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Steve

I Rolled A 3... On This?

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I've been using this ever since I stole it from Killer Shrike... probably a decade ago.

 

RULE OF THREE if a character (PC or NPC) rolls a natural three on a 3d6 roll under type of check then they have the option of either taking "max effect" or an "epiphany".  

 

MAX EFFECT If the three was made for an Attack Roll max effect is the maximum possible damage or effect with that attack (treat all effect dice as having rolled 6's). If the three was made for a non attack roll, not only does the character win any opposed roll (even if the opponent made their roll by more) or succeed at their task, but they do so in a stylish looked-cool-doing-it fashion which is also justification for gaining a "Display of Power" bonus to a Presence Attack made sometime within the next few actions against anyone that observed them.  

 

EPIPHANY The character has a flash of insight regarding the skill or ability that they rolled a three for and their competency with that ability is expanded. The character gain +2 character points to allocate towards a bonus with that skill or attack. For attacks this translates into a +1 OCV Combat Skill Level with that attack. If a skill this translates into either a +1 or +2 with that skill depending on whether the skill is on the 3/2 or 2/1 costing model. If the three was rolled for a familiarity, the familiarity becomes a full skill instead. This can not be used to upgrade existing levels; for example a character could not opt to bump an All Combat level to an Overall Level with the 2 free points gained in this fashion -- the 2 pts must be spent specifically for the task they were gained from. However, levels gained in this fashion can themselves be upgraded later with experience. For example a 2pt +1 OCV level with a specific kind of pistol could be upgraded to a 3pt "Pistols" tight group level later on.

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Ive been using Shrike's epiphany rules myself.  Great for supers games, but I had to tone it down a bit for heroic.  For those, I count each 3 as a pip, three pips to a point. 

 

Just using the straight out 3= 1pt lead to some serious "super-skills" in short order. 

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In our game this week, the ninja assassin and martial artist social terrorist (these are the PCs) facing off against the bruising professional hitman with a .460 S&W... they finally got in close after being scattered by massive shots through the walls and grenades... everyone in the room in temporarily deaf from all the concussive blasts... hitman almost cuts the social terrorist in half... ninja say, "If I'm right... I think he's out of bullets."  I have him roll an INT roll, and he gets a 3. "Yep... he's out of bullets. And I'll give you plusses to initiative because you are ready for that moment. (We use initiative and combat rounds, not the SPD chart.)

 

I immediately start cracking up as well, as I have to then tell them all about the "I rolled a 3 for that?" thread.

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On 2/24/2019 at 5:47 PM, Manic Typist said:

I've been using this ever since I stole it from Killer Shrike... probably a decade ago.

 

RULE OF THREE if a character (PC or NPC) rolls a natural three on a 3d6 roll under type of check then they have the option of either taking "max effect" or an "epiphany".  

 

MAX EFFECT If the three was made for an Attack Roll max effect is the maximum possible damage or effect with that attack (treat all effect dice as having rolled 6's). If the three was made for a non attack roll, not only does the character win any opposed roll (even if the opponent made their roll by more) or succeed at their task, but they do so in a stylish looked-cool-doing-it fashion which is also justification for gaining a "Display of Power" bonus to a Presence Attack made sometime within the next few actions against anyone that observed them.  

 

EPIPHANY The character has a flash of insight regarding the skill or ability that they rolled a three for and their competency with that ability is expanded. The character gain +2 character points to allocate towards a bonus with that skill or attack. For attacks this translates into a +1 OCV Combat Skill Level with that attack. If a skill this translates into either a +1 or +2 with that skill depending on whether the skill is on the 3/2 or 2/1 costing model. If the three was rolled for a familiarity, the familiarity becomes a full skill instead. This can not be used to upgrade existing levels; for example a character could not opt to bump an All Combat level to an Overall Level with the 2 free points gained in this fashion -- the 2 pts must be spent specifically for the task they were gained from. However, levels gained in this fashion can themselves be upgraded later with experience. For example a 2pt +1 OCV level with a specific kind of pistol could be upgraded to a 3pt "Pistols" tight group level later on. 

 

Nice.  I just borrowed this too 😁

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On 3/2/2019 at 12:25 AM, Scott Ruggels said:

Wait... initiative? in HERO?  Really?!?!

 

Can't tell if you are seriously asking, or being sarcastic (or facetious... or both)... but the answer to your question is "Yes, we use initiative and action rounds and not the SPD chart."

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19 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

Can't tell if you are seriously asking, or being sarcastic (or facetious... or both)... but the answer to your question is "Yes, we use initiative and action rounds and not the SPD chart."

Doesn't that make things harder> Moving from HERO to 5e, I long for the speed chart back again.

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20 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 but the answer to your question is "Yes, we use initiative and action rounds and not the SPD chart."

 

I'll admit that one had me wondering too.

 

Is there a thread out there discussing the thought behind the choice?

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2 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Doesn't that make things harder> Moving from HERO to 5e, I long for the speed chart back again.

 

Well, have been doing it for twenty years or more without the Speed Chart... man, closer to 30 at this point... and when we tried, just for play test sake, to go back to the SPD chart for the Champions Now playtest, we were SO frustrated. Hated going back.

 

1 hour ago, Spence said:

I'll admit that one had me wondering too.

 

Is there a thread out there discussing the thought behind the choice?

 

We have a very rapid system that works really well, and IMO speeds up HERO combat quite a bit, and we use it all the time.  (It is a House Rule I and my group developed and tested over time. I think I spelled it out in at least one other thread, because I remember some PMs about it and one GM considering trying it. Let me see if I can find what I wrote.)

 

Short of it... I and my play group hated the SPD chart for various reasons, primarily the lack of engagement by players (many different players over many play groups) whenever it wasn't "their phase" or whatever. At the basic level of having every player having an action each round, it keeps the whole table "leaning in" to see what happens as they always have at least something to contribute. The GM call, "Ok... Initiatize!"   (which isn't a word, but we say it) is the moment everyone sits up, pulls out their dice and things start to happen, combat time engages, etc. 

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Well... this is a throwback mention of it... though I know I was talking about it with someone in July of last year, so I'm trying to find that more recent post.

 

EDIT:

 

Ah found the more recent thread...
 

 

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On 3/4/2019 at 3:16 PM, RDU Neil said:

 

 

Short of it... I and my play group hated the SPD chart for various reasons, primarily the lack of engagement by players (many different players over many play groups) whenever it wasn't "their phase" or whatever. At the basic level of having every player having an action each round, it keeps the whole table "leaning in" to see what happens as they always have at least something to contribute. The GM call, "Ok... Initiatize!"   (which isn't a word, but we say it) is the moment everyone sits up, pulls out their dice and things start to happen, combat time engages, etc. 

 

...but... isn't a Turn the same thing as a round, especially since as described your Initiative system allows for multiple actions each "round" for higher SPD characters?

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On 3/4/2019 at 12:23 PM, RDU Neil said:

 

Well... this is a throwback mention of it... though I know I was talking about it with someone in July of last year, so I'm trying to find that more recent post.

 

EDIT:

 

Ah found the more recent thread...
 

 

 So, the rolls work for the entirety of the engagement? like D&D? yes?  What you describe is not nearly as bad as D&D. Just....hmmm.....

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3 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

 

...but... isn't a Turn the same thing as a round, especially since as described your Initiative system allows for multiple actions each "round" for higher SPD characters?

 

A turn in the SPD chart (if I'm remember correctly) is all 12 segments... so characters would have their full number of SPD in actions by the end of that turn.

 

My "combat round" is simply "everyone gets one action" and then maybe, some characters get second action. Then another combat round starts. A "turn" for game alignment purposes, would be four combat rounds where every character got at least one action each round... and maybe if characters had high enough SPDs and if they rolled high enough, might get an extra action. Most importantly, none of those actions happen in a set order, as the order changes based on initiative each round.

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3 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 So, the rolls work for the entirety of the engagement? like D&D? yes?  What you describe is not nearly as bad as D&D. Just....hmmm.....

 

No... the rolls happen each combat round, so the order changes after each "action" for the most part.

 

example: C1 = 4 SPD... C2 = 4 SPD... C3 = 5 SPD

 

First initiative: C1 rolls a 3, so plus 4... goes on 7.  C2 rolls a 1, plus 4 goes on 5... C3 rolls a 5... goes on 10... that round, C3, then C1, then C2 action order.

 

Second initiative C1 rolls a 2, so goes on 6, C2 rolls a 6, so goes on 10, C3 rolls a 6 so goes on 11 and gets a second action... that round, C3, C2, C1, then C3 again.  

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So, to me, unless I'm missing something... the only major difference is that the order of who does what varies each "turn."

 

Because for me a round and a Turn are really the same thing - it's a system for tracking "has everyone gone at least once?" Some people get to go more than once but in both HERO and D&D, in the "base unit" of "taking turns" a Round and a Turn fulfill the same purpose. HERO, and your adaptation of Rounds, allows some people to go more than once before everyone has gone at least once (and then yours shuffles the order before doing it all again).

 

Have I misrepresented?

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10 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

your adaptation of Rounds, allows some people to go more than once before everyone has gone at least once

 

This is where you were mistaken a bit.

 

1. No one gets to go more than once before everyone gets at least one action...

2. ... and unless you are playing demi-god level speedsters, even the chance for second actions is uncertain (you'd have to have a 10 SPD to always guarantee a second action)

3... and the order of actions changes, so there are possibilities of "slower" characters going before "faster" characters at times. (which is typical of initiative systems)

 

This moves away from the set pace of the SPD chart where every round, every time, everyone acts in the same order, and players can calculate optimized "game actions" rather than respond to the immediacies of combat that shift in the moment. The ultimate benefit I've found is that in game play, the higher SPD characters just don't dominate play time as much (or at all) which happened all the time with the SPD chart.

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11 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

The ultimate benefit I've found is that in game play, the higher SPD characters just don't dominate play time as much (or at all) which happened all the time with the SPD chart.

Making SPD 10 the new SPD 4 will certainly do that! 

Did you recost SPD to account for these changes? 

How frequent are post-12 recoveries under your system? 

Did you allow Lightning Reflexes (at a different price?), or was that cut? 

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20 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Making SPD 10 the new SPD 4 will certainly do that! 

Did you recost SPD to account for these changes? 

How frequent are post-12 recoveries under your system? 

Did you allow Lightning Reflexes (at a different price?), or was that cut? 

 

1. Kept the 10 point cost per the same, and it has been fine. In fact, I've noticed a different spread of SPDs in our supers games. (IMO it makes 10 points a much more fair cost than the single most undercosted thing in HERO when you use the SPD chart.

 

2. We don't play traditional END, (i've mentioned our END rules other places) but getting rid of Post 12 and all the was one of the main points. All these false stops and starts and awkward timing structures... having a more organic flow to combat... it starts and goes until it ends

 

3. Lightning Reflexes have been tested and basically just aren't worth it in this system. It is rarer than with the SPD chart that two characters roll the same initiative and have the same DEX... but it could happen and Lightning Reflexes would help one go first. We have one PC in the current game, a quick, two gun guy, who has it... but it has only come up once. A test, but if he finds them not worth it, happy to put the points elsewhere. We've also been doing the rule since before Lightning Reflexes were a thing (5th right?) and so no one ever really took them... just one of the Talents not used, and in fact I didn't notice for years until the recent player asked about them. 

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1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

How do you handle Held Actions, or do you allow them?

 

 

So you can hold an action until the end of a countdown... so if you initiatize 10, you can hold until 1 the use it or lose it. I also tend to expect more than just "I hold" but "I hold most likely ready to fire if I see movement" or whatever. Then, if the held action becomes something very different than what was intended, I make a INT or DEX or PER roll, whatever makes sense. If a player holds and then responds to a declared action, it can result in a DEX off, or whatever roll off makes sense... again, situational.

 

So "First actions... any held first actions are done at end of held first actions... then Second actions (if any) and the count down starts again." If a player wanted to technically hold to Dodge or Block a second action attack, and somehow got all the way through first actions without using theirs, they could just declare at the end of 1st actions "I go defensive" and the Dodge bonuses carry over, just like they do.

 

Now... maneuver modifiers do NOT carry over between initiatives. If you Dodged in round one, it covers first and second actions in round one, but the mods "clear" at the start of Round 2. The only thing that does carry over is the Block lets you go first thing. If you are hand-to-hand with an opponent and block on Round 1, no matter what your initiative, if your action on Round two is a follow up attack, it will go first. Any other action goes on that ROund 2 initiative.

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On 3/7/2019 at 7:27 PM, RDU Neil said:

 

A turn in the SPD chart (if I'm remember correctly) is all 12 segments... so characters would have their full number of SPD in actions by the end of that turn.

 

My "combat round" is simply "everyone gets one action" and then maybe, some characters get second action. Then another combat round starts. A "turn" for game alignment purposes, would be four combat rounds where every character got at least one action each round... and maybe if characters had high enough SPDs and if they rolled high enough, might get an extra action. Most importantly, none of those actions happen in a set order, as the order changes based on initiative each round.

 

How do you handle the duration of Flash attacks and the fade rates of Adjustment powers?

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29 minutes ago, Steve said:

 

How do you handle the duration of Flash attacks and the fade rates of Adjustment powers?

 

Flash did have to be recosted back to 4th Edition costs, and it is 1 action per body rolled... so if a flashed character has two actions, they "shake it off" faster than someone without. It has worked well (or at least feels right and hasn't been an issue in play this way.)

 

Adjustment powers... I always have to look them up as they aren't used a great deal, but we usually translate segment/phase/turn into action/Round/Turn... and as I said, four of my rounds equal a Turn that is equivalent to RAW, then after that, time segments are the same. Basically in play it comes down to, "How many rounds are you "pumped up" or "drained" in general. 

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