GMing Danger Sense

[RDU Neil]

So, I've got a question about Danger Sense and how it is interpreted/used by other in their campaigns.

 

At core, we all get the "idea" of a Spidey-sense or whatever... but mechanically, as stated in the rules, it is simply a form of Detect. A form of Perception roll vs. Danger.

 

But... aren't Perception rolls used against danger all the time, anyway? If a campaign has no Danger Sense, if the PCs are trekking through the woods and you want to see if they notice the elven archers about to pepper them, don't you make them roll a Perception Roll?  How is having Danger Sense giving you something more, unless you you've bought it all the way vs. otherwise imperceptible threats. 

 

Per rolls are subject to modifiers vs. Stealth, Concealment, range mods, etc. So is Danger Sense.

 

So what does Danger Sense give you (for a significant cost) that Perception Rolls don't?   

 

Want to notice that sniper taking aim at you? Perception roll... and/or Danger Sense... both do the same thing. 

 

How do you rule on differences between the two, or is Danger Sense only really worth it in very rare situations... which makes it not really worth the expenditure after all? 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

By reading of the rules in FRED, Danger Sense seems to be an additional perception roll to detect a danger.  It also (if you pay even more) can detect things your other senses can't.  It's also omnidirectional, an unusual sense so rarely subject to Flash, Images, or Invisibility, and has a GM's option for noticing things your other senses don't cover. 

The downside is that as you mentioned, it still has to make rolls to oppose Stealth et al. 

 

I personally don't think it's worth it in comparison to the utility of things like Spatial Awareness or Radar, but I've had really good results with Spatial Awareness so I'm biased. 

[Doc Democracy]

In play, I have ignored the realistic influences on Danger Sense and only applied things that might be more supra- (if not super-) natural.  That means it occupies a space that perception etc does not.  I tend not to allow it do more than give a vague sense of danger and the rough direction (with the corresponding information of which way it is safest to run).  

 

Doc

[RDU Neil]

3 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

By reading of the rules in FRED, Danger Sense seems to be an additional perception roll to detect a danger.  It also (if you pay even more) can detect things your other senses can't.  It's also omnidirectional, an unusual sense so rarely subject to Flash, Images, or Invisibility, and has a GM's option for noticing things your other senses don't cover. 

The downside is that as you mentioned, it still has to make rolls to oppose Stealth et al. 

 

I personally don't think it's worth it in comparison to the utility of things like Spatial Awareness or Radar, but I've had really good results with Spatial Awareness so I'm biased. 

 

Ok... so the point is that Danger Sense should be considered a "separate" Perception roll? Not in place of, but additional to. So a PC with DS basically gets two rolls to spot bad stuff?

[Duke Bushido]

I've always used it two ways:

 

If you flub a Per roll for a danger you could detect with your other senses, then check danger sense. 

 

If there is a very real danger that you have no realistic hope of detecting with your other senses, then check danger sense. 

[RDU Neil]

2 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

In play, I have ignored the realistic influences on Danger Sense and only applied things that might be more supra- (if not super-) natural.  That means it occupies a space that perception etc does not.  I tend not to allow it do more than give a vague sense of danger and the rough direction (with the corresponding information of which way it is safest to run).  

 

Doc

 

Yes... that fits my basic interpretation, in terms of what it tells you... intensity and rough direction... but as you point out, what does it provide that perception does not? Is it not impeded by barriers?  i.e. a perception roll doesn't work/has major penalties if the object is on the other side of a wall, or maybe several walls away... plus range mods for how far away. Does Danger Sense operate through barriers, kinda like "hearing"... I can sense a train bearing down on me from outside the house because of noises and vibrations getting louder, more violent, etc.? Range mods still apply, obviously, but that guy with rail gun lining up a shot via IR targeting through three concrete walls... my Per roll doesn't apply, but Danger Sense does? How is being on the other side of walls any different than Stealth or Concealment applying? 

I thought the point was that A normal PER roll would be nearly impossible to pick out the camoflaged, concealed position of the sniper just before they fire, but Danger Sense absolutely does (at least in the source material). Spider-man doesn't hear the ninja sneaking up on him, but {WAVY LINES WAVY LINE} and "Behind me!" and he dodges or whatever, because his Spidey-sense tingled. 

Detects in HERO make sense to created a "sense" of something that basic characters senses would not register... Detect Magic, etc... that aren't covered in the defined Enhanced Senses (like IR). The main question is "what is Danger Sense detecting that your normal senses don't?"   which begs the question, what is the point of Danger Sense "only if your senses could detect it"??

[RDU Neil]

Just now, Duke Bushido said:

I've always used it two ways:

 

If you flub a Per roll for a danger you could detect with your other senses, then check danger sense. 

 

If there is a very real danger that you have no realistic hope of detecting with your other senses, then check danger sense. 

 

So you always start with "Make a PER roll" and have DS kick in if they miss it? Do you change the modifiers for DS compared to the PER roll, or is it essentially, that the get a do-over of the same roll?

 

If you had no realistic hope, due to range mods and concealment, etc., how is Danger Sense (which is a PER roll modified by these things as well) supposed to help? It will be the same impossible roll, if the PER roll was.

[mallet]

Quote

As noted above, most forms of Danger Sense
only let a character perceive dangers he could
perceive given his other Senses. The benefits to
this type of Danger Sense are (a) it doesn’t belong
to any Sense Group, and therefore works even
when the character’s other Senses are “blinded,”
inoperative, or subject to PER Roll penalties; and
(b) the character can use his PER Roll as Complementary
to his Danger Sense roll. At the GM’s
option, Danger Sense might have a slight extrasensory
effect, so that it functions as a mild intuition
or “sixth sense” that alerts the character even when
he can’t perceive the source of the danger with
his normal senses (perhaps the character subconsciously
notices that something’s “wrong”).

 

[RDU Neil]

1 minute ago, mallet said:

 

 

 

Yes, it is this exact set of descriptions that has me scratching my head.

 

1 minute ago, mallet said:

(a) it doesn’t belong
to any Sense Group, and therefore works even
when the character’s other Senses are “blinded,”

 

This then, is directly counter to...
"+10 Character can perceive any type of danger, in or out of combat,
and regardless of whether he could perceive it with his standard
Senses"

 

So... unless your example is referring to "if they paid the extra points, then it works when others are blinded"... but then the question is back to what I said initially... what is the point of Danger Sense if it you pay 22 points (basic, functions as sense, out of combat) vs. Perception roll, which is free. The only real benefit coming in the rare instances of a character's other senses being "Flashed" which can happen, but is pretty rare.

 

6 minutes ago, mallet said:

or subject to PER Roll penalties; and

 

The book also says "Stealth typically applies to all Senses, including
Combat Sense and Danger Sense,"  Stealth (and Concealment) are simply ways of imposing PER penalties... so again, how is DS different than PER for the 22 point level? 

 

22 points for allowing your PER roll to potentially add to a DS roll that is still subject to all the normal PER penalties??

 

Otherwise 

12 minutes ago, mallet said:

At the GM’s
option, Danger Sense might have a slight extrasensory
effect,

 

So we are back to "If the GM allows it, it might do a little more" but again... that "intuition" is subject to range mods, Stealth mods, etc., so isn't actually any better than PER.

 

22 points being spent on +11 to Perception Roll seems like a MUCH better spend, and would actually make sense... since that would cover penalties that otherwise make it "imperceptible."

[Duke Bushido]

34 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

 

So you always start with "Make a PER roll" and have DS kick in if they miss it? Do you change the modifiers for DS compared to the PER roll, or is it essentially, that the get a do-over of the same roll?

 

Neither.  I am running an older version of the game; I use a pre-cobble version of Danger Sense that has the gall to have its own mechanic.  It has nothing to do with a perception roll. 

 

34 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

 

If you had no realistic hope, due to range mods and concealment, etc., how is Danger Sense (which is a PER

 

See above 

 

The push for uniformity is robbing the core of a lot of flavor. 

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

 

 

[RDU Neil]

A more clear example of confusion...

 

"Out Of Combat (+5 points): For +5 points, the
character who succeeds with a Danger Sense
roll will not be surprised while out of combat;
he perceives surprise attacks before they occur
(if they could be perceived, given his senses).
For example, a normal human with this type of
Danger Sense could see a sniper who was about
to shoot at him from the top of a building,"

 

So, this says, "If they could be perceived, given his senses"... but then uses a sniper example. So either characters WITHOUT Danger Sense should NOT be allowed to roll perception vs. that Sniper (which I think we all disagree with), or Danger Sense at this level is not giving you anything more than PER.

 

Also...

 

Immediate Vicinity (+5 points): For +5 points, a
character who succeeds with a Danger Sense roll is
forewarned of danger to anyone or anything in his
immediate vicinity (say, the room he’s standing in).
General Area (+5 points): For an additional +5
points, the character can detect any danger in his
general area (city).
Any Area (+5 points): For an additional +5 points,
the character can detect danger over any area. This
is subject to GM’s discretion; danger at the planetary
level is usually a good upper limit.
These forms of Danger Sense do not suffer
from the Range Modifier, nor do they require
Telescopic or MegaScale to work.

 

So this last statement implies that if you didn't take one of these increased area add-ons, then Range modifiers DO apply... again, making DS just another Perception Roll for 22 points. That just seems... wrong.

[Duke Bushido]

Here you go, Neil:

 

A successful Danger Sense roll gives the character a "feeling" of being in danger. He gets his full DCV if he reacts.  If he makes his roll by half or less, then the true position and nature of the danger known, and the character may act at full OCV. 

 

Danger Sense costs no Endurance to use. 

 

Cost 10 pts for base 11- roll; +1 to the roll for every +3 pts. 

 

 

No cobble, and it works so well you want to keep an eye on it  . (think BBB yield sign) 

 

 

Duke 

[RDU Neil]

10 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Here you go, Neil:

 

A successful Danger Sense roll gives the character a "feeling" of being in danger. He gets his full DCV if he reacts.  If he makes his roll by half or less, then the true position and nature of the danger known, and the character may act at full OCV. 

 

Danger Sense costs no Endurance to use. 

 

Cost 10 pts for base 11- roll; +1 to the roll for every +3 pts. 

 

 

No cobble, and it works so well you want to keep an eye on it  . (think BBB yield sign) 

 

 

Duke 

 

Yeah... I was thinking that a better Danger Sense would be "mechanically" simply a counter to the state of Surprised.  Something like...

 

5 Pts:   11-, +1 for 2, If a character would be Surprised in Combat, they may make a Danger Sense roll. If they make the roll, they are not Surprised and have no penalties against that attack. 

+5 Points, applies to Surprised Out of Combat as well. 

 

Done. 

It is a simple mechanical answer to the Surprise Attack penalties. SFX of your choice. Seems better costed. Any "source material" application of Danger Sense that allows more is bought as a Detect as per the rules... like the classic "Spider-man defusing a bomb by his spider-sense telling him which wires NOT to cut."

[Chris Goodwin]

I bag on 4e a lot, but 4e's version is pretty similar to 1-3e, with a few extra 5-point adders for expanding the area the character can detect danger over.  4e's cost is 10 for base, +1 per 2 points.

[Tom Cowan]

for the sniper, would you know the person was a sniper from a mile away? you could see the fact there is some one there, but is the person a danger?

[RDU Neil]

1 minute ago, Tom Cowan said:

for the sniper, would you know the person was a sniper from a mile away? you could see the fact there is some one there, but is the person a danger?

 

This is something I thought about.

 

Make PER roll. "Ok, you see a small dark lump with something sticking out."   or "You see a sniper" and then any interpretation of said sniper is up to the PC to make.

 

With Danger Sense Roll... "Ok... yo see a small dark lump with something sticking out/or your see a sniper and you instinctively know they are about to shoot you."

 

Now THAT interpretation has some merit... in that it is "Perception roll with a bit of understanding intent" thrown in.

 

Now... is that worth 22 pts base cost?   Hmmmm... 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I have the hardest time remembering people have danger sense and using it in time or properly, as a GM.

[mallet]

Re-reading Danger Sense (6th Ed.) I believe that the danger sense roll is not effected or modified by range, darkness, or any other modifiers that normally apply to PER rolls. You just make your roll at whatever you have it at (11-, 12-, or whatever). The only limit at the "base level" of it is that it is something that could be detected by your normal senses. A sniper could be seen with normal eye sight (even if this sniper is super far away on a building roof top) but an invisible, odorless gas wouldn't trigger danger sense (at base level) because the character couldn't see or smell it even if he/she was already engulfed by it. I think this because :

Quote

As noted above, most forms of Danger Sense
only let a character perceive dangers he could
perceive given his other Senses. The benefits to
this type of Danger Sense are (a) it doesn’t belong
to any Sense Group, and therefore works even
when the character’s other Senses are “blinded,”
inoperative, or subject to PER Roll penalties

 

 

That clearly states that PER Roll penalties or even darkness or blindness do not affect your Danger Sense roll. 

 

The stuff later about using Danger Sense at a range (to cover different sized areas) just include the "no range penalties" bit, to make it clear that they are not needed even when using the power to cover a greater range, it doesn't mean that lower levels of the power suffer range penalties. It is written in the most clearest terms, no. Is it still very expensive for what you get, well that is up to the player and GM to decide. It would depend on how often the GM uses Surprise attacks against his players. Only once every 6-7 sessions, then no, definitely not worth the cost. If they happen 2-3 times a session then yes, it is probably worth it. 

[Toxxus]

3 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

So... unless your example is referring to "if they paid the extra points, then it works when others are blinded"... but then the question is back to what I said initially... what is the point of Danger Sense if it you pay 22 points (basic, functions as sense, out of combat) vs. Perception roll, which is free. The only real benefit coming in the rare instances of a character's other senses being "Flashed" which can happen, but is pretty rare.

 

This is not the case.  There can be many situations in which your normal senses are simply incapable of detecting the danger you're in.

 

What if you're walking down the sidewalk and there is a bomb that was build into the pavement?  You can't see it or feel it with conventional senses, but danger sense might save you.

 

What if an enemy sniper is a mile away targeting your hero with the new 1.5 caliber Super Sniper 5000?  You can't see the sniper with such massive range penalties, but your danger sense should tip you off at the last instant as the bullet races towards you.

 

You're partially correct in that a lot of conventional dangers can be perceived with normal senses as well as Danger Sense.  But there could be many dangers that are simply impossible to detect without some sort of super-sense.

[Christopher]

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

No cobble, and it works so well you want to keep an eye on it  . (think BBB yield sign) 

Both in 6E1 and 5E Character Creation Handbook, Danger Sense actually has a STOP sign for it working potentially too good.

And funny enough, I read the title as "Danger Sense the GM should have against allowing Danger Sense".

 

 

@RDU Neil: I am uncertain if you were usign 5E, 6E or earlier. But in both 5E and 6E the Talent seems similar down to the letter. But that is mostly due to Senses seemingly not changing at all between 5E and 6E. I got no information on 4E and earlier, however.

 

52 minutes ago, mallet said:

Re-reading Danger Sense (6th Ed.) I believe that the danger sense roll is not effected or modified by range, darkness, or any other modifiers that normally apply to PER rolls. You just make your roll at whatever you have it at (11-, 12-, or whatever). The only limit at the "base level" of it is that it is something that could be detected by your normal senses. A sniper could be seen with normal eye sight (even if this sniper is super far away on a building roof top) but an invisible, odorless gas wouldn't trigger danger sense (at base level) because the character couldn't see or smell it even if he/she was already engulfed by it. I think this because :

Quote

 

As noted above, most forms of Danger Sense
only let a character perceive dangers he could
perceive given his other Senses. The benefits to
this type of Danger Sense are (a) it doesn’t belong
to any Sense Group, and therefore works even
when the character’s other Senses are “blinded,”
inoperative, or subject to PER Roll penalties

 

 

That clearly states that PER Roll penalties or even darkness or blindness do not affect your Danger Sense roll.  

 

6 minutes ago, Toxxus said:

 

This is not the case.  There can be many situations in which your normal senses are simply incapable of detecting the danger you're in.

  

What if you're walking down the sidewalk and there is a bomb that was build into the pavement?  You can't see it or feel it with conventional senses, but danger sense might save you. 

 

What if an enemy sniper is a mile away targeting your hero with the new 1.5 caliber Super Sniper 5000?  You can't see the sniper with such massive range penalties, but your danger sense should tip you off at the last instant as the bullet races towards you. 

Pretty much my interpretation as well.

 

It is a roll without most of the Penalties and being in the "Special" Sense Group, Sense Affecting powers targetting it are rare and pretty expensive.*

Normal Senses can be used as complimentary rolls. And Enhanced Senses does affect DS.

 

*Specifically "Invisibility (Danger Sense)" would cost either 10 base or +5 (cost of an Entire Non-Targetting Sense Group).

 

6 minutes ago, Toxxus said:

You're partially correct in that a lot of conventional dangers can be perceived with normal senses as well as Danger Sense.  But there could be many dangers that are simply impossible to detect without some sort of super-sense.

And in those cases the Senseroll would act Complimentary to the Danger Sense.

[Surrealone]

5 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

Ok... so the point is that Danger Sense should be considered a "separate" Perception roll? Not in place of, but additional to. So a PC with DS basically gets two rolls to spot bad stuff?

Straight out of RAW:

"A character with this Talent has a sixth sense about danger." (Source: 6e1 p111)

You need to GM that as you see fit, with the understanding that it relies on senses the character has unless purchased with the +10 CP option for "perceive any type of danger, in or out of combat, and regardless of whether he could perceive it with his standard senses" -- at which point, it effective DOES operate as a 6th sense.

 

Most GM's I've seen and/or played under tend to give a basic DS roll (using normal senses) whenever an attack is coming in for which a per roll would not normally be permitted.  An example might be the first shot fired by a sniper at the character.  (Normally someone would not get a PER roll against this … and would be surprised, but someone with DS would likely be given a roll and, if successful, would spot the glare off the sniper's scope or hear the bullet's movement through the air --- i.e. GM explanation as to how it was perceived would be based on the character's senses.)

 

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

Yeah... I was thinking that a better Danger Sense would be "mechanically" simply a counter to the state of Surprised.  Something like...

 

5 Pts:   11-, +1 for 2, If a character would be Surprised in Combat, they may make a Danger Sense roll. If they make the roll, they are not Surprised and have no penalties against that attack. 

+5 Points, applies to Surprised Out of Combat as well. 

 

Done. 

 

 

Well yes; that should work: it's the exact same mechanic with cheaper pricing.  Being as how it's the same, it should work the same.

 

And as Chris pointed out, there are adders in 4e to define specific Limitat-- I mean, ranges.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Toxxus said:

 

This is not the case.  There can be many situations in which your normal senses are simply incapable of detecting the danger you're in.

 

Precisely.  However, under anything 4 and up, if you don't buy the correct amount of range, you don't have Danger Sense.  Or, specifically, it simply doesn't work, no matter how much actual danger you are in right where you're standing.

 

1 hour ago, Toxxus said:

 

You're partially correct in that a lot of conventional dangers can be perceived with normal senses as well as Danger Sense.  But there could be many dangers that are simply impossible to detect without some sort of super-sense.

 

Precisely.  And as Neil pointed out, making a simple PER roll means "you register something;" it's going to take further inspection to realize just what it is you registered:

 

Hmmm..  Oh.  That sounded kind of like a cal-crikt, kind of like when you cock an automatic pistol.  Let me check that out.

 

Versus: "Crap!  Shooter in the catwalk!  Dive!"

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

Now... is that worth 22 pts base cost?   Hmmmm... 

 

 

It must be, because that's the new edition, which is mechanically perfect.

 

 

 

 

Duke

 

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

Yeah... I was thinking that a better Danger Sense would be "mechanically" simply a counter to the state of Surprised. 

 

 

Sorry; somehow I deleted that line a moment ago.  And yes; that's all it is.  The only "source material" I have a passing familiarity with is Spiderman, from the movies and a couple of the cartoons the kids watch, but from what I can tell of that particular source, that's really all it is.

 

But it's astounding how useful that can be in certain types of campaigns, so if you use it, keep your eyes open for abuse.

 

(using the 4e version can help curb some abuse because you have to buy a range element with the power.  1 & 2 (which I summed up above, and I don't know about 3e) do not require a range element: it simply says "you are in danger, right now!" and if you roll well enough, then you know exactly what danger and where it is.  You could be being targeted by a remote drone missile in a South American jungle: you _will_ know (if you roll good enough).

 

 

[Lucius]

52 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Precisely.  However, under anything 4 and up, if you don't buy the correct amount of range, you don't have Danger Sense.  Or, specifically, it simply doesn't work, no matter how much actual danger you are in right where you're standing.

 

I don't know about anyone else but I never interpreted the "Range" Adders in Danger Sense as meaning that you otherwise couldn't detect a danger from faraway. I always interpreted it as meaning you could detect danger to someone OTHER THAN YOURSELF within the defined area.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Sense, Any Area......

 

 

[Christopher]

34 minutes ago, Lucius said:

I don't know about anyone else but I never interpreted the "Range" Adders in Danger Sense as meaning that you otherwise couldn't detect a danger from faraway. I always interpreted it as meaning you could detect danger to someone OTHER THAN YOURSELF within the defined area. 

I think Victory is a example of this power. They even call it his "Danger Sense":

http://victoryadventures.webcomic.ws/comics/17#.XGtaELhCd3g