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Summon Giant Eagles is also one of those campaign breakers.  Gandalf's player tried to use it, and the GM flipped the table over and started ranting about how much time he'd spent prepping the game.  "I even wrote a damn language for the elves!" he said.

 

Finally he was like "you can't do that!"

"I can too!  I paid the points for it!"

"No you can't!  Because.... because... because the Nazgul have these like, big ass flying dinosaur things!"

 

Then the GM reminded Gandalf that he hadn't chipped in for pizza for the last couple months, and Gandalf decided they'd just walk to Mordor.

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On 2/18/2019 at 12:01 PM, Doc Democracy said:

 

You know.  I have been playing this since 1981 and I can never remember having quite enough points to buy everything that I wanted for any character...maybe I am just greedy...

 

There are always enough points... it's just, how badly do you want that last one?  :)

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2 hours ago, massey said:

Summon Giant Eagles is also one of those campaign breakers.  Gandalf's player tried to use it, and the GM flipped the table over and started ranting about how much time he'd spent prepping the game.  "I even wrote a damn language for the elves!" he said.

 

Finally he was like "you can't do that!"

"I can too!  I paid the points for it!"

"No you can't!  Because.... because... because the Nazgul have these like, big ass flying dinosaur things!"

 

Then the GM reminded Gandalf that he hadn't chipped in for pizza for the last couple months, and Gandalf decided they'd just walk to Mordor.

 

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Massey I think it was more of:

 

Gandalf: I summoned the Eagles!

 

GM: ok -Eagles....Contact 8-. Gandalf go ahead and roll.

 

Gandalf: I rolled 1, 3 &.....6! Bleep I should’ve spent more on Contact!

 

After Gandalf's speech there was a brief silence, and then the King of Eagles spoke.

"Gandalf, I and my people hold you in high regard and greatly esteem your wisdom. But what you ask of me now seems the greatest folly. I am no wizard but I am not wholly without lore,  and I know something of this Ring you speak of. It I were to bear it aloft into the sky, it would blaze like a beacon to the Eye of Sauron; within three beats of my wings he would know where it is, and if he bent his powers to beguile me, I cannot say I would not bear you and your small friend and the Ring straight to his doorstep. If he chose to blast rather than to beguile, or set his own winged servants upon us, I would not expect to reach the borders of Mordor alive. Indeed, it would likely cost my life to try to pass that border even if I did so alone and without carrying that treasure he would stop at nothing to reclaim. One does not simply fly into Mordor!"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

One does not simply ride a palindromedary into Mordor either.

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9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Duke, one question/clarification.  You mention playing with a lot of different players, and also teaching them.  To what extent is your experience based on players you did not teach?

 

That is an excellent question, Hugh, and one I'd never before stopped to wonder. 

 

I've been giving it some thought, and it's hard to answer.  I mean, I could say "I don't know; maybe half" and let it ride, but out of respect for you and the others, and my enjoyment of the things I am learning here in this thread, the best I can say is "somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4.   _But_.... 

 

Most (not all) of my play groups, at least until say the last ten or so years, are filled with pre-internet veterans.  That doesn't sound significant, until you stop to realize that we couldn't post a question to the mass of humanity and wait for an answer; we certainly couldn't jump onto a website and ask the guy that wrote the book. 

 

So where did we get answers to questions?  Isolated groups worked it out for themselves (like my first group; I told you about our "gaming store" :lol: ) by study of what was given in the books and and nigh-endless discussion. 

 

But there were game stores and rec centers (we had a rec center) where other gamers hung out.  We could talk to them, too, so long as we played the same game. 

 

Game stores were big one (eventually, we all lived close enough to make semi-regular trips to a couple of different ones). 

 

And we'd sit in on each other's games now and again, and there was almost always something--or a couple of somethings--the other group did differently.  If we liked it, we'd adopt it, and if we didn't, then we didn't.  Same for them, too: if they liked it, etc. 

 

Local colleges and high schools weas where the bulk of gamers seemed to come from, and certainly they discussed the games as much as anything else (except possibly dating, for the high schoolers).  I know I kept in touch with every gamer I could find on the ol college campus. 

 

All of that is a long way around to say that even at those tables I didn't teach, how much "local influence" were we already sharing before we even sat down together?  How many learned from people I taught, or who taught me?

 

I have no real way to evaluate that, except to say that I can assume "more than I would have thought," given how much easier it used to be to teach the game.  :lol:

 

Okay, I kid on that last line: I know our brains harden as we get older, and that's kind of sad to me.  :(

 

So again, really good question, but I don't know if I can answer it any more accurately than if you'd asked "other than my GMs, who else has affected the way I play?" 

 

I just don't know, accurately. 

 

 

 

(Take the following _only_ as the good-natured teasing it is meant to be:) 

 

Quote

 (e.g. our group never had an issue with killing attacks because it was pretty much an unwritten rule they were not used against living targets).

 

.... Says the guy who knows that KA is the most effective way to deliver _STUN_ to a target.....  :lol:

 

  ;)   Seriously: I've been playing slug abed for two days now with the flu (turns out the shot people guessed wrong this year), and I just needed a good laugh (and subsequent coughing and hacking fit. :lol:

 

 

 

Quote

 

I think many early Champions players drew their build styles largely from published characters (from the 1e sample characters onwards)

 

That's entirely possible; the only published characters we had access to for years were the ones in the rules book, but we seem to have used them differently.   We didn't look at them as models for "how to build a character" or "what a character should look like" as much as we used them as references for specific bits of build:  how to use a multipower; how to apply an advantage; what's a "good" CON or a "typical" DEX. 

 

That sort of thing. 

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1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

(Take the following _only_ as the good-natured teasing it is meant to be:) 

 

 

.... Says the guy who knows that KA is the most effective way to deliver _STUN_ to a target.....  :lol:

 

  ;)   Seriously: I've been playing slug abed for two days now with the flu (turns out the shot people guessed wrong this year), and I just needed a good laugh (and subsequent coughing and hacking fit. :lol: )

 

The reality is that I did not consider KAs to be a big deal.  Our group rarely used them, and pretty much never on living targets.  It was on these Boards that someone made a case that caused  me to look at the math - and he was right.  That was the point where I recalled all those Agents with 2d6 RKAs which would, at least on occasion, get a good enough roll to do some damage to a Super designed for 12+DC attacks.

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3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Back to Multipowers. Massey’s movement MP. It’s not over powered and well it’s ingenious. I would’ve never thought of it. The thing is, his reasoning for it, like keeping all movement powers at 11” to get the rounding, is too metagamey for me.  To me it’s an example of mechanical build fine but concept- not so much. Of course that’s a IMO of course.

 

I build a movement multipower like that for my PC's more often than not. You just don't see many examples of supers being slower than an agent whose bought a couple of points of running so I figure most heroes have a low level of movement power even when they don't have a high amount of movement. Though I haven't add Swinging to the multipower. That's probably a mistake since I'd never thought of Swinging as being SFX super-parkour.

 

And I always buy the maximum amount of movement I can get in the slot whether that turns out to be a rounding breakpoint or not. I can always slow down but it's difficult to increase my movement speed if I don't put it on the character sheet. :)

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There is a tension here between narrative and sim.  The narrative NEEDS heroes to get where they are going and does not really care (except in a few cases) how they get there, the journey is mostly not where the story is.  The simulation is concerned about HOW the heroes get there (fast running, swimming, teleporting, flying etc).  The question might often be, do you want your game to be the one where one of the heroes catches a taxi because that is going to be their fastest way to travel (because he was a batman rip-off that did not have enough spare points for the Bat-mobile)??

 

I do remember one perfect moment where lack of movement caused a great in-game point.  It was Golden Age, Nissei was a second generation female martial artists, Radnor the Magnificent a norwegian stage magician.  The player of Radnor was dissatisfied with his character - it was a lot of small effect VPPs and magical items and no real combat oomph.  The player of Nissei was content to swap.  It was a great moment as the second player immediately projected a stage magician persona on Radnor that really brought him to life.  One of Radnor's complications was old-fashioned values (and this was already the Golden Age).  It was almost the first call to arms for the group and they were travelling from a variety of places and Nissei and Radnor were in the same place.  Radnor stepped on his magic carpet and took off, Nissei indicated she had no way to get there beyond running (at +2" running).  Radnor simply said "Worry not young lady, I do not think this madness is appropriate for you to endanger yourself, I shall return for you when it is safe!"

 

It was funny at the time, slightly frustrating for the martial artist's player, especially as it was his old character that he thought was useless that was leaving him in the lurch, it was the magician player perfectly playing the complication (it complicated the situation) and the party found another way for Nissei to get there.  It does highlight that appropriate as the powersets were, they did not help the flow of the story and there will not (IMO) be enough Nissei/Radnor moments to justify the interruption to the narrative as everyone suddenly stops to figure out if everyone can get there.

 

The question is, is multipower the answer or should we be looking at something else?  Or is this something that every group needs to sort out every time they sit down to a game or begin a new campaign?

 

Doc

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21 hours ago, archer said:

 

I'd also note that Lord of the Rings doesn't work as an adventure if you've got access to giant eagles which can fly you to your volcano destination without trouble.

 

Totally off topic, but I always hated this "dig" at LotR because it was very obvious that the Giant Eagles or any openly moving force, could not make any headway into Mordor while THE EYE was still blazing. The entire trilogy is rife with examples of "any time we do anything open and obvious the Eye sees it and plans are crushed, we must sneak and hide and ultimately distract the Eye if we have any chance."

 

The Eagle assault would have never worked, or even been considered under these clearly known circumstances. It was a bad internet meme that became a bad critique.

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19 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

Totally off topic, but I always hated this "dig" at LotR because it was very obvious that the Giant Eagles or any openly moving force, could not make any headway into Mordor while THE EYE was still blazing. The entire trilogy is rife with examples of "any time we do anything open and obvious the Eye sees it and plans are crushed, we must sneak and hide and ultimately distract the Eye if we have any chance."

 

The Eagle assault would have never worked, or even been considered under these clearly known circumstances. It was a bad internet meme that became a bad critique.

 

Almost posted to this effect earlier.  They cover it in the books as well.  Without the distraction of Aragorn's army at the gates there would be no chance for the hobbits nor the giant eagles to get into play without being spotted and eliminated.

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On 2/19/2019 at 6:09 PM, massey said:

One of the things almost every one of my characters has is a Movement Multipower.  My trained martial artist characters end up with something like this:

11 point Multipower

1u -- +5" of Running

1u -- 11" of Swinging (defined as conveniently placed light poles, signs, etc, basically super-parkour)

1u -- +5" Swimming

1u -- +7" Superleap

 

A potential problem here, depending on your GM, is that you can usually only set the slots in a MP once per phase.  That might mean that, if you have already decided to put your points in running and the board under your feet breaks when you are only half way through your movement, you can't then chuck your keys in a bowl (Swinging) to get out of danger.  That is not a criticism of the movement multipower, so much as a way in which you may pay for the discount.

 

A far more abusive movement MP is this:

 

40 Get Out Of That Multipower, 40-point reserve

4f 1) Flight 40m (40 APs) 4

4f 2) Flight 5m, x256 Noncombat (40 APs) 4

4f 3) Teleportation 22m, No Relative Velocity, Safe Blind Teleport (+¼) (40 APs) 4

 

NCM slot and a teleport for when you get entangled or need to bypass a wall, stop suddenly or get aboard a Bullet Train.

 

Also has anyone done Tuneable Shields yet?  That normally really upsets someone:

 

48 Tuneable Shields Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 APs); all slots Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to

Activate; -¼)

5v 1) +24 PD, Hardened (+¼)  (30 APs); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -¼) 3

5v 2) +24 ED, Hardened (+¼)  (30 APs); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -¼) 3

5v 3) Resistant Protection (20 PD) (30 APs); Costs Endurance (Only Costs

END to Activate; -¼) 3

5v 4) Resistant Protection (20 ED) (30 APs); Costs Endurance (Only Costs

END to Activate; -¼) 3

5v 5) Resistant Protection (20 Flash Defense: Sight Group) (30 APs); Costs Endurance

(Only Costs END to Activate; -¼) 3

5v 6) Resistant Protection (20 Mental Defense) (30 APs); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END

to Activate; -¼) 3

5v 7) Resistant Protection (20 Power Defense) (30 APs); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END

to Activate; -¼) 3

 

Each slot is 30 APs and you have a 60 point reserve, so you can have two slots running at full or pick and mix against more versatile opponents.  They are all variable slots so you do not have to have them running at full blast.

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9 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

Why is “Only cost END to Activate” a Limitation?

 

Because by default those powers don't cost any END at all. And a power that costs END is more limited than one that does not.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary hopes that's the END of the matter

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Lucius said:

 

Because by default those powers don't cost any END at all. And a power that costs END is more limited than one that does not.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary hopes that's the END of the matter

 

 

Then it should be rephrased “costs END but only to activate” or just “costs END to activate” because putting the only first implies it normally costs END

[/PEDANT]

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4 hours ago, dmjalund said:

Then it should be rephrased “costs END but only to activate” or just “costs END to activate” because putting the only first implies it normally costs END

[/PEDANT]

 

We could rephrase it 'Cost END but only costs END to activate', then drop 'Costs END but' as that would be obvious from context.

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The character has spent 53 points to have options other than +20 PD/+20 ED resistant.  He could have spent those points on:

 

 - hardening his 20 rPD/rED for 12 points (41 points left)

 - buying 15 points each of resistant flash, power and mental defense that costs END to activate (45 more points)

 

He can make up those 4 points by purchasing 4 less END, as he will not need to switch his defenses.   He has a bit less defense than if he can perfectly tune against his opponent, but he does not have to guess what attack options the opponent may have, and switching to Hardened PD/ED will not mean the villain switching to an RKA hospitalizes him.

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5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The character has spent 53 points to have options other than +20 PD/+20 ED resistant.  He could have spent those points on:

 

 - hardening his 20 rPD/rED for 12 points (41 points left)

 - buying 15 points each of resistant flash, power and mental defense that costs END to activate (45 more points)

 

He can make up those 4 points by purchasing 4 less END, as he will not need to switch his defenses.   He has a bit less defense than if he can perfectly tune against his opponent, but he does not have to guess what attack options the opponent may have, and switching to Hardened PD/ED will not mean the villain switching to an RKA hospitalizes him.

 

83 points:typo.

Yeah, you could have 25/25 , make 15 of each resistant and that will cost you 65 points.  The remaining 18 points goes on 6 Flash/Pow/Mental Defence.

 

OR... you could have 10 RPD/RED and 12 PD/ED (hardened), then, when you know what your opponent uses as a main attack, become virtually invulnerable.

 

The Tuneable Shields I suggested are not the most efficient build for general combat.  Drop the last 3 slots and save 15 points.  Split the remaining slots make half of each fixed.

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On February 20, 2019 at 5:53 AM, Doc Democracy said:

There is a tension here between narrative and sim.  The narrative NEEDS heroes to get where they are going and does not really care (except in a few cases) how they get there, the journey is mostly not where the story is.  The simulation is concerned about HOW the heroes get there (fast running, swimming, teleporting, flying etc).  The question might often be, do you want your game to be the one where one of the heroes catches a taxi because that is going to be their fastest way to travel (because he was a batman rip-off that did not have enough spare points for the Bat-mobile)??

 

I do remember one perfect moment where lack of movement caused a great in-game point. 

 

You've reminded me of our very earliest games, where none of us really had a clue what was what, but we wanted to jump in and play this game!  So we all made characters (wildly bizarre, disparate, mis-matched characters who, without the most extreme of GM intervention, would make a truly ineffective team (you know: a "team" of lone-wolf types :lol:  )  None of us had considered making up for each other's shortcomings-- to the point where we most often shared shortcomings:  "Mute?!  Dude, that sounds like an _awesome_ idea!  Hey, Jim!  My guys mute, too!"  (shameful, but a true story  :(  ))

 

Short version:  we were _incapable_ of keeping _in sight_ of each other, let alone pace, with out-of-combat movement.  More than one character's "movement power" was a bus pass the GM tossed at him.  Those first three or four adventures (we were adamant that we could make these characters work! :lol: ) more often than not were a series of cut scenes:  Okay, so you agree to meet at X in twenty minutes and continue the pursuit.   or: Your the first one here.  You scan the scene, looking for traces of where the villain may have gone.  After speaking with eye-witnesses and posing for the crowd, Dave shows up and crumples against a lamp post.  Dave, you should probably just Recover for a minute or two.  You see a cab headed this way.  Mike, didn't you take a cab?

Okay, is Dave recovered enough to talk? 

Sure.

Great.  I turn to Dave "Greased Lightning, I think I see The Hunter arriving.  Tell him I'm headed south, toward the desert road.  Demonic is riding in a chariot made of skulls, pulled by giant flaming dog skeletons with battle armor.  I haven't seen Lucas at all, but I'm sure he's at the nearest bus stop."

 

 

 

That kind of thing.

 

shortest version?  We could _not_ make those characters work. ;)

 

 

 

On February 20, 2019 at 1:41 PM, RDU Neil said:

It was a bad internet meme that became a bad critique.

 

I got no idea how old you are, Neil, and I'm not asking.  But trust me: that particular "dig" was around a lot longer than the internet. ;)

 

On February 21, 2019 at 2:21 PM, dmjalund said:

Then it should be rephrased “costs END but only to activate” or just “costs END to activate” because putting the only first implies it normally costs END

[/PEDANT]

 

Never, _EVER_ turn off Pedant mode!  NEVER!

 

in a hobby overflowing with AMGs (angry math guys: thanks, Neil ;) ), it is _vital_ that we keep reminding them what the rules say to the people who read the _words_! 

 

:lol:

 

 

 

 

Duke

 

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2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I got no idea how old you are, Neil, and I'm not asking.  But trust me: that particular "dig" was around a lot longer than the internet. ;)

 

I'm old enough to have read them first in the '70s, but I can honestly say I'd never heard that particular criticism until the movies came out and later "How It Should Have Ended" did a thing with it. I'm sure there were old school fan groups for decades before that, but never in my circle of geeks who all read the same books. (You started with Andre Norton and C.S. Lewis, graduated to Tolkien and Burroughs, then Howard,  then Moorcock, then Asimov and Niven and Heinlein, Mccaffrey, Cherryh, etc.).

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Hi, Neil:

 

I'm not going to judge anyone for what jokes they have or have not heard, particularly in the pre-interweb stone age we grew up in.  :lol:   Mostly because jokes just didn't travel like they do now.

 

You're reading list, for example, is foreign to me.  I mean I'm familiar with them, of course.  It's just weird, considering how much I enjoy the way you think, that you and I clearly had different influences.  :rofl:

 

For example:

 

Don't care for Norton or Lewis; have a particular distaste for Tolkien (which I freely admit may have grown over the years as a result of over-exposure; I can't say if that's true or not), LOVED Burroughs, Howard was solidly enjoyable, but never really exciting.  Moorcock and McCaffrey were both hit-and-miss for me, Niven was solid entertainment (it's weird to see a list with Niven, but not Pournelle, who was also one of my preferred reads), adored Heinlein, and detest Asimov  beyond the bounds of reason.

 

Yet I still enjoy your conversations.   Weird.  I have learned that who you are is _not necessarily_ what was poured into you.  :lol:

 

 

 

 

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On 2/22/2019 at 7:00 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

The character has spent 53 points to have options other than +20 PD/+20 ED resistant.  He could have spent those points on:

 

 - hardening his 20 rPD/rED for 12 points (41 points left)

 - buying 15 points each of resistant flash, power and mental defense that costs END to activate (45 more points)

 

He can make up those 4 points by purchasing 4 less END, as he will not need to switch his defenses.   He has a bit less defense than if he can perfectly tune against his opponent, but he does not have to guess what attack options the opponent may have, and switching to Hardened PD/ED will not mean the villain switching to an RKA hospitalizes him.

 

20 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

 

83 points:typo.

Yeah, you could have 25/25 , make 15 of each resistant and that will cost you 65 points.  The remaining 18 points goes on 6 Flash/Pow/Mental Defence.

 

OR... you could have 10 RPD/RED and 12 PD/ED (hardened), then, when you know what your opponent uses as a main attack, become virtually invulnerable.

 

The Tuneable Shields I suggested are not the most efficient build for general combat.  Drop the last 3 slots and save 15 points.  Split the remaining slots make half of each fixed.

 

Actually, I think my typo is 35.  He spent 83 on the MP and could have spent 48 on +20PD/ED Resistant, Costs END to Activate, so the other options cost him 35 points.  He only has 23 left after hardening those defenses, so he could buy 10 normal Flash, Power and Mental defence that cost END to activate.  Now he needs to make up 1 CP.

 

This is a great ability if you are facing a single opponent with limited choice of attacks, very useful in limited circumstances.  I don't see it breaking the game.  If, instead, he bought +28rPD, +28rED, Hardened, costs END only to activate = 84 points, would that be a less unbalanced character for not having a multipower?  Of course, we don't need that much rDEF, so we can reduce that and up the normal defenses even higher.

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On 2/20/2019 at 12:41 PM, RDU Neil said:

 

Totally off topic, but I always hated this "dig" at LotR because it was very obvious that the Giant Eagles or any openly moving force, could not make any headway into Mordor while THE EYE was still blazing. The entire trilogy is rife with examples of "any time we do anything open and obvious the Eye sees it and plans are crushed, we must sneak and hide and ultimately distract the Eye if we have any chance."

 

The Eagle assault would have never worked, or even been considered under these clearly known circumstances. It was a bad internet meme that became a bad critique.

 

Viola! No eagles!

 

https://ffn.nodwick.com/?p=1878

 

 

no eagles LOTR.png

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