HS 6e is mechanically the best version of the rules; dissenting views welcome

[dmjalund]

13 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

1) I saw a commercial for Louis and Clark where Superman gets thrown by a ninja and I thought “No way” and in a ninja guy.

Lois & Clark, Louis & Clark were the explorers

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, dmjalund said:

Lois & Clark, Louis & Clark were the explorers

Oops my bad.

[Ninja-Bear]

Iirc, the Street -Level characters from the BBB such as Crusader and Seeker as built are still world class athletes.

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Hugh thanks for the clarification.  Yup I can see Spidey  CV 8 . Perhaps he should have some Lightning Reflexes with a successful Danger Roll? (Now that goes into having a Characteristic based character which would be easier for new players or more “precise” and complex builds.)

 

I can see Spidey at CV 8 in a world where his opponents are not CV 8 minimum and scaling up from there.  I think a pretty credible Spidey could have a high Dodge (Martial Dodge + levels, perhaps), his near-infalllible Danger Sense and a much higher SPD than campaign norm, which he would use a lot to Dodge.  It always seems like Spidey can Dodge that incoming attack, react with a counterattack, then be ready to Dodge again.  That could be SFX of high DCV, or it could be a high SPD with many phases used to avoid, rather than attack.

[CptPatriot]

19 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I can see Spidey at CV 8 in a world where his opponents are not CV 8 minimum and scaling up from there.  I think a pretty credible Spidey could have a high Dodge (Martial Dodge + levels, perhaps), his near-infalllible Danger Sense and a much higher SPD than campaign norm, which he would use a lot to Dodge.  It always seems like Spidey can Dodge that incoming attack, react with a counterattack, then be ready to Dodge again.  That could be SFX of high DCV, or it could be a high SPD with many phases used to avoid, rather than attack.

 

I think it would be fair to say that his DCV could be considered as he can "dodge" all the time except under limited circumstances(buying +5 to DCV with an appropriate limitation). That way he can "dodge" and still act.

[ScottishFox]

2 hours ago, cptpatriot said:

 

I think it would be fair to say that his DCV could be considered as he can "dodge" all the time except under limited circumstances(buying +5 to DCV with an appropriate limitation). That way he can "dodge" and still act.

 

Maybe +5 DCV bought as a power with a limitation like Requires a Danger Sense roll (-1/2).

[Spence]

On 6/24/2019 at 9:00 AM, Brian Stanfield said:

If the goal was to provide professionally finished adventures and campaigns, then I absolutely agree with you. However, what I’m envisioning here is something to go on the downloads page, which is all unprofessional (for the most part), and offered up by players for use by other players. One of the most frequent complaints about 6e and HERO in general is that there aren’t any adventures available which are ready to run. Everyone on the forums has probably created adventures and larger campaigns, so if we all simply offered up our notes and character write-ups we’d have a huge pool of ready-to-go adventures. No art would be needed, nor any finished editing, just the plot points, conflicts, villains, etc. it would be an almost instant archive of adventures that people have run (and presumably enjoyed). 

 

This is is obviously a makeshift idea at first, and completely an amateur effort, but it could become a very real and valuable resource to keep the community going. It’s just a thought. . . .

 

It's an old thought and has been proposed before.  It didn't work then, won't now.   More below.

 

On 6/24/2019 at 11:58 AM, Scott Ruggels said:

 

So.... basically like a digital version of Rogues Gallery? I could actually see that working. For the graphically challenged, there would probably have to be a Word Template of some sort and editable tables, but I could see that working. Solicit ideas so you can have a batch of material ready per quarter, and build up a back log. and just keep pumping it out, regularly. Quality is what attracts customers. Consistency is what retains them.

 

It does work when officially sanctioned and contained within official guidelines.

 

Examples:  DM's Guild (WotC) and Miskatonic Repository (Chaosium)

 

Unofficial fan builds posted on a forum simply doesn't work for what this game needs. 

 

The game needs adventures readily available at a "official location" (such as DriveThruRPG) using actual Champions source material.  For instance I ran a mini-campaign (5th Ed) that had an unnamed mastermind hiring Grab and Merc-Force 1 to acquire needed items for his master plan. Of course neither villain team knew about the other one.  The players were faced with solving a crime spree with the different robberies being carried out with completely different methods, one seeming to avoid casualties and one that seeming indifferent to the body count.  

 

If this was Call of Cthulhu I could grab the template and writers guide.  Type it up including the full write ups of Cheshire Cat and the rest of Grab and Merc-Force 1.  I could use specific locations in Hudson City or Vibora Bay.  And then drop it in the Miskatonic Repository on DriveThruRPG for $ and Hero Games would get a few $ for each sale. 

 

WotC's DM's Guild guidelines has a few more specifics on which setting material you can use, but then it is WotC.

 

Green Ronin had M&M Superlink for Mutants and Masterminds. 

 

All of them had "official" sanction provided a LOT of ready made adventures and campaigns for novice players.  All of them required little to no time or money from the parent company and yet was very flexible method to create a pool of resources for players and GM's while generating a small trickle of income for them. 

 

The idea of just having people donate adventures and posting on a forum never works because they cannot actually post everything.  My crime spree is a perfect example of why it fails. 

 

For example:  Bob the gamer actually found out that Champions exists and actually discovered the one place on the planet is may be purchased.   wants to try to play Champions.   He then shells out $40 for a B&W 1980's style 240 page book Champions Complete despite seeing the full color glossy 319 page Mutants and Masterminds Deluxe Heroes Handbook for $39.95.    So Bob now armed with a rulebook wants to try out the game.  Since Champions Complete completely lacks anything to actually play, he does what every new gamer does.  He jumps on his computer and looks for an adventure for the game he just bought.  After being puzzled about the Hero not supporting their game at all, he discovers the Hero Website and locates the "free adventure download section" and is happy to find an adventure and downloads "Crime Spree".   Then discovers that in order to actually use it he needs to buy two more books.  Two more 1980's B&W textbooks style books (one book if talking 6th Edition).

 

In the end unless they take a new course the game will disappear.   Remember the old quote "Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results".  Well Hero has been stuck here for literally a decade.  Sticking to the "gamers will not play pre-built adventure" fantasy while not taking advantage of the avenues made available by new technology will just accelerate the slide into obscurity.

 

Tap into the the fan base for adventures?  Absolutely. 

 

But that spring has been thoroughly tapped for ten years or more.  

 

A new approach needs to appear. In this case the bandwagon of "official" e-adventures via an online store is a very feasible low cost/time alternative that is working for other lines.

 

In the end it is no skin off my nose.  I've managed to land myself 4 copies of Fred and 3 copies of the Character Creation Handbook.   One copy of Fred was POD.  I have to revise my opinion of POD as this is a decent book and nothing like the mess of POD I experienced years ago.  I wish DriveThru had Hero System Sidekick Revised so I could get a few POD copies. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Spence I agree with you on additional books. I’m not sure how many suggestions have been made on these forums with ....well to play you need to buy x amount of books. At least back in the BBB days, how many minor write ups were take this character, drop this and add that-done.

[Brian Stanfield]

14 hours ago, Spence said:

It's an old thought and has been proposed before.  It didn't work then, won't now.   More below.

I’d love to hear more about this, since I’m relatively new to the forums. What was the old approach that didn’t work?

 

14 hours ago, Spence said:

The idea of just having people donate adventures and posting on a forum never works because they cannot actually post everything.  My crime spree is a perfect example of why it fails. 

 

For example:  Bob the gamer actually found out that Champions exists and actually discovered the one place on the planet is may be purchased.   wants to try to play Champions.   He then shells out $40 for a B&W 1980's style 240 page book Champions Complete despite seeing the full color glossy 319 page Mutants and Masterminds Deluxe Heroes Handbook for $39.95.    So Bob now armed with a rulebook wants to try out the game.  Since Champions Complete completely lacks anything to actually play, he does what every new gamer does.  He jumps on his computer and looks for an adventure for the game he just bought.  After being puzzled about the Hero not supporting their game at all, he discovers the Hero Website and locates the "free adventure download section" and is happy to find an adventure and downloads "Crime Spree".   Then discovers that in order to actually use it he needs to buy two more books.  Two more 1980's B&W textbooks style books (one book if talking 6th Edition).

I totally grok the disappointment that DOJ doesn’t seem interested in supporting their own game. Jason Walters is going crazy about supporting Champions Now, which is a re-design of 3e. I wish he/they would put as much energy into publishing adventures & campaigns, as you say. And full color art?! Don’t even get me started. And I totally wish they’d offer some sort of third party license like the other games. This seems like the easiest way to do things. But since that’s not happening, I simply offer an addition to the downloads page as a solution. Heck, I guess I could start a forum topic where people can upload their adventures. Folks are doing this in individual threads all the time. Why not centralize it? Just a dream, but one that we, as a community, can do something about. 

 

But the rest I just don’t understand. I’m not trying to be obtuse or argumentative. Why can’t we post everything? Are you referring to the “official” material, like villains and things like that, and locations like Vibora Bay or whatever? That I can see as a problem, but DOJ has shown a readiness to offer licensing for such a thing. I’m not even sure the license costs anything if you aren’t making any money off of it. But not all adventures need to be “official” in this way. In fact, I suspect most HERO players now are using their own creations to a large extent. That’s just a baseless guess on my part, and pure conjecture. But really, if we’re all already spending time making adventures anyway, why is it a bad thing to save all the info into a file, add a cover page explaining what characters, villains, or other books are needed, and add it to a repository? If people are playing, but are desperate for new adventures, it seems to say to me that they’ve created their own stuff but ran out of time or ideas. An adventure swap where you add what you’ve got and grab what you want doesn’t seem all that crazy to me, and doesn’t have to violate any intellectual property laws. 

 

I’m assuming “Crime Spree” uses the villain books of some sort? (Sorry, I don’t know the “official” material all that much, and never have cared either). For players who care about the official material, I guess they’d be buying the books already. If I want to make stuff in D&D, it sure helps to have the Monster Manual, for example. There are a lot of third party products, but they’re getting pretty sophisticated, large, and pricey. And many of them assume you have some of the books already as well. In all honesty, that’s how things have always been. I haven’t looked at the M&M and Call of Cthulhu sites, so I don’t know how they do things. Maybe you have some insight there you can tell me? I’m always curious about these things. Anyway, I’m sure DOJ would be a lot more cooperative about using their intellectual property in adventures if the potential sale of other books was part of the transaction. Just conjecture on my part again. 

 

But it in all seriousness, there’s got to be tons of “unofficial” material clogging up people’s hard drives that could easily be shared with almost no hassle. I wonder why everyone seems to complain that there are no adventures, but then don’t even think of offering what they’ve done in exchange for what others have done? I went to Origins two weeks ago and collected seven new adventures from GMs in the HERO System alone! They’re always (in my experience) willing to share their ideas, and I didn’t have to do anything for them except ask. Which brings me back to the first point: what was done before and why didn’t it work?

 

Anyway, @Spence, this isn’t a diatribe aimed at you. I hope you don’t take it that way. 

[ScottishFox]

WoTC and Paizo produce high-end eye-candy that really grabs attention while only the very largest of stores even have any HERO system books and they tend to be the older editions.

 

You can't judge a book by its cover, but if the cover doesn't catch your attention it's unlikely that you'll dig any deeper.

[Andrew_A]

On 2/1/2019 at 11:58 AM, Jagged said:

Been following this thread for a while now. Nearly posted a few times. Wrote long posts that never got submitted because threads like this are why I left these boards for over a year and now I am back only really post in "Non-gaming" and "General roleplaying" forums. Still, here goes:

 

"Mechanically best" - no idea what that means and care even less.

 

From my point of view 6e changed loads of things in Champions that gave it its flavour; To solve problems I never experienced; Which when explained to me made me wonder if those games had a GM? Worst still, those problems were placed ahead of the real problems that Hero System suffered from, which was all about getting people to play the game.

 

If you spend any time in other gaming forums you will know that the "consensus" is that Hero is Complex, Hero is Slow, GURPS is better. Did we do anything to change that? We produced a big, enourmous, blue book. ? At a time when the market direction was for small and simple and quick and old skool. Great job!

 

Finally I think "The Story of COM" is very representative of where its all gone wrong imo. No new player ever had to ask what COM was. It was a dirt-cheap points sink. It provided 10 minutes of fun at the start of every campaign while we worked out who was the prettiest. Now we have "Striking Appearance" ?

 

I think we built a game that was perfect for a small group of people on this forum, which is unsellable to the general gaming public. Harsh, but I think true. At least we have some pretty covers again.

 

 

Sorry to jump ahead and I don’t know if this has been addressed elsewhere. If so, apologies.

 

Hero Games built a game to address these problems. It was called Champions: New Millennium (a.k.a. Fuzion) and most people (besides me) HATED IT. After that level of epic failure, why should Hero Games try anything like that again? Everybody says they want a simpler, faster version of Hero, but I honestly don’t see anyone here accepting it, not when Comeliness (the dumpstat to end all dumpstats) is so controversial.

 

I mean if you were gonna streamline HS, what would you get rid of? What would you keep? And are the people here - the loyal customers - all gonna be okay with that? Will you gain more customers than you lose? Does anybody here want to put up their own money to test that?

[assault]

From the playtest drafts I saw, Champions Now goes a long way towards streamlining things for the superhero genre. It doesn't try to address other genres.

On the other hand, it does things that I suspect a lot of people aren't going to like. In that respect, it risks being like Fuzion.

 

I've never paid much attention to Fuzion. The C:NM setting didn't grab me. (In retrospect, the fact that it even *had* a setting was part of that.)

 

But I've also read comments that suggested that it wasn't really complete, with various rules modules scattered here, there and everywhere. Is that right?

[ghost-angel]

It was complete enough for each game book that was using the Fuzion Rules (and Champions was not the only one). Bubble Gum Crisis 2033 was the first Fuzion game, and it had enough rules to run that genre. If you had a bunch of different Fuzion games, supplements, and splay books you could get more options for rules into play, for sure. It was definitely of the "every splat book gives you something new to add to the game" model.

[Spence]

On 6/26/2019 at 11:37 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

Spence I agree with you on additional books. I’m not sure how many suggestions have been made on these forums with ....well to play you need to buy x amount of books. At least back in the BBB days, how many minor write ups were take this character, drop this and add that-done.

 

Thank you for the first.

 

But you lost me on the rest. 

 

What I was referring to by books is this.  When a person buys an adventure, all places, creatures, NPCs and threats should be in it complete.  You should not have to buy additional books to get the stats for things encountered.  Both Miskatonic Repository and DMs Guild allow people to do this. 

 

 

In my mini-campaign Crime Spree I use the two villian groups Grab and Merc Force 1 and Hudson City or Vibora Bay as the location depending on the game and Hero mix.  If I were to post it on the forum, it would be useless to a novice GM because I would have to leave out the villain stats/flavor and couldn't directly port in location info. 

 

To be useful and promote Champions, the adventures need to be set in that universe and use its NPCs. 

 

I hope the clarified my earlier confused ramble.

[Ninja-Bear]

Spence let me clarify some of my above post. What I was referring to  was back in the BBB days, i remember this technique for a “new” character  and use the base BBB.  The author said, ok for Dragon Master minions take Viper agents drop this and add that-done. From Normals Unbound there was notes to use Seeker for a character write-up for Samurai if the GM needed too.  

[Spence]

On 2/1/2019 at 8:58 AM, Jagged said:

Been following this thread for a while now. Nearly posted a few times. Wrote long posts that never got submitted because threads like this are why I left these boards for over a year and now I am back only really post in "Non-gaming" and "General roleplaying" forums. Still, here goes:

 

"Mechanically best" - no idea what that means and care even less.

 

From my point of view 6e changed loads of things in Champions that gave it its flavour; To solve problems I never experienced; Which when explained to me made me wonder if those games had a GM? Worst still, those problems were placed ahead of the real problems that Hero System suffered from, which was all about getting people to play the game.

 

If you spend any time in other gaming forums you will know that the "consensus" is that Hero is Complex, Hero is Slow, GURPS is better. Did we do anything to change that? We produced a big, enourmous, blue book. ? At a time when the market direction was for small and simple and quick and old skool. Great job!

 

Finally I think "The Story of COM" is very representative of where its all gone wrong imo. No new player ever had to ask what COM was. It was a dirt-cheap points sink. It provided 10 minutes of fun at the start of every campaign while we worked out who was the prettiest. Now we have "Striking Appearance" ?

 

I think we built a game that was perfect for a small group of people on this forum, which is unsellable to the general gaming public. Harsh, but I think true. At least we have some pretty covers again.

 

 

I just saw this via another reply.

 

Pretty spot on.  I remember any disagreement was first poo poo'd, then attacked and then you got "warnings".  Not because you said anything off base.  But because you desagreed with one of the "Golden Ones" who could do no wrong.   I actually was sternly warned because I said "we'll just have to agree to disagree" to one of the Old Gods.

 

I actually left the forum for over a year (or more??). 

 

I have actually posted more in the last few weeks than I usually do.

 

I don't know why because I really don't think anything will come of it.  All we ever see is yet another rule set. Soap, Rinse, Repeat.

 

Champions needs Champions Campaigns and Champions adventures so people that buy Champions can play a Champions game and see a first hand example of how to do it.

 

Hero may not be able to do it now.  But they can turn loose fans in the same manner as the GMs Guild and the Miskatonic Repository generating a small revenue stream while also stoking renewed interest.  Once (hopefully) there is a renewed interest with (hopefully) increased sales, they can look at an official Adventure Path style Campaign as well as a modern style glossy color repackaging of the rulebook.

 

But first people need to play.  And to do that you need complete self contained entry style adventures.

 

 

[Spence]

18 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Spence let me clarify some of my above post. What I was referring to  was back in the BBB days, i remember this technique for a “new” character  and use the base BBB.  The author said, ok for Dragon Master minions take Viper agents drop this and add that-done. From Normals Unbound there was notes to use Seeker for a character write-up for Samurai if the GM needed too.  

Ah!  I get you.  My mind was on the other rail 😳