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HS 6e is mechanically the best version of the rules; dissenting views welcome

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Do you agree that high DEX for a dog, a shark and monkey should all have the same effect as high DEX for a man? You think all the derived stats work the same for all those creatures? And for vampires, for robots and Kzinti?

 

I think it would be impossible for all that to be true for all those instances. 6th is more, let me think of the right word here, ah yes, universal, than previous editions.

 

I do not think high agility equates to high combat values or vice versa. I do not think the system should tempt folk into having a higher DEX or CON simply because it makes economic sense (in a character point economy) to have them.

 

Doc

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13 hours ago, assault said:

 

There's the benchmark problem again.

 

A superhero who was at gold medal gymnast level (Daredevil? Robin?) would have much more than 23 Dex.

 

Then how much DEX does a gold medal gymnast have, and why should they be as combat-skilled as Daredevil or Robin? I don't believe the benchmarks changed in 6e.  Looking at p48, we have Skilled (11-13), Competent (14-20 - I would think "skilled" is better than "competent", but OK), Legendary (21-30) and Superhuman (31+).  That table also puts CV 11+ as superhuman, but it's where I see most "highly trained normals" when I see character builds.

 

Examples of DEX - a soldier, cop or pickpocket has 11-13.  So EVERY super is way more agile than a cop or soldier.  Sleight of hand artists and elite soldiers have 14-20 - so EVERY super is better than the most elite of soldiers?  Legendary is "Elite martlal artist" - wow, virtually every Super is at least in that class, which encompasses DEX 23.  Now, Batman and Daredevil are elite martial artists, right?>  So, they have the same DEX as every other super?  That is not the right benchmark in my view.

 

13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

A superhero who was at gold medal gymnast level (Daredevil? Robin?) would have much more than 23 Dex.

 

Well given that anything over 20 is extreme human outside range, 23 is a pretty good "nobody gets better than this" human level.  That's where I'd peg an Olympic level gymnast -- based on STR, of course, the only quantified stat we have to work with. I mean I guess you could multiply INT x10 for IQ, but intelligence in Hero is less about how smart you are than how perceptive you are, how quick your mind is, and how good a memory you have.  You can have a low INT and be smart as a whip, just slow or imperceptive, or have a gigantic INT but be basically stupid but highly perceptive with a great memory.

 

I'm not sure every Olympic gymnast is "legendary".  How many can you name?  Bruce Lee is legendary for his martial arts prowess. 

 

12 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Conclusion: ANY CV above 3 costs more in 6e than in 5e.  Period space space carriage return line feed.  6e's DEX/CV changes do not give any hero a "cost break" like you claimed, unless you're proposing that bystanders are more competent than your heroes.

 

Agreed - one reason starting points went up.  +1 OCV and DCV cost 6 points in pre-6e.  Not 9 - 3 came back from the Speed Rebate.

 

10 hours ago, SpaceknightFenix said:

Compared to normal folk, even most trained folk. People can be surprisingly clumsy, even if they are well-trained, but superheroes don't often accidentally drop things.

 

It's not often relevant how often they accidentally drop things.  We don't see them play baseball or football much either.  They must all have Life Support, too as I hardly ever see them eat, drink or sleep.

 

10 hours ago, SpaceknightFenix said:

Green Lantern is a pilot. Hal's good enough to be considered for experimental flying, those are guys who typically flew fighter jets, which is an elite class of reflexes and perception in it's own right, excelled beyond their peers, and showed exceptional discipline. I would eat my left shoe if a guy like that didn't have exceptional agility.

 

Sounds like they are "elite soldiers" with a DEX of 14-20.  I don't see many builds with a 17 DEX for a Green Lantern type.

 

10 hours ago, SpaceknightFenix said:

 Martian Manhunter is a shapeshifting alien with super speed, his agility by default, is superhuman. Aquaman is a superhuman martial artist, when he is shown respect, without his super strength he can still wade through dozens of dudes in rapid succession. Elongated Man is a shapeshifter, just being a shapeshifter means you can move in ways a normal person cannot, that's agility. Red Tornado is a wind elemental housed in a robot, I somehow doubt their agility is demonstrably human. Cyborg is still faster than most folk, by a fair margin, he's not quite capable of keeping up with speedsters, but he is tuned fast enough to not just get completely torn apart by the superhumanly fast Deathstroke.

 

MM flies fast.  Where is he shown being unusually agile or dextrous?  Aquaman swims fast.  Ditto.  EM is shot by normal thugs all the time - how is that a CV of 8 to 10?  Red Tornado flies fast, but he blocks attacks with walls of wind - he doesn't evade them.  Bullets bounce off Cyborg's shiny armor - he doesn't dodge those 4-5 CV thugs.  Or does everyone with a handgun have a DEX in the legendary range in your view?

 

"Exceptional" meaning "skilled or competent" - in the 13 - 18 range?  Sure.  But "exceptional" in the "all of them are legendary level agile"?  No.  But that is what the stats say.

 

10 hours ago, SpaceknightFenix said:

Depends on the high school athlete in question, an average one cannot hold their own against a dozen other people in a fight and, even without their powers, most superheroes can. Those that can't are guys like Billy Batson, who under it is a a normal kid, but with his powers, he has the speed of Mercury, which is nonsense levels of fast. Do you think that these guys are incapable of performing many of the flips that an olympic level gymnastics, with their powers?

 

Most of those are experienced Supers.  In Marvel, we hear that a lot were "trained by Captain America", which sounds like they spent XP on martial arts even though they rarely fight HTH.  I see few 13 STR Blasters invest 20 or 30 points in Martial Arts, but nothing stops them.  I also don't see Tony Stark use those moves in his armor, so apparently they don't transition well.

 

The speed of mercury seems to manifest in flight speed (velocity), not feats of agility.  He does fly remarkably well, though.  No, I do not consider every Super Olympic calibre.  The modern age Mr. Terrific was an Olympic medallist, as I recall. When I see him in the comics, he is far more agile than most of his JSA teammates, not just on par with their averages.

 

48 minutes ago, SpaceknightFenix said:

No, I'm calling the idea of not using physical attributes to define attributes, to instead use what used to be derived values to define everything, a mistake. Essentially: if someone is fast and agile, don't just buy them lightning reflexes, higher skills, and OCV/DCV, buy them dex, it's what it's there for. I'm also holding 6e as flawed because dexterity has no connection to OCV/DCV, but I firmly approve of derived stats. For the odd character who is fast, but not accurate, Lightning reflexes exists. Among many other flaws.

 

And we circle back again to why everyone competent in combat should also be an olympic level gymnast.  Since every PC is stronger, tougher and more agile than a normal person. why don't we just have one stat - it gives you everything.  We'll call it "Heroic". A normal person has 10, and derives their lift, HTH damage, OCV, DCV, SPD, agility skills, STUN, REC, BOD, END, PD, and ED from it.  Hey, heroes are impressive and string-willed, and pretty swift on the uptake - may as well toss mCV, ego rolls, resistance to mental attacks, PER rolls, INT rolls, interaction skills, PRE attacks and PRE defense in there too.

 

How much should it cost?

 

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On 4/20/2019 at 8:43 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

That's why a lot of games hard-code bonuses to hit and frequency of actions.  Less flexibility makes it tougher to build a truly useless character.

 

It also covers the flip side of that equation.  It makes it harder to build an overpowered game breaking monster of a character.

 

Constrained values make a more predictable power curve and allow for designing monsters of specific challenge levels that are more likely to work.

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1 minute ago, Doc Democracy said:

Though in the same D&D game I have seen players contrive to make monsters and useless characters, achievements made more obvious by their existence right next to one another...  🙂

 

Doc

 

It still happens, but it takes a bit more work.  On the flip side - especially in organized play (Adventurer's League) the DM has to put up with your broken character.  I'm looking at you Padlock, Sorlock, and Sharpshooter/Crossbow expert with a hand crossbow.

 

I've DM'd at conventions and watching the look on some new players face when he realizes he's being out-classed by a massive scale is kind of sad.  You can see the fun drain from their souls.

Player 1 - My level 11 fighter swings his axe for 3x (1d8+5) = 28.5 pts of damage per round.

Player 2 - My level 11 fighter sharpshoots his hand crossbow for 4x (1d6+15) = 74 pts of damage per round and ignores range penalties and cover and doesn't have to deal with moving into position.

 

That's probably my least favorite aspect of organized play.  It would be like a player buying +12 OCV with swords - only to attack eyeballs - and being forced to allow it.

 

Bob sweeps and hits 3 enemies in the eyeballs at once - ooh, aaah, feel the balance.

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1 minute ago, Toxxus said:

 

It still happens, but it takes a bit more work.  On the flip side - especially in organized play (Adventurer's League) the DM has to put up with your broken character.  I'm looking at you Padlock, Sorlock, and Sharpshooter/Crossbow expert with a hand crossbow.

 

I've DM'd at conventions and watching the look on some new players face when he realizes he's being out-classed by a massive scale is kind of sad.  You can see the fun drain from their souls.

Player 1 - My level 11 fighter swings his axe for 3x (1d8+5) = 28.5 pts of damage per round.

Player 2 - My level 11 fighter sharpshoots his hand crossbow for 4x (1d6+15) = 74 pts of damage per round and ignores range penalties and cover and doesn't have to deal with moving into position.

 

That's probably my least favorite aspect of organized play.  It would be like a player buying +12 OCV with swords - only to attack eyeballs - and being forced to allow it.

 

Bob sweeps and hits 3 enemies in the eyeballs at once - ooh, aaah, feel the balance.

 

I guess that this one of the tings I actually like about HERO, all of the imbalance is right there in front of you - there are very few black boxes that those in the know exploit.

 

It is also one of the reasons that I have come down very firmly in the camp opposed to figured characteristics, there are things you really do need to buy to be efficient, little black boxes that deliver more than they seem to and others that deliver much less on a pro-rata basis.  I am just about to balance the characters submitted for my Golden Age game (if I eventually receive the final promised character).  One of the things I need to do is show how truly efficient high SPD is.  So much more opportunity to be in the spotlight, deliver damage or recover from damage taken...  The other thing I need to do is protect particular areas for characters (who is strongest, who is fastest, who can withstand most damage etc)  I like every character to have something that they stand above the other characters and, in this game, above everyone else in the game (that is for recurring characters, there is potential for one-offs to break this rule).

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21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I guess it depends on your definition of "exceptional."  The Thing is pretty slow and clumsy, but most superheroes are pretty agile -- more so then the average person -- if for no other reason than having combat training. Is that exceptional?  Well compared to me it is.  Compared to The Flash, not so much.

 

Just to point out... Ben Grimm ran with a street gang as a child... played football in high school, went to Empire State University on a football scholarship, and served in the US Marine Corps as a test pilot in WWII.  I'd say that qualifies him for at least DEX 18, SPD 4-5.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Just to point out... Ben Grimm ran with a street gang as a child... played football in high school, went to Empire State University on a football scholarship, and served in the US Marine Corps as a test pilot in WWII.  I'd say that qualifies him for at least DEX 18, SPD 4-5.

 

 

 

Speed is ALWAYS a difficult call.  You think that Ben Grimm qualifies to run more than twice as fast as a normal person.  Normal person SPD 2, 12m running (24m NCM), so 48m every 12s.  SPD 5 puts him at Olympic level (around 10s for 100m).  From memory Ben was not in a high speed position and I do not see many test pilots competing as Olympic sprinters. 

 

Not looking to quibble - I think there are indeed good reasons to push for both DEX and SPD and I do not think that unenhanced running speed will pose game breaking questions because a character was given a speed that meant the player was provided enough time in the spotlight.  I think any decent player will be able to justify any characteristic they think it important for them to have - this is make believe we are playing - I just don't think that raising one ability should demand an increase in any others...

 

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57 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

It's not often relevant how often they accidentally drop things.  We don't see them play baseball or football much either.  They must all have Life Support, too as I hardly ever see them eat, drink or sleep.

Sounds like they are "elite soldiers" with a DEX of 14-20.  I don't see many builds with a 17 DEX for a Green Lantern type.

MM flies fast.  Where is he shown being unusually agile or dextrous?  Aquaman swims fast.  Ditto.  EM is shot by normal thugs all the time - how is that a CV of 8 to 10?  Red Tornado flies fast, but he blocks attacks with walls of wind - he doesn't evade them.  Bullets bounce off Cyborg's shiny armor - he doesn't dodge those 4-5 CV thugs.  Or does everyone with a handgun have a DEX in the legendary range in your view?

"Exceptional" meaning "skilled or competent" - in the 13 - 18 range?  Sure.  But "exceptional" in the "all of them are legendary level agile"?  No.  But that is what the stats say.

Most of those are experienced Supers.  In Marvel, we hear that a lot were "trained by Captain America", which sounds like they spent XP on martial arts even though they rarely fight HTH.  I see few 13 STR Blasters invest 20 or 30 points in Martial Arts, but nothing stops them.  I also don't see Tony Stark use those moves in his armor, so apparently they don't transition well.

The speed of mercury seems to manifest in flight speed (velocity), not feats of agility.  He does fly remarkably well, though.  No, I do not consider every Super Olympic calibre.  The modern age Mr. Terrific was an Olympic medallist, as I recall. When I see him in the comics, he is far more agile than most of his JSA teammates, not just on par with their averages.

And we circle back again to why everyone competent in combat should also be an olympic level gymnast.  Since every PC is stronger, tougher and more agile than a normal person. why don't we just have one stat - it gives you everything.  We'll call it "Heroic". A normal person has 10, and derives their lift, HTH damage, OCV, DCV, SPD, agility skills, STUN, REC, BOD, END, PD, and ED from it.  Hey, heroes are impressive and string-willed, and pretty swift on the uptake - may as well toss mCV, ego rolls, resistance to mental attacks, PER rolls, INT rolls, interaction skills, PRE attacks and PRE defense in there too.

How much should it cost?

It's absolutely relevant, it's an indication of how clumsy they are, also, if they catch it (like Star-Lord did in the movies) then it demonstrates that they just messed up, but were fast enough and accurate enough to correct their mistake.

Martian Manhunter has legitimate superhuman reflexes, he has kept up with Ultraman, who is AU!Superman, while Ultraman is kind of an arrogant jerk, and he probably shows absolutely no respect for anyone not his equal, he is superhumanly fast. Have you even read the comics? Depending on the iteration and how hard he's fighting that day, he can square off against entire teams of notably fast, trained, experienced combatants, and go through them like a psionic, shapeshifting Superman really would. Martian Manhunter doesn't often evade attacks, because he doesn't often need to, he's practically immune to everything but fire, and even fire's a psychological thing with him, which is much the same reason Cyborg or even Superman don't bother to dodge bullets more often than not, even if there's absolutely bullets that can kill all three of these characters.

Considering how I described it as basically being 'essentially the best' 18 is probably lowballing it. Pilots probably have 13-18, with US Navy pilots being on the higher end (owing to having overall rougher training and requirements, especially for carrier night landing. Which is a serialistic nightmare if ever there was.)
The speed of mercury grants him all of that stuff.  Otherwise, it wouldn't be the speed of Mercury, it'd be the mobility of Mercury. Not quite the same thing.

That's because you've never read any books where he's had to fight someone in hand to hand, mostly because he generally doesn't have to, but it does come up, like the time he almost beat Madame Hydra.

He is, but I'll remind you that comic book characters, and subsequently, comic book Olympics, do not abide by real world rules. Batman is demonstrably superhumanly strong, tough, fast, and agile, despite being an unpowered human, by real world standards. He can pick up half a ton, make thirty foot leaps in heavy armor, with a gigantic fire/explosion-resistant cape, and a massive utility belt full of more stuff than can actually fit in it. This is a world where you find a half-Asian woman who can shove her fingers through swords, her hands through chimneys, dance between bullets, and turn a man's heart off like it was a particularly aggressive light switch. Her only power is 'training', because this womanis the 3rd Batgirl.

By default? Yes, to one degree or another, the only reason Stephanie Brown lasted as long as she did, was because she was standing next to far more capable heroes.The wimpiest hero on the Justice League can hold a motorcycle over their head, that is Olympic level. This is because the characters are impossible ideals.

For a normal person? 0 points? I was fine with the 5e costs. Yeah, dex is a bit ridiculous, but all of the stats are ridiculous if you shove 60 points into them. Except maybe Ego, if you aren't dealing with psionics in any way.

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1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Then how much DEX does a gold medal gymnast have, and why should they be as combat-skilled as Daredevil or Robin?

 

Strictly speaking, a gold medal gymnast can have any Dex you want to give them, as long as they have high enough skill rolls in Gymnastics. 8 or 10 would be perfectly fine.

 

If their combat skills are actually relevant in a game, either one of two things would apply. Either they are (roughly) as combat-skilled as Daredevil or Robin (actually I should have written Nightwing, since the Robin I was thinking of was Dick Grayson), in which case they would have comparable Dex and Spd; or they are basically just normals, and I don't really care about their Dex and Spd.

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I'd argue Ben Grimm's probably got a high SPD, probably middling dex, because it's all skill for him. An 18 dex, SPD 6 or so, 4-5 levels of HTH, boxing, and a few HTH damage classes would probably cover it. I say this, because he has demonstrated repeatedly that he is an extremely skilled fighter, capable of trashing entire armies of goons, punching above his strength class, and massively outclassing the guys that are in his weight class, through sheer skill.

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22 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

But SPD 6 means that he does 100m in about 8.5 seconds leaving Usain Bolt in a heap of trembling muscle...do you see Thing as a sprinter???

If the desired character is human movement-speed and superhuman combat-speed, buy high SPD and sell back some Running. 

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38 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

But SPD 6 means that he does 100m in about 8.5 seconds leaving Usain Bolt in a heap of trembling muscle...do you see Thing as a sprinter???

 

I see this as a reason SPD shouldn't reflect movement... but I'm not in the least advocating that we decouple those.  

 

It's been years since I've seen an OHOTMU, but there's a Marvel Wikia that says this about him: 

 

Quote

Master Combatant: He is uniquely gifted in the art of hand-to-hand combat (a skill Ben honed long before he became the Thing), though his fighting style tends to be a rather loose brawling technique all his own. This style often incorporates collegiate wrestling techniques, Boxing (as he has been stated to have spent hours upon hours honing his boxing skills in the gym during college), and on at least one occasion even Jujutsu. In his youth, Ben was a talented football player.

Peak Human Speed and Agility: Despite his abnormal size and weight, Ben is able to move as fast and as freely as he did when he was human.
 

 

 

 

It also puts his "Speed" rating, which measures movement, as "normal human".  I'd put his SPD at a hard minimum of 4.  I would say that he might very well count as an Olympic class sprinter.  "Peak Human Speed and Agility" for sure says DEX 20, SPD 4. 

 

My point is, I've seen "The Thing is slow and clumsy" a lot, and I wanted to break that meme.  He's not slow and clumsy.  He gets tagged by agents a lot because why waste time dodging when their attacks will bounce off his rocky hide?

 

 

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Having a SPD 6 doesn't mean you run three times as fast as a normal person.  It means you react three times as fast; can make three times as many adjustments to your plans. 

 

We all remind each other all the time when seeking / offering help with unusual builds that it is entirely possible to sell speed back.  SPD 6 with 2" movement means you don't run one cussed bit faster than SPD 2 with 6" movement.  However, youre reaction time is way, way better. 

 

Why is it that while we all know this, every time the DEX / CV conversation comes up, we conviently forget it? 

 

 

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1 minute ago, massey said:

I think this tread should actually be titled “dissenting views NOT welcome”.

 

If there were no dissenting views there would be bog all to talk about!  I am pleased there are dissenting views but welcome does not mean accepted without debate though...

 

Doc

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1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Having a SPD 6 doesn't mean you run three times as fast as a normal person.  It means you react three times as fast; can make three times as many adjustments to your plans. 

 

We all remind each other all the time when seeking / offering help with unusual builds that it is entirely possible to sell speed back.  SPD 6 with 2" movement means you don't run one cussed bit faster than SPD 2 with 6" movement.  However, youre reaction time is way, way better. 

 

Why is it that while we all know this, every time the DEX / CV conversation comes up, we conviently forget it? 

 

 

It means exactly that you move three times as fast as a normal. Selling back that ability is the outlier'

 

I have never seen anyone do this particular sell back.

 

Selling back a stat to reach a given value is all well and good . It doesn't change your character's functionality in a given phase.

 

Selling back your movement affects you in every phase. I've never seen a character with 2" of primary movement. I suppose it is possible with some blaster or stretching concepts but  I would consider that a gimped build.

 

Buying another movement power to compensate  means you recognize that. I wouldn't give any discount to a character built on this premise. It's like selling back your OECV on a non-mentalist. You never were using it from the start.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Having a SPD 6 doesn't mean you run three times as fast as a normal person.  It means you react three times as fast; can make three times as many adjustments to your plans. 

 

We all remind each other all the time when seeking / offering help with unusual builds that it is entirely possible to sell speed back.  SPD 6 with 2" movement means you don't run one cussed bit faster than SPD 2 with 6" movement.  However, youre reaction time is way, way better. 

 

To do that you have to reduce the standard amount of movement allocated to a starting character.  Obviously this is possible but if the argument for figureds is it is more intuitive, reducing your movement because you increased your speed is NOT intuitive. 🙂

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2 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I see this as a reason SPD shouldn't reflect movement... but I'm not in the least advocating that we decouple those.  

 

It might not surprise you that I would be interested in that kind of decoupling, movement bought per turn and divided between phases like Duke was reaching toward and SPD used as non-movement actions.

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1 minute ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Aint nothin’ perfect not even Doc Democracy or Cassandra....

 

😄

 

I don't care what you say about me, but are you implying that Lynda Carter doesn't look perfect in her Wonder Woman costume?

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