GMing Danger Sense

[Duke Bushido]

11 hours ago, Lucius said:

 I always interpreted it as meaning you could detect danger to someone OTHER THAN YOURSELF within the defined area. 

 

 

 

 

And you may be right.  I'd have to check.  But I seem to recall (and again, I could be way off; I haven't sat down and read 4e for a long time) that there was a separate adder or advantage for detecting danger to others. 

[Christopher]

11 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

And you may be right.  I'd have to check.  But I seem to recall (and again, I could be way off; I haven't sat down and read 4e for a long time) that there was a separate adder or advantage for detecting danger to others. 

The ability to detect dangers to others is required to detect the dangers to others on a larger scale.

[RDU Neil]

16 hours ago, Christopher said:

only let a character perceive dangers he could
perceive given his other Senses

 

or subject to PER Roll penalties

 

This is back to what I said before... the rules contradict. If something is "too far away" my senses can't perceive it, but Range mods are the only way "too far" is defined in the game... do they apply or not?

 

Also, vs. "Stealth typically applies to all senses, including Combat Sense and Danger Sense" Stealth is just a way to create PER Roll penalties... so do they apply or not?

 

 

IF your interpretation is correct it seems this could be amazingly clear if they wanted it to be.

 

"Danger Sense is a PER Roll but not subject to any normal PER Roll Penalties (like range, etc.) EXCEPT for those generated by opposing Stealth rolls. What Danger Sense perceives is a general sense of immediate threat and where it is coming from. A successful Danger Sense roll negates any "Surprised" penalties to DCV."

 

Done.

 

Except, this implies that the sense is actually detecting "intent to harm" as well as "imminent threat", as the guy with the sniper rifle hasn't actually pulled the trigger yet, so there is no imminent threat until he does. So, if a two-year old toddles up behind you desirous of biting your ankles, does Danger Sense work? The intent is there, but the capability of actual danger/harm is not.

 

Does it require BOTH intent to harm and imminent threat? Well then, that falling piano won't be detected, because there is no intent.

 

And without Range penalties, is my Danger Sense constantly going off if I'm a well known superhero and villains all over the world are constantly plotting my destruction? If a military drone operator is 9000 miles away and operating a bombing drone several miles above my head as she "plans" to pull the trigger and blow up the building I'm in... does Danger Sense go off? If so, when... as the pilot is starting to target the building, right before she pulls the trigger, once she has pulled the trigger, only after the missile has closed some distance?

[Christopher]

5 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

This is back to what I said before... the rules contradict. If something is "too far away" my senses can't perceive it, but Range mods are the only way "too far" is defined in the game... do they apply or not?

If the attacker is so far the Range Modifiers on Sight/Hearing/Other applicable sense make it unuseable, you get a Danger Sense roll with no modifiers.

If the dangers is not to far, you make a sense roll with the Modifiers. Wich acts as a complimentary roll to your dangers sense roll.

 

5 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

IF your interpretation is correct it seems this could be amazingly clear if they wanted it to be.

"Danger Sense is a PER Roll but not subject to any normal PER Roll Penalties (like range, etc.) EXCEPT for those generated by opposing Stealth rolls. What Danger Sense perceives is a general sense of immediate threat and where it is coming from. A successful Danger Sense roll negates any "Surprised" penalties to DCV."

Isn't there a saying about "Hindsight being 20/20"?

[RDU Neil]

2 hours ago, Christopher said:

If the attacker is so far the Range Modifiers on Sight/Hearing/Other applicable sense make it unuseable, you get a Danger Sense roll with no modifiers.

 

So... to the rest of my post, your statement here means you are ok with Danger Sense alerting you to a drone pilot on the other side of the planet? Or say, someone pressing a button on the other side of the planet and launching a missile... Danger Sense would have a flat roll, even at the most basic level?

 

Now let's complicate it. Isn't working in a secret room many miles away to launch an attack a form of Stealth. That character is doing things in such a way as to keep someone from noticing you... so does the Danger Sense roll have penalties now?

 

Even more... let's say the missile launcher dude is loud and boisterous and clumsy while he launches the attack from the other side of the planet... does that change things?

 

What if the boisterous missile launcher is launching a stealth missile that is practically silent and designed to be hard to see... what is the Danger Sense rolling against, the loud guy launching the missile, or the missile itself??? Is it the sniper or the bullet? What is the difference between the sniper and the hard partying missile launcher from the perspective of Danger Sense? When is the missile actually a danger? When it is about to be launched? At launch? Only when it has spent several minutes in the air and is closing on the target? Did the Danger Sense go off 18 minutes before the missile even crossed the horizon?

What about GodStarr! who is about to launch a hyper-relativistic weapon from the other side of the galaxy... but even so, it will take 36,000 years to reach earth at its present location and intercept the target with Danger Sense. In fact, the attack was launched before the target and civilization as we know it even existed on Earth, but GodStarr! is a god, so hey. When the target was born, was her Danger Sense already going off and keeps going off her entire life, because that attack was launched 35,967 years ago?

 

Time is essential for determining what constitutes a threat or danger.

 

Distance and time are the same thing. Distance is coded as Range modifiers in HERO, so if Range mods don't apply... time does not apply to Danger Sense.

 

Anyway... you see how quickly it spirals into absurdity if there are not some clear limits... and not story/game world limits... system mechanical limits. To me, this mechanical limit would have to be based around what segment/phase the attack would land. Danger Sense only applies against attacks launched or about to be launched that would impact that segment/phase. (I don't use the speed chart, so I have action rounds, but it would apply the same.)

 

e.g. Sniper will pull the trigger and bullet will strike all in the same action round, ok, you get the flash of danger insight just as/before the trigger is pulled because attack launch and land are basically simultaneous. Now, that boisterous missile launcher... Danger Sense didn't register when he flipped the switch, not until the missile was a couple city blocks out and 2-3 seconds from impact. THEN "Uh oh!"   If the sniper is far enough away and the attack must travel more than one action round before striking, Danger Sense won't go off until the bullet has already traveled.

 

That at least is a clear mechanical resolution (if not a metaphysical one) and yet...

 

This unfortunately would not allow for a very common example of Danger Sense:

Example: Michiko, a ninja assassin, has Danger

Sense (11-, out of combat) because she’s exceptionally

observant and almost never surprised.

While preoccupied with her meditation, she

fails to notice three samurai enter her garden.

However, as they approach her, she makes a

successful Danger Sense roll. Sensing danger, she

spins, pulling a knife from her boot scabbard and

denying her attackers a Surprise bonus.

 

This is right out of the book, but in this scene no attack has actually been launched, she is just aware that attackers have approached... and not only that, there is no disputing why the samurai are there... Danger Sense wouldn't have worked if they weren't a danger. Maybe these samurai were friends looking to play Settlers of Cataan or whatever. Nothing in the description indicates their intent except the fact that Danger Sense went off. (Such a use of Danger Sense wouldn't work with my ruling. It would have had to wait until a samurai drew his sword and started to swing for her to trigger.)

 

Really... the more I dig into Danger Sense, the more I realize the "Stop Sign" wasn't "Too powerful" but more a warning of the existential nightmare this Talent implies for the GM.

Danger Sense only really works if the rules are "Player should be asked to make Danger Sense roll whenever GM determines it is dramatically appropriate to the direction of game play to find out if the PC detected an incoming/potential threat. The results of the roll have the mechanical effect of removing surprise penalties if successful, and the narrative effect of giving the players dramatic license to act on the knowledge of threat/imminent attack on their characters."

 

Basically, Danger Sense only works if it is a solidly Nar rule, with a small layer of task resolution tied to it.

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

If you look at Danger Sense as being an Enhanced Sense and thus falling under Perception and so on and so forth... like Duke said, a cobble.  And all the extras and Adders and whatnot are leading us to this discussion.  

 

I'd just go back to basics.  What is the effect?   If you make the roll, you get the feeling of being in danger; if you react, you get full DCV against it.  If you make it by half or more, then you know the true nature and position of the danger and can act at full OCV.  Done.

 

I agree that the rest of the stuff opens up a can of worms and needs all the GM interpretation, and I agree that that seems to be why the warning symbol was added.  

 

[Scott Ruggels]

 Muatly, I would have a player roll Danger sense before a villain ambushes them, and if they made it, they got full DCV,

[Christopher]

47 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

So... to the rest of my post, your statement here means you are ok with Danger Sense alerting you to a drone pilot on the other side of the planet?

The Drone pilot can be about as far away a the General that ordered the Operation. Or the guy that hired the sniper trying to kill me. Either of those is pointless to consider and can be on the far side of the Universe for all the good it does me.

The attack comming from the Drone/Special Forces Team/Sniper right here is what maters.

 

47 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

Or say, someone pressing a button on the other side of the planet and launching a missile... Danger Sense would have a flat roll, even at the most basic level? 

Generlized Danger to area. Same way Animals can detect a comming earthquake.

Again the guy pushing the button does not mater. The missile hitting right here soon does.

And that one will not be solved with a OCV vs DCV contest anyway, so it hardly maters.

[Duke Bushido]

Okay, had  minute to check BBB.  It doesn't specify being able to use it on behalf of others, but given the assumption that at its base, it means "detect when you are in immediate danger,"  I would have to interpret the Adders "danger in your immediate vicinity," "danger in your general area," and "danger anywhere" to mean detecting danger to others in that area, as no matter how far away _you_ can sense danger_, you're only in danger because you are _right here_.  You know: where the sniper is aiming, or where the missile is going to land, or where your ex-wife's attorney is heading. 

 

Given the interpretation of detecting danger to others, that "detect danger anywhere" thing has got to cause a lot of sleepless nights.... 

[Lucius]

16 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Okay, had  minute to check BBB.  It doesn't specify being able to use it on behalf of others, but given the assumption that at its base, it means "detect when you are in immediate danger,"  I would have to interpret the Adders "danger in your immediate vicinity," "danger in your general area," and "danger anywhere" to mean detecting danger to others in that area, as no matter how far away _you_ can sense danger_, you're only in danger because you are _right here_.  You know: where the sniper is aiming, or where the missile is going to land, or where your ex-wife's attorney is heading. 

 

Given the interpretation of detecting danger to others, that "detect danger anywhere" thing has got to cause a lot of sleepless nights.... 

 

Danger is constant, but by the very fact of being constant, sort of fades into the background - like a buzz so constant you stop hearing it.

It becomes noticeable when the danger is physically close, or very large, i.e. if there are a large number of people in danger from a single cause.

Probably by concentrating on it a character could know where is the closest person in serious danger, or by concentrating on a specific individual know if they're safe.

They might also know if someone personally important to them is in danger...or at least have an uneasy feeling of SOMETHING WRONG even if they can't know their DNPC just got abducted by VIPER.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Of course that's just my opinion and even the palindromedary ignores my opinion sometimes.

 

[Duke Bushido]

Now that's an interesting take on it. 

 

Thanks! 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

I'd just go back to basics.  What is the effect?   If you make the roll, you get the feeling of being in danger; if you react, you get full DCV against it.  If you make it by half or more, then you know the true nature and position of the danger and can act at full OCV.  Done.

 

 

Yeah I think its important to go back to the source material here and what it was meant to simulate: it works like that.  Keep it basic and reasonable along those lines, and don't try to read too much into it, because its a game, a simulation of genre adventures.

[RDU Neil]

56 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah I think its important to go back to the source material here and what it was meant to simulate: it works like that.  Keep it basic and reasonable along those lines, and don't try to read too much into it, because its a game, a simulation of genre adventures.

 

Yes... this is what it WAS... but is no longer in 5th and 6th. Now it is a sense and sort of, but not really, follows the rules for senses.

 

Hence why I started this thread, as the new builds (from cost to described mechanical effect to vague narrative effect) are quite confusing and incoherent.

 

Edit: And to your point... the source material use Danger Sense as a narrative tool, narrative McGuffin in a way... so mechanizing it in HERO causes serious problems. The less it is defined the better, and that is counter to 5th/6th philosophy of deconstruction.

[Duke Bushido]

Neil:

 

Loved the post; would have quoted it but that's a pain on a touch screen. 

 

 

At any rate, I think the bulk of your answers (drone or pilot, 36000 years, etc) can be answered by studying, mechanically, what it is Danger Sense does:  as you noted, it's the last-line defense against being surprised. 

 

So the answer, I would think (and generally how I use it) is that it is responding to that thing that _will_ attempt to hurt you if you don't move _now_. 

 

When the missile gets launched, you've still got twenty minutes or so to go on about your business before it becomes a "now or never" situation. 

 

Of course, the raises questions of "danger payload" (at least, it has for me in the past) : no amount of "dive for cover" is getting you out of the blast radius of seven Megatron fuel/air bomb; I give a _rip_ what the maneuver says. 

 

There are guys on this board way more familiar with comic books than me, but when this question came up at my table, a couple of players pointed out different scenes in Spiderman's history were his danger sense went off either repeatedly or protractedly while he was trying to figure out what was the danger.  Turned out (according to the guys education me) that it was really, really big danger, and his more or less ignoring his danger sense (thinking something was wrong with him) nearly got him killed. 

 

Again: there are likely actual experts here who can tell me if I got played, but given that basis, the point at which something becomes an immediate danger is going to vary depending on just how big that danger is, and when it's "now or never" to get out of the way. 

[drunkonduty]

Interesting conversation.

 

It has made me go back and actually read the description of Danger Sense. I've never played a character with it nor GM'd a character with it, so it was worth a re-read of the rules.

 

A few things jump out at me.

 

As pointed out in the OP it's pretty vague about how it is supposed to work as a different sense from any other sense. And it is pretty expensive for what you do seem to get.

 

Also, you have to choose to use it unless you buy a specific adder to turn it into a sense. WTF? Seriously, think about that. How can it be useful if the character needs to suspect that there is danger first? If you suspect danger and are looking around, you've got your other senses working already. (Minor niggle: and buying the adder makes the base power worth 17 points. 17. It's just a bad number, going around being all primary and not ending in a 5 or a 0. Stop making my maths difficult.)

 

The last thing, and this one is more of a personal preference for play style, is that it doesn't belong to a defined Sense group. I hate that.

 

<mini rant follows>

A sense operates by responding to stimuli by a given vector (would that be the right word? I don't want to say "media" that doesn't feel right.) Therefore there must be a vector. Hero has generously given us, IIRC, 8 vectors. What it calls Sense Groups. That's 3 more than us real people get. (The Mystic group is pretty wide open too. A lot of crap can be defined as "mystic.") So I want all senses placed in a group.

<end of mini rant>

 

So Danger Sense would need to be placed in a group before I'd allow it in my game. (Yes, I've segued into what I would allow in my game, and how I'd build it. The implication of that last thought being that I won't be using the Danger Sense talent as written up in the rules.)

 

By placing it in a sense group (or groups, I'm quite happy for a super sense like this to be defined as being several sense groups being taken holistically) we can start to get an idea of what a given type of Danger Sense should look like. The two most likely groups are Mental and Mystical, but it shouldn't be limited to them.

 

A Mental Danger Sense might work by passively scanning thoughts for ones that have hostile intent either towards the character or to others in general. This version could be bought as something like:

 

Mental Awareness. Constant, Always On. Only to detect minds with hostile intent, blocked by any sort of Mental Defense. This would mean High EGO, not being known to the character with the power, or being in a big crowd, are good "passive" ways of defeating the power. To make it effective across a large area you need to buy skill levels in it. It's a bit of a kludge build though as Mental Awareness lets you detect specific minds, but not read them.

 

So Telepathy might be better.

 

Telepathy, surface thoughts only, only to detect hostile intent, 0End, AoE, Constant, Always On, Does Not Provide Mental Awareness. To get the version that allows the character to spot the specific danger get rid of "Does Not Provide Mental Awareness." This build has the benefit of giving a very defined area in which it works, who/what it'll work on, what will block it. Downside is that the GM has to start asking the player to make EGO rolls every time they have a surprise planned. Now most people I play with would be fine and not use the meta knowledge. But for some groups this can be a bone of contention.

 

Mystic Danger Sense might be "I sense a disturbance in the Force." Maybe only work on other "Force sensitives."

 

Daredevil would have a completely different Danger Sense. Which I might try to write up if a get a few minutes later.

 

So yeah, interesting conversation. Thanks to all for getting my brain juices going.

 

 

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

I will first confess that I've been a Ed with flu for going into my fourth day now, so I can't read too well (watery eyes) and I'm posting via phone. 

 

But you are proposing the notion that you will accept Danger Sense with Limitations, in some cases pretty sever ones:

 

The Danger Sense based on telepathy, for example, is useless against pitfalls or other death traps.  It might even be useless against a sniper (your discretion, of course) or smoldering sawdust about to ignite paint-thinner-soaked rags three floors below you and block any chance of escape. 

 

And on and on and on. 

 

and I can go two ways with the sense group idea (three, if I admit that it's valid-and yeah; I kinda do.  I mean, it's your game, right?) 

 

First: there is only one sense group, and that is touch. All senses are variations by being filter through specialized touch sensors. (at the end of the day, this is what's difficult with PD and ED: all energy is formed of some sort of measurable (and therfore touchable, and therfore physical) matter; there are just a lot of specialized forms of matter. 

 

(hey!  Digression!  I must be getting better!) 

 

The other way I can go with this is that from its inception, or, to restate: in 2/3 of the rules editions, Danger Sense had its own mechanic.  This would suggest to me that it belongs in the "Danger Sensing" Sense Group. 

 

Though I don't like to discuss sense groups too deeply.  At the end of the day, it just reminds me that ShapeShift still exists as a power.  Why don't we do like GURPS Supers and make whole new powers out of all the other popular special effects, too? 

 

 

Duke

[drunkonduty]

I see your point.

 

I should have been a bit more clear on a couple of points.

 

- the builds I suggested are just some of the ways in which I would accept a player simulating a Danger Sense power. Happy to have the players come up with others. The builds I have suggested are not meant to exactly duplicate the official version (something that would be difficult given how vague the official version is) they are meant to do something similar AND be better defined.

 

So yeah, my telepathy build can't possibly detect a pit trap. Prof X can feel the hostile thoughts of a potential assassin, but might step into an open manhole. That's cool. The build is not meant to detect all dangers. It doesn't sense danger. It senses hostile thoughts.

 

Daredevil would have a very different Danger Sense.

The player buys: Sense Danger, based on super sensitive senses, uses combined Hearing, Smell/Taste,  and Touch sense groups. He pays 5 points for the base power (Sense "Danger.") Maybe the player takes a limitation: "takes PER penalties from various sense groups" to simulate how being in a noisy, smelly place with lots of traffic can reduce its effectiveness. When in a dangerous situation he gets to make a PER roll and can apply his many, many PER modifiers to the check.

 

What is Daredevil (the character) actually doing? He's being aware of his surroundings. He hears the racing heartbeat of that person there, the smell of fear and worry on them, that gun metal smell seems to be coming from under their jacket. His super sensitive ears also pick up on the odd echoes of his own footfalls and he realises there's an open manhole cover in front of him. He nimbly walks around the manhole cover, heading toward the (potential) perp who has started reaching for their weapon. Just then, behind him, he realises that some oblivious bald guy, who seems to have a headache, is about to walk into the open manhole. What is DD to do?

 

Of course, now I've written all this I've come to the realisation that DD's Danger Sense is no different to just making a PER roll. So why bother to spend points on a separate damn power at all? Which I guess brings us back around to the OP: what the hell do you get when you buy Danger Sense? At least my telepathy version gives the player/character definite knowledge that the perp is planning to shoot someone (and who it is they're planning to shoot.)

 

As to my insisting on Sense Groups. Still gonna do it. Yes, at an abstract enough level it's all just teeny tiny particles bumping into one another. But at a higher level there's so many differences; different senses can be affected by different attacks/environmental factors. Not to mention the fact that I'm trying to build a workable game system, not define the TOE.

 

Get well soon mate.

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by drunkonduty
edited for spelling

[Christopher]

13 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Of course, the raises questions of "danger payload" (at least, it has for me in the past) : no amount of "dive for cover" is getting you out of the blast radius of seven Megatron fuel/air bomb; I give a _rip_ what the maneuver says. 

In general it is poor sportsmanship of a GM to make a scenario that boils down to:
You either have Danger Sense and make the roll.

or

Your character is dead without any way for you to change it.

 

If the "danger" is some form of Megascale Area of Effect attack (or anytthing you could not dodge with a Abort action), there should be a way to deal with it even if you are unaware. I mean we have developed missile warning Systems for a reason. Either danger sense does not apply (because everyone will be warned of it) or making the Danger Sense roll makes the following challenge easier (you happen to be close to a emergency shelter/not in the middle of a panicking crowd).

 

The attack from surprise is also rather unlikely to be a "instant kill" attack. By default at least, Hero is not that deadly. The character creation is way too complex for such a character turnover.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I wouldn't call what Daredevil has danger sense, not in the classic meaning of the word.  He's just got 360 targeting hearing, so he can pick up anything around him but won't necessarily.

[Sean Waters]

Danger Sense, Danger Sense, does whatever a Danger Sense can...it is all Spiderman's fault, you know.

 

I thought I would try and be clever and build Danger Sense as an Enhanced Sense, but immediately ran into problems.  

 

First of all, what is it that you are doing?  Is this actually a pre-cognition thing?  If so, one way of doing this is Clairsentience: 

 

Precognitive Clairsentience (Touch Group), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (70 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only to detect Injury or Distress; -1), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only the very immediate future (one phase); -1), Precognition/Retrocognition Only (-1), No Range (-1/2)

 

That actually works pretty well.  It only tells you if you are about to be hurt or otherwise distressed (like you have a sudden adrenaline surge).  You would effectively be in combat a phase before it actually happens so you would never be surprised.  It is always on, but I did not buy that as a limitation because I did not want it to be a problem.

 

I like that for a number of reasons:

 

1.  It is easy to administer.  If, in the next phase, you are going to be under fire, suddenly frightened or startled, the sense triggers.  Basically if you would know that you have been shot a phase from now, you can act on that knowledge.

2.  That makes the universe you are playing in non-deterministic, which I personally prefer.

3.  The cost works out perfectly.  Complete coincidence, but there you go.

 

What it won't detect is an attack that is going to affect you later, so, at least with this build, it won't tell you if you are drinking slow-acting poison, but you could tweak it so it did.  It will detect any situation in which you suddenly become very stressed, so probably also detects danger to those around you, or rather a dangerous situation you are about to enter.  Again you could tweak it to it just senses what affected you.  What will have affected you.

 

The other way is as a Detect.  I'm going to do that in a different post.  It may take some time.

[TranquiloUno]

17 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

 

 

Daredevil would have a very different Danger Sense.

The player buys: Sense Danger, based on super sensitive senses, uses combined Hearing, Smell/Taste,  and Touch sense groups. He pays 5 points for the base power (Sense "Danger.") Maybe the player takes a limitation: "takes PER penalties from various sense groups" to simulate how being in a noisy, smelly place with lots of traffic can reduce its effectiveness. When in a dangerous situation he gets to make a PER roll and can apply his many, many PER modifiers to the check.

 

What is Daredevil (the character) actually doing? He's being aware of his surroundings. He hears the racing heartbeat of that person there, the smell of fear and worry on them, that gun metal smell seems to be coming from under their jacket. His super sensitive ears also pick up on the odd echoes of his own footfalls and he realises there's an open manhole cover in front of him. He nimbly walks around the manhole cover, heading toward the (potential) perp who has started reaching for their weapon. Just then, behind him, he realises that some oblivious bald guy, who seems to have a headache, is about to walk into the open manhole. What is DD to do?

 

Of course, now I've written all this I've come to the realisation that DD's Danger Sense is no different to just making a PER roll. So why bother to spend points on a separate damn power at all? Which I guess brings us back around to the OP: what the hell do you get when you buy Danger Sense? At least my telepathy version gives the player/character definite knowledge that the perp is planning to shoot someone (and who it is they're planning to shoot.)

 

As to my insisting on Sense Groups. Still gonna do it. Yes, at an abstract enough level it's all just teeny tiny particles bumping into one another. But at a higher level there's so many differences; different senses can be affected by different attacks/environmental factors. Not to mention the fact that I'm trying to build a workable game system, not define the TOE.

 

Get well soon mate.

 

 

 

It's nit-picking but Daredevil is not, to my mind, the canonical example of Danger Sense. Spiderman is.

 

Daredevil has 360 Ranged Spatial Awareness and a huge Per bonus and a bunch of other souped up super senses, but "danger sense" is not really among them.

 

I mean...I think a player could argue they want to build him that way, but to me there wouldn't be a reason (IF and only IF we're trying to replicate the comic character) to do so.

I'd be more inclined to give him Per rolls to notice things and maybe even some Lightning Reflexes based on hearing the targets heartbeat increase just prior to attacking, but not Danger Sense.

 

DD replicates some common Danger Sense applications with insane Per and enhanced senses IMO.

 

He's hard to sneak up on because he's got radar sense. He's hard to surprise because he can hear ambushers heartbeats. He's hard to trick\trap\bomb because he can hear the oversized mechanical timer ticking down, or smell the nitro in the dynamite, or sense the slight depression in the floor over the pressure plate.

 

Plus practically I figure a DD clone is gonna spend so much on enhanced senses already charging him for Danger Sense too would be uncalled for.

 

[Sean Waters]

Right.  Detect version.  First of all, what are you detecting?  I know that seems like an odd question, but it is the difference between someone being about to point a gun at you and someone being about to pull the trigger.

 

That has consequences, outside combat.  If someone is threatening you and your danger sense does not go off then you can be confident that it is a hollow threat.  It is not all about the full DCV.

 

Are you detecting potential harm to yourself or are you detecting the danger in a situation or are you picking up on something else entirely?  Would your danger sense go off if something completely random happened i.e. something that could not have been predicted.  This stuff matters, if you are going to know how the power should be run.

 

Can you, should you, even, be able to sense what is going to happen, or is it about reading what is happening?

 

What, when it comes down to it, are you actually detecting?

 

Ultimately, whilst it still needs defining, it is either a 5 point or a 10 point Detect.  I'd say 5 points if it is danger you can detect with your senses normally and 10 points if it is a more ephemeral thing that you would not have been able to consciously pick up on/would not have been detectable with normal senses.

 

OK, right, you know what you are spending on the base Detect.  Next: do you need adders?  That is, are you building this as an unusual sense or is it going to be  a Simulated Sense thing?  OK, so now I'm thinking that what we need is a Simulated All Your Senses version.  You should be able to detect danger if you see sunlight glinting off a sniper scope but also if you suddenly smell almonds, or hear the safety being taken off a Glock...well, whatever sort of gun Glock makes.

 

There is no clear way to link a Detect to all of your senses.  The best you can do is make it an Unusual Sense and fluff it from there.

 

So.  Adders.

 

You are going to need Sense for 2 points or you can only Detect Danger you are specifically looking for.

 

Then, right, there is range, specifically, do we need it?  Where is the danger?  Is it over there with the sniper pointing a gun at you or is it over here where the bullet is going to end up?  I can see arguments for either but, you probably need range. 

 

So.  12 or 17 points, depending on whether you use your normal senses to pick up danger or it is a sixth sense that still works if you are blind, deaf, insensitive and asnomic.  You almost certainly need Increased Arc of Perception too, which is 5 points for 360 degrees or 2 points for 240 degrees.

 

So, probably you need 17 or 22 points to build Danger Sense from scratch, but at least you know what you are getting.

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK Let's strip it down.  If we were going to build Spider-Man's Danger Sense from scratch, using Hero (without the danger sense power) what would it be?

 

Its DCV, I mean he's dodging stuff he should be half DCV against as if he is full, so that's no problem to build.

Its awareness, he's able to spot things he isn't immediately aware of like a sniper or someone sneaking up behind him. so like 360 sense of some sort.

 

But there's another aspect that's tougher to quantify: it allows him to be combat-ready regardless of the situation.  And how do you simulate that in the rules?  That's what Danger Sense does: it puts you combat ready when others would not be, and lets you intelligently react to the source of danger.  So the other things Spider-Man does with it (dodge, etc) are other powers in action.

 

So that's all it should need to be broken down into; I can react to danger properly despite its origin or location. 

 

Personally I don't think there should be a roll for Danger Sense.  how often has it failed Spider-Man the ur-example for the power?  Ever?  Sure, sometimes the attack is so fast or big he can't get out of the way, but unless his powers are negated its NEVER not worked.  Spidey has never blown a roll and gotten shot from behind.  It always works, every time, without exception.  He doesn't always get to take advantage of it: I have to choose between dodging Scorpion's tail strike or saving Aunt May!  But it always works.   Spider-Man doesn't just have a great roll, he never rolls 18.  Its impossible to fail.

[Sean Waters]

41 minutes ago, TranquiloUno said:

It's nit-picking but Daredevil is not, to my mind, the canonical example of Danger Sense. Spiderman is.

 

 

...and therein lies the problem with trying to build something that emulates something you see in the comics.  Every different writer will have a slightly different take and on one will bother to explain how it is actually supposed to work.  Is Spiderman detecting Dangeron Particles?  Hmm?  Only there ain't no such thing.

 

If you are going to build it in Hero then you need to have a clear idea of what you want it to do, and build that.  It might end up working much like Spider Sense, but you will know the mechanics of it.  Spiderman's DS seems to be more of a pre-cognitive ability.  Maybe.  Sometimes.

 

The other point worthy of note is that no one else but Spiderman really has Danger Sense.  I mean, lots of characters can sense danger, but that is pretty much always because of enhanced senses or experience in dangerous situations or, you know, magic.  He's not just the canonical example of Danger Sense, he is pretty much the only one.

 

And another thing...how often do you ambush the PCs and have them start at 1/2 DCV?  Me, not so much.  Maybe the only time I would do it is if a character had Danager Sense so they got their full DCV and utility from the points, which makes being in a team with a character with Danger Sense pretty dangerous.

 

DS ought to be an example build in Enhanced Senses, not a separate Talent.  Targeting if you roll under half?  What?

[Sean Waters]

9 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

OK Let's strip it down.  If we were going to build Spider-Man's Danger Sense from scratch, using Hero (without the danger sense power) what would it be?

 

That is a very Hero question.  What it does, in effect, is put you In Combat when you would not otherwise be. 

 

Effect 1: Full DCV even if Surprised.  You could actually build that as Penalty Skill Levels against the Surprised Condition.  Surprised is 1/2 DCV, so even if you had 10DCV, it would only cost you 10 points (2 points a level x5) to avoid the penalty for being surprised.  I'd probably allow that against Surprised Manouevres too.

 

Effect 2: You can react even if out of combat, so you can abort to an action.  Hmm.  That is harder.  You either are in combat or you are not.  If you are, you can take combat actions, if you are not then you can not.  There is nothing I can think of that does this other than a Sense of some sort, which allows you to detect when you need to enter combat.  That or EDM to travel back into the past a few seconds after you get into danger so you can do something different.  Hmm...no.  Unless your GM allows you to build combat manouevres with Triggers, this one is hard.

 

Effect 3: You can launch a full OCV attack if you make a lucky roll.  This is a silly Gimme IMO: you either detect you need to be in Combat, so you are, and you can launch attacks, or you don't so you can't.  Again, though, a Triggered attack might do the trick here.

 

I'm not sure it is worth the cost of Triggered powers.  I might use the PSLs though.