can't build certain effects in 3rd edition.  It's a conceptual argument and not a pricing one.

Yup it’s a conceptual question which is why 6th is better. You can do more by RAW than before. 

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4 hours ago, massey said:

Flipping through Champions Complete (I'm not gonna bother with the full set of Encyclopedia Heroicas),

 

Encyclopedia Heroicas

 

I don't know if you coined that phrase or not, but I like it.

 

Quote

I'm struck by some pretty ridiculous pricing for different abilities.

 

I'll skip over the arguments on characteristics.  I'll just go stream of consciousness as I get to different parts of the book.

 

--Pg 26, still no rhyme or reason for why autofire skills are priced the way they are.  Rapid Autofire is the only one worth taking.

 

They are priced at 5 points, generally, in the realm of a combat skill level. These skills are primarily useful at heroic levels of play, where autofire weapons cost $$$ not cp. You can use them at higher levels of play, but an AoE selective power build or some other approach might make more sense if the campaign allowed.

 

The other autofire skills have their purposes; they stack up. Individually, they are meh, but you can combine them together, plus Defensive Attack (-2 DCV instead of 1/2 DCV), and some OCV levels. Here's a character that does this:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/HereThereBeMonsters/Characters/Trey Halford.html

 

Professional Pool - Autofire Skills (15/90), all slots: Using any of the Autofire skills takes a Full Phase and halves a character’s DCV (this penalty is not cumulative if he uses two or more Autofire Skills at once). An Autofire Skill applies to any and all Autofire attacks a character has or uses.  
1) Accurate Sprayfire (The character can use Autofire against multiple targets with great accuracy. He suffers only a flat -1 OCV penalty (instead of the usual -1 OCV per 2m area fired into penalty). Accurate Sprayfire bonuses also apply when characters use Suppression Fire against an Area.) 
Notes: Real Cost: 5
 
2) Concentrated Sprayfire (When using Autofire against multiple targets, the character can concentrate his attack to fire multiple shots at a particular target, instead of the standard one shot per target. He incurs a -1 OCV penalty (in addition to standard Autofire modifiers).) 
Notes: Real Cost: 5
 

3) Skipover Sprayfire (When firing at multiple targets, a character with Skipover Sprayfire can fire Autofire attacks in small bursts at nonadjacent targets so he doesn’t waste Charges or energy firing into empty areas. He only has to fire into the areas he wants to fire into (i.e., those with targets in them), instead of into each 2m part of the line. He incurs the standard -1 OCV penalty for each 2m area he tracks his attack across (even if he doesn’t fire an attack into that area), and can track his attack across a number of 2m areas no greater than the number of shots he can fire. Skipover Sprayfire attacks are at -1 OCV (in addition to Autofire penalties).) 
Notes: Real Cost: 5

 

Quote

--Pg 27, higher tier combat skill levels have been increased in cost for no reason.  2 pt and 3 pt levels have a problem they didn't before, if purchased for a weapon they apply to all maneuvers (+1 OCV with Cap's shield is 2 pts, and gives bonuses to block, strike, disarm, trip, ranged strike, etc).

 

The pricing was changed to reflect the utility of 8 and 10 point levels to be used as either OCV or DCV or damage. Every level basically has 1/2 a damage class bundled into it. 

 

Now, as it happens, the 8 point and 10 point levels seemed overcosted to me at first as well, as in practice most players (in my experience) usually only converted CSL's to damage in extremis and usually used them for OCV or DCV.

 

However, as you can now just buy OCV and DCV as a characteristic whereas before you had to buy up DEX or buy CSLs, it actually works out. It's just a shift in thinking; where before you would buy up a +1 HtH and +1 DCV CSL, you can just buy up the characteristic at the same cost (plus, bonus, OCV the characteristic is ranged and hth, and DCV the characteristic is always "allocated" without needing Defensive Maneuver).

 

Thus if you are buying the upper tier CSL's you are doing so because you are either at NCM or because you want the extra utility they offer over OCV / DCV as characteristics.

 

The 2 point levels are the same as they ever were as far as I recall, with just some clarity of intent added. Here's 4e:

image.png.f4eb5041fe7e2ec021cf972a3718fd97.png

 

Quote

--Pg 31, do we really need to take up space with the Language Similarity Tree?  Really?  Does anyone ever use that? (admittedly not a 6th edition only complaint)

 

It's been in since 4e at least (and presumably in one of the predecessors?), and yes I use it, as is in modern globetrotting games, and with a custom tree in fantasy and space campaigns. It's a really neat feature for simulating multi-language settings. 

 

I will agree that it could probably have been moved to Ultimate Skill and / or genre and settings books.

 

Here's an example from one of my fantasy settings (full breakout here?

 

LanguageChart.jpg

 

 

Quote

--Pg 34, upper tier skill level costs are probably too high.

 

They are slightly higher than they were. As Overall Skill Levels are also usable as CSL's, it needed to cost more than the 10 point level of CSL. It's still a bargain at 12 points, for characters that can utilize them fully. The math flows down from there. 

 

At superheroic levels, its a drop in the well, at heroic levels the slightly higher costs actually work out ok as it puts a bit of a curb on characters pumping their skill rolls too cheaply, which is helpful as skill rolls form a larger part of overcoming heroic challenges than they do in higher levels of play. 

 

Quote

--Pg 35, two weapon fighting and rapid attack do similar things, should probably be combined, BUT this brings up other problems I'll address later (they break the Speed dynamic).

 

They both upgrade the same default mechanic, and can be used together, but they are not the same thing. They could have been organized into one entry under a more general heading of "Multiple Attack Skills".

 

Quote

--Pg 36, the costs for Contacts are just way too high.

 

Depends on the GM. As what Contacts will do for a character is in "GM's discretion" land, the sort of GM who's default position is "NO" or "GRUDGING" when it comes to outside assistance benefiting the PC's will run their games in such a way that Contacts are not useful at any cost.

 

The sort of GM who looks at the # of points spent on a Contact and how it is configured and then allows a reasonable amount of utility to an ability costing that many points when the player uses the ability will run their games in such a way that Contacts are useful at their cost.

 

Quote

--Pg 39, Combat Sense is way overpriced.  Danger Sense too.

 

I don't think Combat Sense is overpriced per the rules; as far as I recall it is built directly off of Enhanced Senses w/ Requires Skill Roll applied to it. I don't have the time to reverse engineer it, but I have a vague recollection of this having been deconstructed back in the day.

 

Danger Sense I'm less confident on its costing being consistent with Enhanced Senses, but it does have a stop sign on it for a reason. I don't think it's overpriced, compared to the cost of senses in general, but I've not used it much in 6e.

 

Generally speaking, it might be useful for you to review the Enhanced Senses rules first, and then reevaluate the various sensory and sense affecting abilities. 

 

Quote

--Pg 40, Deadly Blow is WAAAY overpriced. 

 

If you are in a campaign where you can just buy levels of KA, then its not competitive.

 

If you are in a campaign where you can't do that, it's a very good ability.

 

The rules note this:

 

Deadly Blow typically applies to Killing
Damage weapons, since they’re the most common
in the Heroic genres the Talent’s most appropriate
for
. (In genres where characters pay Character
Points for their weapons, they can simply buy
more damage with Limitations as a partially-
Limited compound power
). 

 

Quote

Resistance probably needs costs adjusted if you halve the cost of Ego.

 

Off the top of my head, +1 to roll would be 5 points of Ego (or 3 if you were near a break point). It's pretty cheap.

 

Quote

--Pg 41, Speed Reading should return to 4th ed pricing, or cheaper.  Basic its cost around an Enhanced Sense build isn't useful or needed. 

 

I don't have a strong opinion on "Speed Reading". It's always seemed a bit silly to me. 

 

Quote

Striking Appearance is just limited Presence. 

 

Most of the Talents are just some power with some modifiers and some frosting. That's what the category of abilities is for. Striking Appearance is actually very useful, and it was used in my 6e campaign to excellent effect.

 

Quote

Weapon Master is derptasticly overpriced.

 

See Deadly Blow. 

 

Quote

Going to eat breakfast now.  I'll be back.

 

Pancakes!

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My opinion on Deadly Blow is that we need a base mechanic for a floating damage class.  This would also help in pricing combat skill levels.  For those who dislike Deadly Blow, is +1 DC for all martial maneuvers, 0 END, reasonably priced at 4 points?  That's another floating DC mechanic.

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5 hours ago, massey said:

Continuing my Champions Complete stream of consciousness review:

 

Powers

 

--Pg 51, Aid going to 6 points per D6 gets a shoulder shrug.  Aid only really gets broken when you start layering lots of Advantages on it.  I don't think this is a bad change, it's just something I noticed.  Almost going back to 4th ed's 5 pts per D6.

--Pg 51, Barrier is absurdly cheap.  You can trap people with cheap Body very easily.

--Pg 57, I miss Desolid vs mental powers.

--Pg 59, Suppress should have remained separate from Drain, for Active Point purposes.

--Pg 61, the interaction between Endurance Reserve, END, Charges, and Increased END cost needs its own essay.  Suffice it to say, it isn't priced right here.

--Pg 70, Healing's 24 hour period is a D&Dism that shouldn't have been brought over to Hero.

--Pg 82, Regeneration is made more expensive with no purpose.  It's not like every character was taking the power before, it wasn't undercosted.  With cheaper Body, the cost problem is even more pronounced.

--Pg 85, Stretching has some non-game terminology applied to its rules.  Proportionately altering your dimensions, becoming twice as thin?  This doesn't actually do anything, and is a case of hardwiring in a special effect into the rules.

--Pg 92, Mind/Body/Spirit distinctions in Transform is still stupid, particularly since there are no rules for what "Spirit" even means.

 

 

IIRC, the repricing of Aid, and making it 0 END, was intended to align self-only Aid with the cost of boosting a stat. In 4e, Aid combined Aid and Healing, and was overpowered.

 

KS has responded to Barrier higher up.  It bears noting that creating a barrier (a wall which had BOD and DEF, like a stone wall, wall of iron, earthern rampart, Spider-Man's webs or a wall of ice) was a mechanic lacking from prior editions.

 

END - an END reserve has an advantage over normal END - it is not lost if you are KOd.  I would prefer to see Charges cost END by default, which would raise the limitation value (but if you want 0 END as well, pay for it).  The limitation is not high enough for a power that cost 0 END to begin with.  That is not a 6e change, though.  6e is the first iteration I have seen where buying REC and END is actually considered a viable option over Reduced END.

 

Healing is a tough one.  If it is unlimited, it makes BOD damage meaningless.  That's fine in a Supers game.  Not so much in a Heroic game where BOD damage is supposed to mean something.  Regen has a similar issue.

 

While I am not a huge fan of the Stretching mechanic, 6e is the first edition to provide any mechanic to allow a character to squeeze through a narrow area.

 

Agree with the distinction in Transform.  There are a few other areas where powers are watered down in this manner (Classes of Mind, which CC did not include).

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21 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

My opinion on Deadly Blow is that we need a base mechanic for a floating damage class.  This would also help in pricing combat skill levels.  For those who dislike Deadly Blow, is +1 DC for all martial maneuvers, 0 END, reasonably priced at 4 points?  That's another floating DC mechanic.

 

Martial DC's are also under priced. They should be somewhere between 6 and 8 points.

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1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

 

Martial DC's are also under priced. They should be somewhere between 6 and 8 points.

 

6 points is arguable, but (IMHO) incorrect. 8 points is ridiculous unless you think that STR should cost 2, which is ridiculous for different reasons. :)

 

Consider that Extra DC is functionally equivalent to STR, 0 END, Only for martial maneuvers. What is the last bit worth? If one thinks it's -1/4 or -1/2, than charging 6 points for a DC is reasonable. If it's more than that, than the current 4-point cost is correct.

 

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