Building an All or Nothing Killing Curse

[Killer Shrike]

3 hours ago, Christopher said:

I am pretty sure we were still discussing the applicability of the "-2 All Or Nothing" Limitation from that 4E supplement someone had brought up.

And how applicatble such a high limitation is, if the attack is so strong it will kill most characters.

 

Well, except he wasn't. This is the tangent that was started:

 

Quote

I am _not_ looking to derail an interesting thread, but it bears mentioning that the book value for limitations is not particularly helpful without a published game world that includes some guidelines, limits, averages, etc. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Christopher said:

As well as the general idea of having to tweak the values of Limitations, based on the total situation (specific Game Setting, Power of the attack, Defense of the targets, supporting abilities, possible allies).

 

Are you suggesting that in the same setting you'd rate a Limitation at one value for say a 6D6 Blast and at a different value for say a 12D6 Blast "based upon total situation....Power of the attack"??

 

Or that if a character were to take a power with a lim at a specific value and then later a new character joined the team, allying with them, you'd potentially change the Lim value on the first character "based upon total situation....possible allies"??

 

3 hours ago, Christopher said:

The text for the generic "Limited Power" Limitation explicitly mentions it:
"For example, suppose a character wants to build a Blast that only works in an intense magnetic field. In a Science Fiction campaign, intense magnetic fields exist in many places where PCs go (meaning the Limitation is only worth about -¼). On the other hand, a WWII “Golden Age” superhero would almost never encounter an intense magnetic field (so the Limitation’s more like a -2).

To repeat: a Limitation that doesn’t limit a power provides no bonus! [...] Similarly, if a character took the Limitation Only Works In Intense Magnetic Fields on his Blast, and another PC just happens to generate intense magnetic fields as a special effect, he gets no bonus (or a very small one, if they don’t work together all the time)."

 

That is what LIMITED POWER says, which is also in line with what I said. However, the comment made by Duke was not re: Limited Power it was a blanket statement covering "the book value for limitations". 

 

 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

9 minutes ago, Killer Shrike said:

 

 

 

I feel this way about soooo many of the rules discussions.

[Killer Shrike]

If you took away the posts where most of the effort was spent debating over trivialities, semantics, distinctions without a difference, and arguments for no purpose other than serving as an opportunity to express thinly veiled dislike between specific posters or to compare e-peens...there wouldn't be much left. The same holds true for the internet in general.

 

A lot of it is pedantic and pointless, but some of it hones precision, clarifies consensus, develops new insights, and occasionally even entertains. It shapes the primordial soup of the zeitgeist, and influences the thoughts of those driving future growth or contributing to future failure.

 

And of course, sometimes, it's just people arguing about whether the cookie stand can technically be categorized as being part of the food court...(clearly, it cannot).

 

[Scott Ruggels]

8 minutes ago, Killer Shrike said:

 

And of course, sometimes, it's just people arguing about whether the cookie stand can technically be categorized as being part of the food court...(clearly, it cannot).

 

Same for Wetzel's Pretzels. Not food court.

[Killer Shrike]

Just now, Scott Ruggels said:

 

Same for Wetzel's Pretzels. Not food court.

 

Agreed. Also not food.

[Christopher]

19 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

Are you suggesting that in the same setting you'd rate a Limitation at one value for say a 6D6 Blast and at a different value for say a 12D6 Blast "based upon total situation....Power of the attack"??

Yes, of course. Why would that not raise your attention?

 

Either the 6DC attack is underpowered or the 12DC attack is overpowered. Something in your story is not adding up. Please provide actuall examples.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Either the 6DC attack is underpowered or the 12DC attack is overpowered.

 

I don't understand your concept of a power limitation here.  Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to think the limitation is based on the campaign, not the power.  So that a power gets a limitation based on whether its powerful for the campaign or not, rather than how much it actually limits the power in question.

[Killer Shrike]

20 hours ago, Christopher said:

Yes, of course. Why would that not raise your attention?

 

Either the 6DC attack is underpowered or the 12DC attack is overpowered. Something in your story is not adding up. Please provide actual examples.

 

Do you call people up on the phone and then demand that they tell you why you called them?

 

Its your story to explain and provide examples for; as you are the one suggesting that you do something that to the best of my knowledge is not typical.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

23 hours ago, Christopher said:

Either the 6DC attack is underpowered or the 12DC attack is overpowered. Something in your story is not adding up. Please provide actuall examples.

 

Would you then charge different amounts for the 6DC and 12DC attacks, discounting one which is underpowered (i.e. less than 5 points per DC of a 6DC attack) or premium pricing the overpowered one  (i.e. 12 DC is overpowered, so it costs more than 5 points per DC)?  If the limitation values should change, it seems like the base prices should change as well.

 

Perhaps the player with the 6 DC attack has chosen to play a support character whose attacks are well below the norm for the 12d6 setting he will be played in.  Maybe he takes a 6d6 Flash, a 3d6 STR Drain or a 3d6 SPD drain, expecting to have a minor impact on opponents but set his teammates up to have a greater impact.  Should he pay less than 30 points for 6DC attacks because he has chosen to buy significantly less than the campaign norm?  Can a different character have 15 DCs provided he pays extra for exceeding the campaign norms?

 

It seems like it would be really hard to design a character for that game.

 

Of course, you will slam me because that's not what you think you are saying, but it sure seems consistent with what you are saying.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 3/8/2019 at 8:53 PM, Killer Shrike said:

 

Agreed. Also not food.

If you can eat it, it’s food. Whether tasty or healthy is another matter. ?

[Killer Shrike]

19 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

If you can eat it, it’s food. Whether tasty or healthy is another matter. ?

 

I once ordered a so-called pretzel from an establishment operated by Mr. Wetzel or said person's duly appointed representatives, and rather than a tasty lightly salted bread-based snack I found myself biting into something with the physical characteristics of rubber sprinkled with chips of a quartz-like substance masquerading as salt. One bite and it went straight into the trashcan.

 

Maybe it was an isolated incident, but I haven't given them a second chance.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

KS, I thought you were talking pretzels in general. ?

[Ninja-Bear]

But more to the OP. Has anyone suggest perhaps a large Drain? It’s already all or nothing and can be deadly.

[Christopher]

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

But more to the OP. Has anyone suggest perhaps a large Drain? It’s already all or nothing and can be deadly.

I am 90% sure Drain is not all or Nothing. Transform is the only power I can think off being close to "all or nothing", and that one was brought up.

 

On 3/10/2019 at 9:34 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

Would you then charge different amounts for the 6DC and 12DC attacks, discounting one which is underpowered (i.e. less than 5 points per DC of a 6DC attack) or premium pricing the overpowered one  (i.e. 12 DC is overpowered, so it costs more than 5 points per DC)?  If the limitation values should change, it seems like the base prices should change as well.

I can not answer this with less then:

- Setting (Heroic/Superheroic).

- Campaign DC limits

- Specific Power

- Damage Classes

- Active points

 

There is too much uncertainty to ever give a non-solid answer and I do not want to give a non-solid answer.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

6 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

But more to the OP. Has anyone suggest perhaps a large Drain? It’s already all or nothing and can be deadly.

How is a Drain all or nothing? 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I still think this is pretty obviously an NND build of AVLD; if you have the defense it protects you completely and if you do not, then you take full damage.

[Ninja-Bear]

5 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

How is a Drain all or nothing? 

Whoops, I was thinking of Dispel.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

7 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Whoops, I was thinking of Dispel.

Ah, that makes more sense. 

If it's permitted, a Dispel BODY is actually a very viable method of picking off medium or lower BODY targets.  A 60 AP version will pretty reliably instagib a 15 BODY target for example. 

[Ninja-Bear]

On 3/4/2019 at 10:39 AM, John Desmarais said:

Ok, having read through the various ideas and, taking the originally stated source material (Potter) in account, here's my suggestion:  

 

Don't bother writing it up at all.  

 

Honestly, in the Potter books it's just a plot device.  For one reason or another, it never actually effects the heroes (PCs); and it would inappropriate for one of them to actually use it  - it just hangs out there as the ultimate magical plot threat where if it hits you die.  Other than as a mental exercise, I can't think of a reason to actually stat the thing up.

Except:

1) The OP asked for a build not if the build was appropriate.

2) This is a RPG not a story so Plot Armor is off in this case. 

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Except:

1) The OP asked for a build not if the build was appropriate.

2) This is a RPG not a story so Plot Armor is off in this case. 

 

The OP asked how one would simulate the Killing Curse.  In the source material, it tends to miss important targets, which suggests it is a plot device more than an ability.

 

Combat Luck is a form of Plot Armor designed to reflect characters who, despite having no visible means of protection, consistently survive hails of gunfire.  A high DCV does not cut it as an attack will eventually roll a 3

 

An AVLD/NND Does BOD with a defense that every major character has would simulate the source material quite nicely - instant death to anyone who is not a major character.  Do you have an alternative mechanism which would reflect the fact that only minor characters, offscreen characters or someone who wanted to be killed are ever killed by the "infallible" killing curse?

[massey]

Years ago, there was a game called Feng Shui.  I never got to play it, but did flip through the rulebook one day.  What I remember of the rules was that the game separated opponents into different groups.  You had powerful villains (don't remember what they were called) and mooks.  The thing about mooks was that you only had to hit them once or twice to drop them, and it didn't matter how you did it.  You could describe it however you wanted.  Shoot them, punch them, throw them out a window, it didn't matter.

 

The game was supposed to mimic wild action movies, and so it didn't matter if you just backhanded the mook or hit him with an axe, as long as you hit with a large enough margin of success (I don't remember exactly how it worked) they'd go down with one shot.  Mooks are there to go down fast.  Whether they're dead, or just knocked unconscious, it doesn't matter -- they're no longer in the game.

 

If you think about combat in that sense, a "killing curse" really doesn't have to be any more powerful than a normal attack.  It can be powerful enough to drop a mook, but for some reason it never affects main characters.

[Lucius]

26 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

The OP asked how one would simulate the Killing Curse.  In the source material, it tends to miss important targets, which suggests it is a plot device more than an ability.

 

Combat Luck is a form of Plot Armor designed to reflect characters who, despite having no visible means of protection, consistently survive hails of gunfire.  A high DCV does not cut it as an attack will eventually roll a 3

 

An AVLD/NND Does BOD with a defense that every major character has would simulate the source material quite nicely - instant death to anyone who is not a major character.  Do you have an alternative mechanism which would reflect the fact that only minor characters, offscreen characters or someone who wanted to be killed are ever killed by the "infallible" killing curse?

 

No Conscious Control?
 

Lucius Alexander

 

Side Effect: Palindromedary

[Killer Shrike]

On 3/12/2019 at 4:25 PM, massey said:

Years ago, there was a game called Feng Shui.  I never got to play it, but did flip through the rulebook one day.  What I remember of the rules was that the game separated opponents into different groups.  You had powerful villains (don't remember what they were called) and mooks.  The thing about mooks was that you only had to hit them once or twice to drop them, and it didn't matter how you did it.  You could describe it however you wanted.  Shoot them, punch them, throw them out a window, it didn't matter.

 

The game was supposed to mimic wild action movies, and so it didn't matter if you just backhanded the mook or hit him with an axe, as long as you hit with a large enough margin of success (I don't remember exactly how it worked) they'd go down with one shot.  Mooks are there to go down fast.  Whether they're dead, or just knocked unconscious, it doesn't matter -- they're no longer in the game.

 

If you think about combat in that sense, a "killing curse" really doesn't have to be any more powerful than a normal attack.  It can be powerful enough to drop a mook, but for some reason it never affects main characters.

 

Numerous games use separation between tiers of opposition. Some have full writeup bad guys and mooks, others have more than two tiers. 

 

Also, some GM's use a mook concept in Hero System games as well. I gathered some input from people and recorded a few methods many years ago, including my version, and posted it all up here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeLethalityOptions_Unofficial.aspx

 

CHUMP DROP

While the HERO System offers a rich model to define fully realized characters and track combat between them against a number of attack vectors and their corresponding mitigation resources (BODY, END, STUN, PD, ED, PowD, FD, MD and their Resistant variants) the simple fact is, in a typical campaign not all opponents the PC's will encounter are equally important and it is thus not really necessary to fully stat unimportant opponents so as to fully simulate their combat interactions.

Agents, mooks, goons, minions, minor monsters, whatever you want to call them ( I refer to them in general as "chumps") are just there to provide filler anyway and while treating them like full characters with the same benefits of END, STUN, and BODY as PC's and important NPC's is ok for some settings, it can get painful and counterproductive for others.

More to the point in most Fantasy settings it is usually appropriate to implement some kind of variant handling for such chumps and there are a number of different popular ones. You can also come up with your own method.

What constitutes a chump is less obvious, but my rule of thumb follows:

A given NPC is a chump if: U nimportant: the NPC is not important to the plot. N ameless: the NPC does not have a proper individual name. I nterchangeable: the NPC is or could be part of a group of very similar NPC's. T hrowaway: the NPC is a minor throwaway obstacle, not a real adversary.

I call any kind of House Rule that revolves around unimportant opponents getting removed from play easier than PC's and important NPC's as a "Chump Drop" mechanic. There are many variations of this basic idea, and it is almost not worth it to get into specifics on them as every GM that uses such a tool has their own preferred version, but I'll cover some of the more basic versions in brief:

X Number of Hits: An easy method to do chump drops is to just decide how many solid hits a chump can take, regardless of how much damage is really inflicted. Some might be one hit wonders, others might take two or five hits, but when their hit limit is reached they go down. Ignore BODY, 0 STUN = Dead: You can just ignore BODY for chumps, and assume if they hit 0 STUN they're done for. Ignore STUN, 0 BODY = Dead: You can conversely ignore STUN and just track BODY -- but still check for CON Stunning; this is kind of like turning chumps into weaker versions of Automatons without paying for it so be careful of doing this in conjunction with good defences. When Dramatically Appropriate: The GM just decides that when it is dramatically appropriate for a chump to exit the scene, whether due to getting taken out or fleeing or what have you, they do. The just GM narrates it, with no bookkeeping necessary.

There are a lot of advantages to this sort of resolution; not only does it ease the GM's administrative burden, it also makes PC's seem more potent. However they are still able to be challenged by non-chumps who get the full character treatment. The perceived lethality goes up, but the PC's themselves are immune to it so PC death doesn't upscale in conjunction.

 

 

[Lucius]

5 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

 

Numerous games use separation between tiers of opposition. Some have full bad guys and mooks, others have more than two tiers. 

 

Also, some GM's use a mook concept in Hero System games as well. I gathered some input from people and recorded a few methods many years ago, including my version, and posted it all up here:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeLethalityOptions_Unofficial.aspx

 

CHUMP DROP

While the HERO System offers a rich model to define fully realized characters and track combat between them against a number of attack vectors and their corresponding mitigation resources (BODY, END, STUN, PD, ED, PowD, FD, MD and their Resistant variants) the simple fact is, in a typical campaign not all opponents the PC's will encounter are equally important and it is thus not really necessary to fully stat unimportant opponents so as to fully simulate their combat interactions.

Agents, mooks, goons, minions, minor monsters, whatever you want to call them ( I refer to them in general as "chumps") are just there to provide filler anyway and while treating them like full characters with the same benefits of END, STUN, and BODY as PC's and important NPC's is ok for some settings, it can get painful and counterproductive for others.

More to the point in most Fantasy settings it is usually appropriate to implement some kind of variant handling for such chumps and there are a number of different popular ones. You can also come up with your own method.

What constitutes a chump is less obvious, but my rule of thumb follows:

A given NPC is a chump if: U nimportant: the NPC is not important to the plot. N ameless: the NPC does not have a proper individual name. I nterchangeable: the NPC is or could be part of a group of very similar NPC's. T hrowaway: the NPC is a minor throwaway obstacle, not a real adversary.

I call any kind of House Rule that revolves around unimportant opponents getting removed from play easier than PC's and important NPC's as a "Chump Drop" mechanic. There are many variations of this basic idea, and it is almost not worth it to get into specifics on them as every GM that uses such a tool has their own preferred version, but I'll cover some of the more basic versions in brief:

X Number of Hits: An easy method to do chump drops is to just decide how many solid hits a chump can take, regardless of how much damage is really inflicted. Some might be one hit wonders, others might take two or five hits, but when their hit limit is reached they go down. Ignore BODY, 0 STUN = Dead: You can just ignore BODY for chumps, and assume if they hit 0 STUN they're done for. Ignore STUN, 0 BODY = Dead: You can conversely ignore STUN and just track BODY -- but still check for CON Stunning; this is kind of like turning chumps into weaker versions of Automatons without paying for it so be careful of doing this in conjunction with good defences. When Dramatically Appropriate: The GM just decides that when it is dramatically appropriate for a chump to exit the scene, whether due to getting taken out or fleeing or what have you, they do. The just GM narrates it, with no bookkeeping necessary.

There are a lot of advantages to this sort of resolution; not only does it ease the GM's administrative burden, it also makes PC's seem more potent. However they are still able to be challenged by non-chumps who get the full character treatment. The perceived lethality goes up, but the PC's themselves are immune to it so PC death doesn't upscale in conjunction.

 

 

 

Minion: (Total: 35 Active Cost, -22 Real Cost)

Takes No STUN (60 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (BOD score halved; -2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Attacks that succeed by 4 pts ignore defenses; -2), Always On (-1/2) (Real Cost: 11)

plus

No Hit Locations (10 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (BOD score halved; -2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Attacks that succeed by 4 pts ignore defenses; -2) (Real Cost: 2)

plus

Susceptibility: Any attack succeeding by 3 or more 3d6 damage Instant, An attack succceeding by 2 does 2d6, 1 does 1d6, Standard Effect: 1 BOD per die (-25 Active Points) (Real Cost: -25)

plus

Accidental Change: Hors de combat: incapacitating attack rolled at -8 (-10 Active Points) (Real Cost: -10)

 

Applying this power to a character means:

 

Immunities: Character takes no STUN damage, cannot be stunned or knocked out, nor impaired or disabled, nor is the Hit Location chart used to modify damage.

 

Defense: Cut to 1/3

 

BOD: Cut to 1/2, also considered dead at 0 BOD

 

When attacked: Any to hit roll that succeeds by

1 pt: does 1 extra BOD damage (even if did not penetrate defenses)

2 pt: does 2 BOD damage over and above the damage done by the attack if any

3 pt: does 3 "bonus" BOD damage as above

> 3 pt: as above but ignore defenses

 

If someone actually wants to take a minion alive: an attack with a -8 penalty and appropriate description (targetting the head for a knockout, the legs to immobilize, etc) will leave a minion out of the fight but still alive.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is nosing around for the mini-onions it keeps hearing about

 

 

[PamelaIsley]

14 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

The OP asked how one would simulate the Killing Curse.  In the source material, it tends to miss important targets, which suggests it is a plot device more than an ability.

 

This is just an entirely wrong interpretation of how the power works in my opinion (I consider Voldemort, Dumbledore, Barty Crouch, James & Lily Potter, et al to be important targets), but we went over all that earlier.  I don't see a compromise resolution.