Level With Me

[Sean Waters]

15 minutes ago, Lucius said:

 

If that's how you habitually use PREsence attacks, no wonder your players don't like them.

 

If their only exposure to Martial Arts were guys who outclass their Combat Values by 4 or 5, and stun with every hit, they wouldn't like Martial Arts either.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

If every time I put a palindromedary in a tagline I hit you over the head with it, you probably wouldn't like palindromedaries either

 

 

 

Lucius, it is not how I habitually use PRE attacks as I suspect you can deduce, but it is one of the consequences of PRE attacks.  One of the expected consequences, right there in the rules.  The fainting, not the reek of ammonia.

 

Another is that characters have to spend more on PRE than they probably would otherwise to make sure it does not happen, not because that is how the character is envisaged, but because PRE is a defence to PRE atatcks.  Just because none of the PCs have Flash Defence it does not make it unfair or inappropriate to occasionally chuck in a villain with a Flash Attack but, in my experience, players are much more sanguine about their players being blinded for a couple of segments than they are about them running away from a fight when they did not want to, because they can understand their character getting pepper sprayed, they can't understand their character acting in a cowardly manner.  It can damage their relationship with their character.

 

That means it is a mechanic that I don't like to use as a GM in case it works too well.  Speaking of the mechanics of PRE Attacks, they are awful and there is really no downside to using them.  By unspoken agreement in our group players don't use PRE attacks unless something spectacular has just happened, like KOing the strongest villain in a couple of phases and in that situation I'd probably just role play the rest of the villains making a break for it anyway, no mechanic needed.  

 

Moreover they don't really represent anything we see in comics or movies or any other source material.  Goons rarely surrender.  Doesn't make for a fun scene if it is just AmazoWoman rolling up, issuing threats and everyone moving on to the next scene.  There are not any other powers in Hero that can stop a fight before it has even started.  To that extent, if nothing else, it is completely unbalanced and shouldn't be there.

[Lucius]

9 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

 

 

There are not any other powers in Hero that can stop a fight before it has even started.  To that extent, if nothing else, it is completely unbalanced and shouldn't be there.

 

Sure there are. you just have to build the powers right and of course, it may cost a lot of points. And if you're frequently using PRE to stop fights before they start, you must have spent a LOT of points on PRE anyway.

 

And I don't necessarily see anything wrong with stopping fights before they start, at least some of the time.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary reminds me I had something else to say....

[Lucius]

33 minutes ago, Steve said:

 

I disagree, purely from a cost POV.

 

Buying a skill level with all INT-based skills in 6E costs four points, so making it cost five just encourages people to keep buying up their INT until they hit the campaign's characteristic maxima first. Since they're not getting any PER bonus from having this level, even at four points, it is already feeling too overpriced next to just buying more INT.

 

 

Not if buying INT isn't an option because INT as a Characteristic has been abolished.

 

Think about it. One of the things that makes Hero System seem so intimidatingly complex is the abundance of  Characteristics. If we consider that Skills and Skill Levels can do the work we associate with Characteristics, why not drop the Characteristics? Make Perception an Everyman Skill, replace DEX with Lightning Reflexes, use BOD instead of CON for stunning (with a Talent based on "Extra BOD only to resist stunning") and we can eliminate some of these Characteristics.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests using STUN for exertion, and that would be the end of END.....

[Ninja-Bear]

Sean here’s the thing though about PRE attacks, if the players like to use them, then it’s fair game to be used against them. I’ve played 40K in the day and they have a Fear/Terror mechanic. Now before you can say “but it’s a war game”, my point will be that it’s a given mechanic of the game-so if you want to play the game, you accept it. Savage Worlds also has a similar mechic though I can’t remember the name. You do make a case for using it sparingly though. Now I’m not the biggest connisour of comics but PRE does help explain why the Heroes run in while everyone else runs away.

[Ninja-Bear]

And let me add Sean that if your group doesn’t want to use PRE that’s fine, just make it a dormant element. I just wouldn’t advocate getting rid of it from the game itself.

[Greywind]

[Sean Waters]

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Sean here’s the thing though about PRE attacks, if the players like to use them, then it’s fair game to be used against them. I’ve played 40K in the day and they have a Fear/Terror mechanic. Now before you can say “but it’s a war game”, my point will be that it’s a given mechanic of the game-so if you want to play the game, you accept it. Savage Worlds also has a similar mechic though I can’t remember the name. You do make a case for using it sparingly though. Now I’m not the biggest connisour of comics but PRE does help explain why the Heroes run in while everyone else runs away.

 

...no more than you'd need PRE to explain why firefighters run into a burning building when everyone else runs out.  It is what they do, and what they are equipped to do.

 

Also, because it is there, sometimes the Heroes run away too.

[Ninja-Bear]

Sean as a volunteer firefighter I have ran into burning buildings. Also I had to make a psy lim check to climb a 3 story ladder cause I hate heights. And get me in a haunted cavern (house) and i’ll Run like a bat outta Hell. So yeah I see PRE as being useful. As useful as some of the other characteristics. Same courtesy disclaimers apply as normal.

[Jagged]

7 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

 

Moreover they don't really represent anything we see in comics or movies or any other source material. 

Not sure I agree with that. Batman seems built around the idea. Ignoring mundane attacks from mooks (baseball bat to the head) is a repeating image for Superman.

 

Plus remember I had a character with a little more PRE when in costume? That idea was inspired by stuff taken directly from the Spiderman vs Wolverine comic #1*  I loved that and felt it really spoke about who the character was

 

Yes, we only ever used PRE Attacks spontaneously when the situation suggested. Is that a house-rule? Not sure, page 80 (or was it 82) always had the minus dice for inappropriate situations, second attempts etc. So I am sure we were using as intended. 

 

 

 

* Set in pre-unification Eastern block Germany. Excellent story if you can find it, although obviously dated by world history.

[Sean Waters]

39 minutes ago, Jagged said:

Not sure I agree with that. Batman seems built around the idea. Ignoring mundane attacks from mooks (baseball bat to the head) is a repeating image for Superman.

 

Plus remember I had a character with a little more PRE when in costume? That idea was inspired by stuff taken directly from the Spiderman vs Wolverine comic #1*  I loved that and felt it really spoke about who the character was

 

Yes, we only ever used PRE Attacks spontaneously when the situation suggested. Is that a house-rule? Not sure, page 80 (or was it 82) always had the minus dice for inappropriate situations, second attempts etc. So I am sure we were using as intended. 

 

 

 

* Set in pre-unification Eastern block Germany. Excellent story if you can find it, although obviously dated by world history.

 

Batman is terrifying, but still gets attacked by thugs on a regular basis.  The fact that Superman bounces bullets off his chest does not stop people shooting him with them, and they are probably the two greatest examples of PRE and Reputation amongst the Heroes of DC.  Similarly, Hydra never surrender when Captain America shows up.  They might say 'Oh no, it is Captain America', but they still fight him.

 

Getting an opponent to hesitate or gaining a minor bonus for your first attack, that is fine and IIRC, your character maxed out at about 30 PRE.  The problem is though that PRE Attacks are a lot nastier than that and can be absolutely monstrous while well within most campaign guidelines.  I don't like using them against PCs and you and the others only use them when it seems right, because you are naturally fair and decent people.

 

If you actually read the rules though, and apply them as intended (and by 'intended' I just mean 'allowed'), well, see below...

[Sean Waters]

9 hours ago, Lucius said:

Sure there are. you just have to build the powers right and of course, it may cost a lot of points. And if you're frequently using PRE to stop fights before they start, you must have spent a LOT of points on PRE anyway.

 

And I don't necessarily see anything wrong with stopping fights before they start, at least some of the time.

 

OK, here is a detailed note of why I don’t like PRE Attacks, and it is pretty much all down to game balance and effectiveness.  I also don’t like the fact that it is a way for the GM to force the characters to act in a way that is not heroic.  I don’t particularly care if players use it against NPCs, but it is massively aggravating if an encounter that took a couple of hours to prepare is over before the first PS12 because of a lucky roll.  In any event, my players don’t build characters to take advantage of the PRE Attack rules, at least not by buying PRE at AP limits.  I suspect they know how I’d feel about that.

 

My yardstick of combat effectiveness is the Blast.  If a power is significantly better than a Blast in combat (unless it is only in highly specialised and unusual circumstances) then it is overpowered to my way of thinking.

 

In a typical superheroes game, the way we play it, you might expect a 12d6 Blast costing 60 points which costs 6 END to use and you need to succeed in a roll to hit before you can cause any effect on the target.

 

Blast is ranged and is subject to range modifiers, affects a single target, works against normal defences and costs END.  It takes a half phase action to perform and ends your phase when you use it.  The only way to increase the damage output is if you either have skill levels, the use of which is a trade off with OCV and/or DCV or if you Haymaker (which costs you an extra segment and combat penalties) or Push (which costs a lot of END or have ranged Martial Arts.  The latter would probably fall foul of damage caps so I’m going to ignore that one.  An opponent can abort to a defensive manoeuvre to try and avoid a Blast.

 

In our games you can expect most characters will have normal Defences in the region of 24ED&ED and typically hit on an 11 or 12.  They might have 30 to 50 Stun and 20 to 25 CON.

 

This means that they can expect an average of 18 Stun and 0 Body through Defences, causing around 10m of KB and not being enough to Stun most characters.  The hit rate is between 62 and 75% and it usually takes 2 to 5 (but far more often 3 or 4) hits on target to take down an opponent, depending on tactics and other considerations.

 

If you Push and Haymaker, you can do 18d6, which is 63 stun and 18 Body, or 39 Stun and 0 Body through Defences with 22m of KB, on average.  That is enough to Stun almost any opponent and KO just under half of opponents, but leaves you at a significant temporary disadvantage and the attack still has to hit.  In a one on one fight, a Pushed attack that you Haymaker could end it in one hit, but it may not, and if it does not, then you are in some trouble.  Also combats are rarely one on one, more usually team on team of mega villain on team.

 

OK.  PRE attacks.  For 50 points you can have PRE 60, which is cheaper than a 12d6 Blast.  I could have gone for 70 PRE of the same price but, that is the same AP, so we will use that.

 

PRE 60 gets you 12d6 PRE Attack.  It costs no END.

 

PRE Attacks affect everyone they are intended for so long as the intended target can hear and/or see the PRE Attack.  There are no range modifiers and the power is effectively a large selective AoE.  The attack automatically hits all the intended targets.  There are no defensive manoeuvres you can abort to, to avoid a PRE attack and cover and concealment generally do not help.  You can Haymaker a PRE Attack.  Requires the GM to agree but what doesn’t: it is allowed on the face of it.  The effect is immediate, does not allow a Breakout Roll (although the GM can optionally allow an EGO roll to partially reduce the effects, which, frankly, is the sort of weak rule there is just too much of), lasts significantly longer than most combats at higher levels of effect and takes no time and does not end your phase.  This also means that you can make a PRE Attack out of your normal phase, before anyone else acts, no matter how much faster than you they are.

 

Most of our PCs will have a PRE of 15 to 20. 

 

A PRE Attack with 60 PRE gets you 12d6, but there are usually situational modifiers.  These can be positive or negative but let us assume that the attack is being used sensibly.

 

Many Villains will have a reputation.  Even a Negative Complication (Maims Opponents Defeated in Combat, say) can add to your PRE Attack.  Say we get a couple of dice from that.  Then there is violent actions.  If someone has spent 50 points on PRE, they are probably going to use it in a tactically astute way, so maybe another couple of dice there.  Then there is appropriate situation.  Certainly if the villains are attacking they might get some of that.  In Combat loses you a die.  I think a well prepared PRE Attack will get you 2 to 4 extra dice, without being unreasonably generous, lets say 3 on average.  Haymaker gets you 4 more,19 dice of effect, or an average result of 66 to 67 points of effect.  Even without the Haymaker, it is 15 dice - on average 52 or 53 points of effect.

 

Against a Hero with 20 PRE, that is over PRE + 30 Effect. 

 

PRE +30

If the total on the Presence Attack dice at least equals the target’s PRE +30, the target is cowed.

He may surrender, run away, or faint. He is at 0 DCV, and will nearly always follow commands.

 

Against a Hero with 15 PRE, you only need a slightly lucky roll to get PRE +40 (or against pretty much anyone if you allow Haymaker).

 

PRE +40

At the GM’s option, if the total on the Presence Attack dice at least equals the target’s PRE +40, the target experiences the same combat effects as a PRE +30 attack, but the effects on his mind and/or personality are much more severe: mind-blasting horror; sanity-wrenching revelations; awe so strong it inspires fanatical devotion; fear so intense it breaks even the most hardened man.

 

The effects last at least an hour, at that level, and may affect the character for the rest of his life, according to the rules.  Cthulu generally is not that harsh to players, and they go in expecting to come out mad.

 

The rules do allow that a target might make an EGO roll to mitigate some of the effects, but it is not clearly explained how that works and at the EGO +30 level, any EGO Roll would be at -3 (-5 at EGO +40).  Again, assuming PCs to have 15 to 20 EGO, that is a roll of 12- or 13-.  With the penalties, more than half the targets will fail the EGO Roll on average, so even if you don’t melt the brains of every PC, you have crippled the team as a fighting unit with one no-consequence attack.

 

For another comparison, try building something like a PRE Attack using Mind Control and see how far you get.

 

Now if you think that is all fair and balanced, I have a bridge I want to sell you.  If any other power or ability were as powerful as this then either everyone would have it or everyone would have substantially more defences against it, but there seems to be an unspoken agreement we will autonerf it, and ignore the horror it could bring because, well, because of reasons.  Probably.  Oh, look – a distraction!

 

[Sean Waters]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Sean as a volunteer firefighter I have ran into burning buildings. Also I had to make a psy lim check to climb a 3 story ladder cause I hate heights. And get me in a haunted cavern (house) and i’ll Run like a bat outta Hell. So yeah I see PRE as being useful. As useful as some of the other characteristics. Same courtesy disclaimers apply as normal.

 

I'm just not sure that people who are naturally likeable are also naturally brave or naturally terrifying, but PRE does all of those things.  I think that we can be situational brave when we are dealing with things we are expecting or trained for and I think your examples demonstrate that perfectly.

 

You are a volunteer firefighter and have run into burning buildings, but I assume that is because you have the training and expectation that you are going to do that, and the support of others in your worthy endeavour.  In a RPG I'm not going to make the heroes subject to a PRE attack by a burning building to go in and save someone, because what I don't want is to describe in dramatic detail how they hesitate outside until the screams stop.

 

You have a Psy Lim about Heights but that has nothing to do with PRE as such.  Having a high PRE won't help you there, or it would not in Hero.  If the mechanic was that you could voluntarily accept situational PRE attacks when confronted with heights, I'd be fine with that, because you have decided in advance that your character will react a bit randomly in that situation.

 

Finally the Haunted House: if that were a situational PRE Attack then either everyone would run out, or your PRE was low.  PRE Attacks affect everyone equally.  How they react is then determined by their own PRE.  I don't get the impression you would be built with a low PRE, given that you run into burning buildings.  I do think PRE Attacks lack nuance and elegance.

 

If I have a 60 INT or EGO, STR, CON, or a 30 DEX, it might be unusual, but it isn't going to break anything.  If I have a 60 PRE, however...

 

I'm not against a well thought out system for determining how characters in the game should react to certain situations, but I don't think this is is.

[Jagged]

 

28 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

OK, here is a detailed note of why I don’t like PRE Attacks...

Yeah, I think I agree with that.

PRE attack as an alternative to a player attack is horrible.

PRE attack as a natural consequence of a player characteristic, good!

 

 

28 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

because you are naturally fair and decent people.

Thanks, may be in contact for a reference

 

ps: Do those mooks fighting Batman work for Joker? If so, I'd give them a bonus for being more scared of him.

[Jagged]

I also preferred the old multiples of PRE rather than +10 etc. Isn't that how it originally worked?

[Ninja-Bear]

Sean are you really allowing 60 PRE in your game? Cause that files under “just because it’s legal means the GM has to allow it.”

[Vanguard]

23 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

 

 

Ah, now I do appreciate that, but the problem there is that skill levels with INT based Skills do not add to Background Skills based on INT, which, well, makes very limited sense, if any.

 

Nothing's stopping you from making those skill levels with INT based skills adding to Background kills that have been purchased "based on INT".  Cause, to my way of thinking, once you pay those extra points, they're now "INT based" and no longer "Background".

 

At least that's the way we did it.

 

22 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

EDIT: On Perception, I would make it a General Skill, which you could then base on INT if you wanted.  This would mean that intelligent people were not necessarily perceptive, but might be, and animals with low INT didn't keep walking into trees.

 

Only problem with this is you'd have the Min/Maxes paying the extra point to make it Int based so that they could get more bang for their buck.

 

PS: I agree with most of what you've said in this thread Sean, I just happened to have run out of "likes" for the day.  /sigh

[Hugh Neilson]

12 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

Another is that characters have to spend more on PRE than they probably would otherwise to make sure it does not happen, not because that is how the character is envisaged, but because PRE is a defence to PRE atatcks.  Just because none of the PCs have Flash Defence it does not make it unfair or inappropriate to occasionally chuck in a villain with a Flash Attack but, in my experience, players are much more sanguine about their players being blinded for a couple of segments than they are about them running away from a fight when they did not want to, because they can understand their character getting pepper sprayed, they can't understand their character acting in a cowardly manner.  It can damage their relationship with their character.

 

You and I disagree on whether PRE shows up in the source material.  It rarely, if ever, shows up in the "everyone flees in terror" manner.  Just as one hit rarely takes out the Hero or the Villain.  It often causes hesitation, sways those less committed to one side of a cause, etc.

 

I agree that PRE should be the offense stat, not the defense stat.  That should be EGO. 

 

Should PCs pay some points for defense?  Aren't Heroes brave and strong-willed?  That seems like the province of EGO to me, more so now that mCV is divorced from Ego so it is not bundled with mental combat expertise. 

 

2 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

OK, here is a detailed note of why I don’t like PRE Attacks, and it is pretty much all down to game balance and effectiveness.  I also don’t like the fact that it is a way for the GM to force the characters to act in a way that is not heroic.  I don’t particularly care if players use it against NPCs, but it is massively aggravating if an encounter that took a couple of hours to prepare is over before the first PS12 because of a lucky roll.  In any event, my players don’t build characters to take advantage of the PRE Attack rules, at least not by buying PRE at AP limits.  I suspect they know how I’d feel about that.

 

My yardstick of combat effectiveness is the Blast.  If a power is significantly better than a Blast in combat (unless it is only in highly specialised and unusual circumstances) then it is overpowered to my way of thinking.

 

In a typical superheroes game, the way we play it, you might expect a 12d6 Blast costing 60 points which costs 6 END to use and you need to succeed in a roll to hit before you can cause any effect on the target.

 

Blast is ranged and is subject to range modifiers, affects a single target, works against normal defences and costs END.  It takes a half phase action to perform and ends your phase when you use it.  The only way to increase the damage output is if you either have skill levels, the use of which is a trade off with OCV and/or DCV or if you Haymaker (which costs you an extra segment and combat penalties) or Push (which costs a lot of END or have ranged Martial Arts.  The latter would probably fall foul of damage caps so I’m going to ignore that one.  An opponent can abort to a defensive manoeuvre to try and avoid a Blast.

 

In our games you can expect most characters will have normal Defences in the region of 24ED&ED and typically hit on an 11 or 12.  They might have 30 to 50 Stun and 20 to 25 CON.

 

First off, cite me the 6e rule on AP limits.  Steve commented at least once in 6e development that the system is not designed around AP limits.

 

Now, let's move to your yardstick.  If 60 AP is the measure, why am I expecting 24 PD and ED?  60 AP will buy +50 PD, 20 of which is resistant.  30-50 STUN and 20-25 CON are both way less than 60 AP.  Expected SPD should be 8.

 

Blast does  not face an automatic reduction for repeated uses, or for being in combat to begin with.

 

Is the problem the PRE attack mechanic specifically, or that your expected levels of PRE attack and defense are not appropriate? A player who shows up with a Super who has 5 PD/ED and a bulletproof vest will not do so well when hit with that 12d6 Blast, not because the mechanics are flawed but because his character is not built to campaign expectations.

 

To your detailed analysis, you're assuming a 20 PRE.  A 20 EGO versus a 60 AP mental power should consistently be subjected to a +20 level of effect.  A +10 level of effect will face penalties to the breakout roll, and +0 will face even more penalties.  A PRE attack will not cause me to attack my teammates, but Mental Illusions at +20 will cause me to see friends as enemies, and vice versa.  I can use Mental Illusions repeatedly in combat, but I cannot use PRE attacks multiple times without reducing effectiveness.  I can use mental powers from a concealed position 100 meters away - how does one use a PRE attack inconspicuously?

 

The PRE attack is definitely not designed to be an attack power like Blast, Mental Illusions or Drain.  It is a different mechanic, designed for use at lower AP totals.

[Sean Waters]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Sean are you really allowing 60 PRE in your game? Cause that files under “just because it’s legal means the GM has to allow it.”

 

I know it was a long post, but it started with:

3 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

OK, here is a detailed note of why I don’t like PRE Attacks, and it is pretty much all down to game balance and effectiveness.  I also don’t like the fact that it is a way for the GM to force the characters to act in a way that is not heroic.  I don’t particularly care if players use it against NPCs, but it is massively aggravating if an encounter that took a couple of hours to prepare is over before the first PS12 because of a lucky roll.  In any event, my players don’t build characters to take advantage of the PRE Attack rules, at least not by buying PRE at AP limits.  I suspect they know how I’d feel about that.

 

Anyway, this is not some esoteric loophole, this is a core rule that has been here since the start and clearly anticipates PRE Attacks that do hit PRE+30 or more.  It is all well and good saying that I shouldn't use it - and I've been pretty clear that I don't, and for good reason, but is anyone using it?  If not, what the hell is it doing taking up space in an already huge rule book?

 

Hero combat takes long enough as it is.  We don't need another free attack that everyone might as well pop off at the start of combat.  Look, if everyone has 20 PRE then they get a 4d6 PRE attack, which is 14 points, average.  They are going to need at least another 2 dice of bonuses to get to PRE level on a similar opponent, and then all they get is to go before the opponent which I think is of limited utility anyway, in most cases, and that is assuming all the enemies aren't doing defensive PRE attacks to cancel out even that minor advantage.  You'd need 5 bonus dice to get a half phase hesitation and, if the enemy are doing the same all you've done is waste the first five minutes of the session.

 

You'd need 12 dice, that is 8 bonus dice to get PRE +20 and that is pretty much never happening unless you are clearly so much better than the enemy that you have to wonder why the fight is in the scenario to start with.

 

I'm trying to come up with reasoned arguments and, not having a go at you, Ninja Bear, but I'm not getting reasoned responses, I'm getting sentiment.  What need do PRE attacks actually fulfil?  What makes them a useful game mechanic instead of either a waste of time and energy or a completely overpowered monstrosity.

 

No one seems to be using the damn things as they are written, we all voluntarily nerf them because we know instinctively that not doing so is a short road to madness.

 

I simply do not see the point.

 

They are a rule (that takes 4 pages) that, at best, fills a niche, and even then it is a niche in a corner in a room that is rarely used.  I can think of many better uses for those four pages, not the least of which is making the book thinner.

[Sean Waters]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

First off, cite me the 6e rule on AP limits.  Steve commented at least once in 6e development that the system is not designed around AP limits.

 

 

I think it is page 35 of the first book and they are called guidelines not limits, but this is Hero.  5 points in one thing is supposed to be roughly as useful as 5 points in another thing.  I think I've demonstrated that PRE bucks that trend by a serious margin.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Now, let's move to your yardstick.  If 60 AP is the measure, why am I expecting 24 PD and ED?  60 AP will buy +50 PD, 20 of which is resistant.  30-50 STUN and 20-25 CON are both way less than 60 AP.  Expected SPD should be 8.

 

Page 35 again?

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Blast does  not face an automatic reduction for repeated uses, or for being in combat to begin with.

 

 

...and a nice big PRE attack only needs to go off once.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

To your detailed analysis, you're assuming a 20 PRE.  A 20 EGO versus a 60 AP mental power should consistently be subjected to a +20 level of effect.  A +10 level of effect will face penalties to the breakout roll, and +0 will face even more penalties.  A PRE attack will not cause me to attack my teammates, but Mental Illusions at +20 will cause me to see friends as enemies, and vice versa.  I can use Mental Illusions repeatedly in combat, but I cannot use PRE attacks multiple times without reducing effectiveness.  I can use mental powers from a concealed position 100 meters away - how does one use a PRE attack inconspicuously?

 

 

I made it pretty clear they were typical values for my game.  Also page 35 again, and the sample superhero characters in the second book.  

 

Also I can pretty much negate most mental powers with 3 levels in EGO rolls.

[Tech]

20 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

 

Charisma was part of D&D from the beginning. And the wargames that the first role playing games evolved from had morale mechanics.

 

This is neither something unique to Hero, nor a Hero innovation. We're talking about a kind of mechanic that not only predates Hero System, it PREDATES ROLE PLAYING GAMES.

 

And which wargames that the first rpg evolves from were those?

[Tech]

22 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

I have yet to have a player say, "Hey, I paid points for [thing] but it's never come into play."  Then again, I also haven't ever had a player complain, "I got points for [Complication] but it's never come into play." 

 

As GM I do try to work in various odd bits that characters have paid for.  (For example, Circe the mentalist has KS: Fashion, so I had her interact with a supervillain - who worked as a male model before getting his powers - having a relatively long discussion about superhero / supervillain fashions in the middle of a fight, rather than actually, y'know, fighting.)

 

Sometimes, it's up to the player to find ways to use the things he paid for.  If a character has Bureaucratics and the team is investigating an office building they suspect is owned by VIPER, there's nothing stopping that hero from going down to City Hall and finding a way to get the building's blueprints, or tracking down the building's ownership, or whatever else might be useful.

 

Same here Bolo. This is my experience as both player & GM: there are characters that have skills that don't come into play very often. As player, I had 200 xp go by before I used a skill: KS: Plumbing 8-.  However... the time came when that skill suddenly became a central part of hilarity in the game and now shows up now & then. The same applies to a skill being used rarely by other players. However, when those skills kick in, the player becomes the star of the show. As GM, I can't recall every single skill all the PC's have! I'm GM'ing along and introduce a situation to the characters when suddenly a player says "My character has a skill for this."  I've been surprised and I run with it - improvisation! I am well-pleased to go with the improvisation because it's a challenge to me as a GM and a rare opportunity to let a PC shine. I cannot recall ever having a skill someone bought that at some time it eventually gets used, generally surprising others and throwing a fun twist in the works.

[Jagged]

31 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

I simply do not see the point.

I am genuinely surprised to read you say that (is that a thing?). I bet if you asked Matt he could remember a few times he had gloriously successful PRE attacks.

 

I think we all agree with your assertion that they don't work when taken as a power but I don't agree with your analysis that we voluntarily nerf them. The way I remember them from our games, they got used when circumstances allowed the player to effectively double their attack due to bonus dice.  Isn't that "Rules as Written" ?

 

Can I also add that the silhouette of a wolfman ripping through a door was one of may favourite images in the rule book (as well as one of the most frequently looked at pages)

 

 

31 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

Also I can pretty much negate most mental powers with 3 levels in EGO rolls.

Your ability to bend and break Hero System isn't going to convince me there is a problem

 

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, Sean Waters said:

Anyway, this is not some esoteric loophole, this is a core rule that has been here since the start and clearly anticipates PRE Attacks that do hit PRE+30 or more.  It is all well and good saying that I shouldn't use it - and I've been pretty clear that I don't, and for good reason, but is anyone using it?  If not, what the hell is it doing taking up space in an already huge rule book?

 

As @Jagged pointed out above, it, along with all of the other X, X+10, X+20, etc., mechanics were originally X, X times 2, X times 3, etc.  It was a lot harder, if someone bought a few points worth of PRE or EGO, to affect them.  

 

If you're looking at it from the standpoint of the GM, then yes, a villain with 60 PRE and situational bonuses to their PRE attack can in theory wipe out all of the PCs.  But from the standpoint of the GM, you can drop an asteroid on them at any time and kill everyone.  

 

You can choose to wipe them out with whatever you've got, but remember that if you're making the game not fun for your players, they'll leave.  

 

You could as easily give that 60 PRE villain 120 PRE, or a thousand, or a million PRE.  As a GM, don't do that.  ("Doctor, it hurts when I do this!")  The players are a lot more constrained.  

[mallet]

I agree with PRE attacks being overpowered in some cases and I also rarely use them in my games, but with the example Sean has above, with the 60 AP in PRE, and then all the bonuses to make it better, wouldn't that put it over the AP cap for the game? Just like if the in game CAP on OCV is 10, then it doesn't matter how many skill levels used, martial arts, etc... 10 is the highest a character can have in the game. Wouldn't that also apply to PRE attacks? If you have a 60 PRE (12d6) and that is the AP CAP for the game, then the character shouldn't be able to use the situational bonus dice to raise it above 12d6. Just like a Character with 10 OCV in a game with that as a CAP couldn't then use skill levels and MA maneuvers to raise his/her OCV to 12 or 14.  

 

If a Character already has a 60 PRE (with that being the in-game CAP), then he/she is considered to be so impressive already that breaking a car in half or giving a good speech, doesn't do anything extra to impress those around him, he/she is already as impressive as they are ever going to be, so no situational dice should add to the roll. 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

12 minutes ago, mallet said:

I agree with PRE attacks being overpowered in some cases and I also rarely use them in my games, but with the example Sean has above, with the 60 AP in PRE, and then all the bonuses to make it better, wouldn't that put it over the AP cap for the game? Just like if the in game CAP on OCV is 10, then it doesn't matter how many skill levels used, martial arts, etc... 10 is the highest a character can have in the game. Wouldn't that also apply to PRE attacks? If you have a 60 PRE (12d6) and that is the AP CAP for the game, then the character shouldn't be able to use the situational bonus dice to raise it above 12d6. Just like a Character with 10 OCV in a game with that as a CAP couldn't then use skill levels and MA maneuvers to raise his/her OCV to 12 or 14.  

 

If a Character already has a 60 PRE (with that being the in-game CAP), then he/she is considered to be so impressive already that breaking a car in half or giving a good speech, doesn't do anything extra to impress those around him, he/she is already as impressive as they are ever going to be, so no situational dice should add to the roll. 

So a character in a 60 AP cap game can't have a 9d6 Blast because Haymaker exists?  A character in a 10 DCV cap game can't have 8 DCV because Dodge exists?  A character in a 15- skill cap game can't have a 14- Seduction because COM and Persuasion might be complementary? 

 

It's also rather pointless to argue based on "But caps mean this" when there are no rules for caps so you're just claiming your houserule solves everything which means there was a problem that needed solving QED.