GMing Danger Sense

[mallet]

56 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

 

The other point worthy of note is that no one else but Spiderman really has Danger Sense.  I mean, lots of characters can sense danger, but that is pretty much always because of enhanced senses or experience in dangerous situations or, you know, magic.  He's not just the canonical example of Danger Sense, he is pretty much the only one.

 

 

I would disagree with that statement. Sure, Spiderman is the only one that has it "defined" as Danger Sense and a physical reaction (hairs on his arm/neck stand up, those "Waves" around his head to locate and let the reader know he is using that power, etc...) but tons of other could characters have it, maybe just not at the power level, always works, level that Spidy has. Just because they are "Weaker" at it doesn't mean they wouldn't have the ability on their "Character sheet". 

 

For example, how many times has The Punisher been about to open a door, then at the last moment realized it was a trap so he dives out of the way as bullets rip through the door? Or the same with Wolverine or numerous other characters. It doesn't mean that these characters don't get surprised at times (meta reason: because they "failed" their roll) just that sometime their Danger Sense works for them. 

 

Or like Indiana Jones going through the temple and suddenly grabbing one of his team members and stopping them from triggering a trap, then pointing out to them to watch where they step or stay out of the sunlight. That could all be examples of Danger Sense, because there are other times he walks though sunlight without stopping or across floors without checking to see if their are traps. He just "knows" when there is danger. 

 

All of those are possible examples of a Danger Sense ability in action. 

[drunkonduty]

2 hours ago, TranquiloUno said:

 

It's nit-picking but Daredevil is not, to my mind, the canonical example of Danger Sense. Spiderman is.

 

Daredevil has 360 Ranged Spatial Awareness and a huge Per bonus and a bunch of other souped up super senses, but "danger sense" is not really among them.

 

I mean...I think a player could argue they want to build him that way, but to me there wouldn't be a reason (IF and only IF we're trying to replicate the comic character) to do so.

I'd be more inclined to give him Per rolls to notice things and maybe even some Lightning Reflexes based on hearing the targets heartbeat increase just prior to attacking, but not Danger Sense.

 

DD replicates some common Danger Sense applications with insane Per and enhanced senses IMO.

 

He's hard to sneak up on because he's got radar sense. He's hard to surprise because he can hear ambushers heartbeats. He's hard to trick\trap\bomb because he can hear the oversized mechanical timer ticking down, or smell the nitro in the dynamite, or sense the slight depression in the floor over the pressure plate.

 

Plus practically I figure a DD clone is gonna spend so much on enhanced senses already charging him for Danger Sense too would be uncalled for.

 

 

Nitpick acknowledged. ?

 

True. Daredevil does not have something defined as Danger Sense in the comics. But I figured his power set was a good way to come at Danger Sense.

 

When I started that DD version of Danger Sense I was trying to find different ways of building Danger Sense that were better defined than the official one. It was after doing it I realised that there really is no line between Danger Sense and just Sense. Hell, it's in the name: Danger SENSE.

 

This once again brings us around to the OP: Where is the line between danger sense and just a regular (for a  given value of regular in a super hero universe) sense?

 

I'm not seeing that there is one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Christopher]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I wouldn't call what Daredevil has danger sense, not in the classic meaning of the word.  He's just got 360 targeting hearing, so he can pick up anything around him but won't necessarily.

I agree that Daredevil is a case of shifting the targetting sense. Note that some interpretations go one further and actually move it into the Radio or even Special Group. Just because hearing is still to - flashable? - in a normal setting.

The rule to buy back sight (in order to afford a alternative targetting sense easier) pretty much was added to 6E for Daredevil builds. Or at least that is how I read it.

 

 

The only examples for Danger Sense I can think of are:
Spiderman. Wich has seen some pretty big abuses of the power by writers.

Like in "The Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes S02E22 New Avengers". He had to disarm a time machine and lacked any skill to do it. Tampering the wrong way could have caused the whole thing to explode. Writer solution? If he planned on pulling something that that triggerd his spider sense. So the Spidersense was used to offset lack of any skill in this instance. Of course allowing players to use it like that is a huge issue.

 

The Victory Webcomic that I linked above. It also has a rare example of city/planet wide danger sense. And seems to have way less abuses by the writer, because there is only one and he had planned that ability from the get go.

[Sean Waters]

1 hour ago, mallet said:

 

I would disagree with that statement. Sure, Spiderman is the only one that has it "defined" as Danger Sense and a physical reaction (hairs on his arm/neck stand up, those "Waves" around his head to locate and let the reader know he is using that power, etc...) but tons of other could characters have it, maybe just not at the power level, always works, level that Spidy has. Just because they are "Weaker" at it doesn't mean they wouldn't have the ability on their "Character sheet". 

 

For example, how many times has The Punisher been about to open a door, then at the last moment realized it was a trap so he dives out of the way as bullets rip through the door? Or the same with Wolverine or numerous other characters. It doesn't mean that these characters don't get surprised at times (meta reason: because they "failed" their roll) just that sometime their Danger Sense works for them. 

 

Or like Indiana Jones going through the temple and suddenly grabbing one of his team members and stopping them from triggering a trap, then pointing out to them to watch where they step or stay out of the sunlight. That could all be examples of Danger Sense, because there are other times he walks though sunlight without stopping or across floors without checking to see if their are traps. He just "knows" when there is danger. 

 

All of those are possible examples of a Danger Sense ability in action. 

 

I acknowledge the point, but to me that is more 'Danger Recognition' - it is not a sense (as Hero defines it) beyond the normal senses that the character has filtered through their experience (as defined by their Skills).  It is the equivalent of the old DnD "I listen at the door" - if you hear something unusual or unexpected you take more precautions.  If it was not for Spiderman we would just be using Perception Rolls and not thinking twice about it.

[Sean Waters]

14 minutes ago, drunkonduty said:

This once again brings us around to the OP: Where is the line between danger sense and just a regular (for a  given value of regular in a super hero universe) sense?

 

Danger Sense can work even if the danger would not be detectable by the character's normal senses and at anything up to planetary area.  It is effectively N-Ray and without range modifiers.  You COULD buy other senses that did that, but good luck picking the bones out of that soup; and you don't have to, because Danger Sense.

 

Mind you if a PC came to me with a build that included a planetary level out of combat Danger Sense they would never be seen or heard from again, and quite rightly too.  Well, that or it would just be me bombarding them with constant reports about Avi in Mumbai who is about to cross the road and so is in grave danger, and Kevin in Adelaide who is, well, in Australia and so is in grave danger.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

To the best of my understanding, danger sense only applies to the character and those nearby.

[Sean Waters]

+10 Character can perceive dangers to anyone in his general area (such as the city he’s in)

+15 Character can perceive dangers to anyone in any area (see text) 

 

The text says that 'planetary' is a good upper limit.

[drunkonduty]

4 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

 

Danger Sense can work even if the danger would not be detectable by the character's normal senses and at anything up to planetary area.  It is effectively N-Ray and without range modifiers.  You COULD buy other senses that did that, but good luck picking the bones out of that soup; and you don't have to, because Danger Sense.

 

Mind you if a PC came to me with a build that included a planetary level out of combat Danger Sense they would never be seen or heard from again, and quite rightly too.  Well, that or it would just be me bombarding them with constant reports about Avi in Mumbai who is about to cross the road and so is in grave danger, and Kevin in Adelaide who is, well, in Australia and so is in grave danger.

 

 

 

Good points.

 

The phrase "not detectable by the character's normal senses" is the one that stands out to me. So even if you haven't bought DD's super senses you can still get a check for that assassin in the crowd. Also you can also simulate DD's enhanced senses for combat purposes (having full OCV and DCV) even in a darkened room. You need adders to be able to apply it to ranged combat.

 

I guess, as has been pointed out on these boards before, that Talents are just specific instances of power builds. The trouble with DS is it doesn't do it very well. It's pretty darn vague. As a GM I'd be happier with someone buying enhanced senses of some sort.

 

As an aside: I have crossed the road in Mumbai. It's scared the crap outta me. Adelaide isn't dangerous; it might bore you to death but other than that you're fine.

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

23 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

Mind you if a PC came to me with a build that included a planetary level out of combat Danger Sense they would never be seen or heard from again, and quite rightly too.  Well, that or it would just be me bombarding them with constant reports about Avi in Mumbai who is about to cross the road and so is in grave danger, and Kevin in Adelaide who is, well, in Australia and so is in grave danger.

The PARANOIA GM in my says that sounds like the most wonderful mistake a player could put on their character sheet. 

I'd warn them that it's a lot of information and most of it won't be helpful.  I'd tell them that they mostly tune it out, but they should give me a list of people they pay attention to danger to and other circumstances like sudden "danger clusters" that will make them pay attention so I can know what to tell them about. 

Then start handing them sticky notes with dangers on them.  During downtime, their DNPC is about to drop their phone on their toe.  During a fight with Doctor Defenestration, Doctor Defenestration is about to throw their buddy out a window.  As they run after Baron Barren's smog-o-car, their Contact is about to burn their tongue on hot coffee.  As they're tracking down the mafia, a bus two blocks over is about to crash.  As they're fighting their way out of the sub-subterranean mazes of the sub-molemen, their Contact is about to get in a fistfight with a drunk.  As they're responding to the scene of a bank robbery in progress, their DNPC is about to be kidnapped by Doctor Defenestration and this is the thing they wanted to know.  So if they're willing to slog through the tiring humdrum of reading every expletive sticky note, they'll be able to intercept Doctor Defenestration.  When If they tune it out, then I get to be a smug bodypart and point out that the sticky note said exactly what was happening why didn't you read it?  Doesn't your hero care, citizen?  Doesn't he want everyclone to be happy?  You answered yes?  Explain why you think they're not happy, and enumerate any other failings in Alpha Complex you believe Friend Computer has failed to correct. 

And if they're perversely clever enough to tune their Danger Sense to their enemies, then they deserve a reward for their cleverness.  And to wander into a six-supervillain free-for-all once they're complacent about their "perfect plan".  But hey, noclone's perfect.  If they were, they'd be me Friend Computer of course! 

 

The rest of me says they've just handed me the holy mother of plot hooks because I can encourage the party to go anywhere at the drop of a hat with no explanation needed beyond "IGUANA SENSE TINGLING HAWAII HAWAII!"

[Sean Waters]

15 minutes ago, drunkonduty said:

Adelaide isn't dangerous; it might bore you to death but other than that you're fine.

 

Everyone thinks that until something bites you.

 

I'm with you about standard enhanced senses.

 

11 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

The PARANOIA GM in my says that sounds like the most wonderful mistake a player could put on their character sheet. 

 

Ah, Paranoia <sigh>

[Christopher]

On 2/22/2019 at 12:26 AM, Sean Waters said:

Mind you if a PC came to me with a build that included a planetary level out of combat Danger Sense they would never be seen or heard from again, and quite rightly too.  Well, that or it would just be me bombarding them with constant reports about Avi in Mumbai who is about to cross the road and so is in grave danger, and Kevin in Adelaide who is, well, in Australia and so is in grave danger. 

 

On 2/22/2019 at 1:11 AM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I'd warn them that it's a lot of information and most of it won't be helpful.  I'd tell them that they mostly tune it out, but they should give me a list of people they pay attention to danger to and other circumstances like sudden "danger clusters" that will make them pay attention so I can know what to tell them about.  

As a general rule, Hero Powers (including Talents) do not have downsides other then written in the text, even if they are logically founded. Unless you take an actuall limitations of c ourse.

With Megascale running you do not kill yourself by running into Mosquitoes.

Nor does your speed explode the Atmosphere.

Filtering is thus implied, as with your normal sight and hearing.

 

Not accidentally filtering ou the real dangers is what the Sense Roll is there for.

[Toxxus]

On 2/21/2019 at 5:37 PM, Sean Waters said:

+10 Character can perceive dangers to anyone in his general area (such as the city he’s in)

+15 Character can perceive dangers to anyone in any area (see text) 

 

The text says that 'planetary' is a good upper limit.

 

That seems like a way to go bat !@#$ crazy almost immediately.  Over 150,000 people die each day.  Now add in all the people in non-lethal danger and that sense would be going off every single phase until the Hero lost his mind or it went numb.

[Lucius]

1 hour ago, Toxxus said:

 

That seems like a way to go bat !@#$ crazy almost immediately.  Over 150,000 people die each day.  Now add in all the people in non-lethal danger and that sense would be going off every single phase until the Hero lost his mind or it went numb.

 

On 2/19/2019 at 6:05 PM, Lucius said:

 

Danger is constant, but by the very fact of being constant, sort of fades into the background - like a buzz so constant you stop hearing it.

It becomes noticeable when the danger is physically close, or very large, i.e. if there are a large number of people in danger from a single cause.

Probably by concentrating on it a character could know where is the closest person in serious danger, or by concentrating on a specific individual know if they're safe.

They might also know if someone personally important to them is in danger...or at least have an uneasy feeling of SOMETHING WRONG even if they can't know their DNPC just got abducted by VIPER.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has a feeling of deja vu

[Tech]

 For planetary Danger Sense, you are paying points to get an effect that boosts the power of a useful sense for the character. It has a STOP on it for a reason. If a player wanted to buy it but you don't want them to have it, give them reasons why you don't think it fits in with your campaign. For myself, I would allow it as a GM and it gives me all sorts of wonderful reasons to throw adventures out for the players. I'd use it, not kick the character to the curb just because a player wants to try it. It sounds much like the old Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) once he acquired Cosmic Awareness.

[Duke Bushido]

42 minutes ago, Lucius said:

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has a feeling of deja vu

He's not alone. 

 

 

 

 

 

Duke 

[drunkonduty]

On 2/22/2019 at 10:10 AM, Christopher said:

Spiderman. Wich has seen some pretty big abuses of the power by writers.

Like in "The Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes S02E22 New Avengers". He had to disarm a time machine and lacked any skill to do it. Tampering the wrong way could have caused the whole thing to explode. Writer solution? If he planned on pulling something that that triggerd his spider sense. So the Spidersense was used to offset lack of any skill in this instance. Of course allowing players to use it like that is a huge issue.

 

 

I agree that using Danger Sense in that way is a huge issue. Unfortunately, it's allowed by the (very vague and general) write up of the talent.

 

There are no caveats about who or what is causing the danger or types of danger caused. It has no sense group so you can't even argue from analogy. (Yes, I'm harping on about sense groups again.)

 

There is danger. Spidey is made aware of it and can react in time to avoid the danger.

 

If you wanted to be very "by the book" you could just say that Spidey has his Full OCV and DCV as the huge time bomb goes KA-BLEWEY. I don't think that would go down well with most players.

 

 

[Christopher]

14 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

I agree that using Danger Sense in that way is a huge issue. Unfortunately, it's allowed by the (very vague and general) write up of the talent. 

You do not get to simulate existing game constructs with other powers.

Killing Attack already exists. So you do not get to simulate it using "Transform: To Dead Person".

"Disarm: Time Machine" as a Skill exists (or a corresponding equivalent). So you do not get to simulate it with Danger Sense.

 

Of course in that scenario the GM (Author) somewhat ignored it, because he just wanted the time machine turned off somehow.

It was a one of adventure in the same setting, but with different Characters. Characters that would not be re-used anytime soon.

So he decided to "let 5 be a even number".

 

17 hours ago, Toxxus said:

That seems like a way to go bat !@#$ crazy almost immediately.  Over 150,000 people die each day.  Now add in all the people in non-lethal danger and that sense would be going off every single phase until the Hero lost his mind or it went numb. 

The raw perception of your Eyes, Nose, Tongue, Ears and Skin are already filtered and interpreted 24/7.

We do perception Checks so we do not miss something important.

I have issues with my Interpreter breaking down/needing adjustment every time I put on 3D glasses in front of my normal glasses. Or when I put on new/repaired glasses.

 

The exact same thing happens with Danger Sense. You got an interpreter running, that filters out the irelevant stuff.

 

Plus even if you do have that information, do you actually have the ability to act on it? You need enough movement to actually do it.

[dsatow]

Some examples of danger sense in media

 

Lots of Kung Fu/Wu Shu movies have martial artists sense danger and react before it happens.

 

Doctor Strange used to have the ability to denote world class dangers.  Something like global impending doom due to Dormammu.

 

Dreamer(Legion of Superheroes) had precognition which could be partly defined as Danger Sense.  She would remember to avoid things due to her dreams.

 

Wolverine seems to have danger sense and would constantly sniff out problems before hand.

[Christopher]

13 hours ago, dsatow said:

Wolverine seems to have danger sense and would constantly sniff out problems before hand.

The question is: Was it him literally sniffing propblems out, or figuratively sniffing problems out?

 

He has enhanced senses in his powerset. And his enhanced senses might just be something a enemy normally does not expect (so he does not use stealth against them).

[Christopher R Taylor]

The "something's not right" effect comes up a ton in action adventure stories, whether its some subconscious clue, instinct, or whatever.  That qualifies as low end danger sense and while I've tried to avoid it in my writing its really common.

 

What doesn't come up anywhere is the "I sense danger to everyone on the planet" thing, which is simply ridiculous.  Putting aside the effects on the psyche people have brought up here (there have been times in the past when Spidey's danger sense is so powerful its crippling to him) what possible use would it be??

[Duke Bushido]

I think global (or even long-distance) is to represent that "Lois is in trouble!" gut sensation more than anything else, but it's not like the rules aren't open to interpretation. 

[drunkonduty]

On 2/27/2019 at 9:37 AM, Christopher said:

You do not get to simulate existing game constructs with other powers.

Killing Attack already exists. So you do not get to simulate it using "Transform: To Dead Person".

"Disarm: Time Machine" as a Skill exists (or a corresponding equivalent). So you do not get to simulate it with Danger Sense.

 

 

Yeah  look, "can't simulate existing game constructs with other powers" is all well and good. But aren't all the powers existing game constructs? In which case what is simulating what?  Seriously, which one is "simulating" which one: Transform to Dead Person or Killing Attack vs. Power Defense? Do we need to know which one comes first? Is there some sort of list that prioritises them?

 

Not that I'm aware of.

 

The problem with danger sense is not that it crosses a line into simulating other powers, it's that it doesn't simulate other powers in a clear enough way, thereby leading to arguments during a game. Me, I don't want that at my game table. I already have enough trouble wrangling (some) players into playing within a set of assumptions in which I am happy to run a game. I don't need this s#!t too.

 

As an aside: not allowing players  to use their super powers to do something improbable but thematically fitting is probably a bad GMing style, especially for the supers genre.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

You could use danger sense for a simple disarm the bomb scenario (once) if its a choice between two options: this one is danger, that one is not.  I'm fine with that kind of creativity but don't push it because the next bomb will have lots of options that will waste your time and you won't get the thing disarmed before it goes off unless you know what you're doing.

[dsatow]

I ought to note, I also thought of putting in the Jedi -- "There is a disturbance in the force." quotes.

[TranquiloUno]

On 2/21/2019 at 1:04 PM, Sean Waters said:

 

...and therein lies the problem with trying to build something that emulates something you see in the comics.  Every different writer will have a slightly different take and on one will bother to explain how it is actually supposed to work.  Is Spiderman detecting Dangeron Particles?  Hmm?  Only there ain't no such thing.

 

If you are going to build it in Hero then you need to have a clear idea of what you want it to do, and build that.  It might end up working much like Spider Sense, but you will know the mechanics of it.  Spiderman's DS seems to be more of a pre-cognitive ability.  Maybe.  Sometimes.

 

The other point worthy of note is that no one else but Spiderman really has Danger Sense.  I mean, lots of characters can sense danger, but that is pretty much always because of enhanced senses or experience in dangerous situations or, you know, magic.  He's not just the canonical example of Danger Sense, he is pretty much the only one.

 

And another thing...how often do you ambush the PCs and have them start at 1/2 DCV?  Me, not so much.  Maybe the only time I would do it is if a character had Danager Sense so they got their full DCV and utility from the points, which makes being in a team with a character with Danger Sense pretty dangerous.

 

DS ought to be an example build in Enhanced Senses, not a separate Talent.  Targeting if you roll under half?  What?

 

You could even do it easy. +X to Per rolls only to detect threats or similar. Enough of a bonus to give them a typical DS range roll to detect stuff even tho the penalty to the Per roll would normally make it impossible.

 

So Wolvie\Punisher might have Per 12-, +6 only to detect danger\threats. So if a sniper two miles away is a -8 Per check they'd still have decent odds to spot him.

 

Someone has already suggested that in the thread I'm sure. But it seems to get around a few of the issues with some implementations.