Awesome Space battle: The Orville, S2E9

[Scott Ruggels]

If anyone missed last week's episode of the Orville, they had an epic space battle of the type not seen since DS 9.. Very nicely done.
 

WoooHooHooHooo!

[archer]

I didn't think the Orville battle lived up to the last season of DS9 epic battles. But I wasn't expecting the Orville storyline to ever go in for an epic space battle at all so I was very pleased to see it.

 

I think Earth's alliance needs to go after the Kaylon and kick the Sithspit out of them without any delay. Planets with living biospheres and squishy dominant lifeforms are too fragile when faced with an enemy which is a mechanical lifeform that is completely unethical and hyper-smart.

 

Eventually the machines will figure out that they can do without the pretense and subtlety and just bring overwhelming force against worlds before defensive fleets can be assembled.

 

I'd like to actually see Isaac pass along the Kaylon shield upgrades, which was done to the Orville, along to the rest of the Planetary Union fleet. And get credit for doing it.

[Beast]

I see the Union building defense platforms around all union planets and maybe going the fed route of building pure warships along with then rest of the fleet
also there was a general recall of all union vessels ,so not everybody was in on the fight

[archer]

31 minutes ago, Beast said:

I see the Union building defense platforms around all union planets and maybe going the fed route of building pure warships along with then rest of the fleet
also there was a general recall of all union vessels ,so not everybody was in on the fight

 

The Kaylon goal is to extinguish life. They never specified "the Union" or even "sentient life" that I saw in the episodes.

 

The Kaylon could send single ships out in every direction to divert a comet or asteroid into every planet capable of sustaining life. It might be months before the first one hit any planet and by then the ships could have diverted asteroids to hit every non-industrialize world the Union fleet is likely to visit over the next decade. It'd be difficult if not impossible to even link what's happening to the Kaylon since the Kaylon are aware of what the Union can and can't detect on a normal basis and Union ships are likely to be falling back to cover Union space against the Kaylon threat rather than ranging out on exploration missions.

 

The Union, once it becomes aware of the threats, would be forced to divert the vast majority of the fleet in order to try to save non-Union worlds and their potential resources. Or alternatively they could choose to ignore all the death and destruction, which might make it more difficult for them to recruit allies among the surviving civilizations.

 

In any case, if the Union forces disperse, the Kaylon could have their choice of whether to attack Union worlds or whether to pick off Union ships while they're isolated.

 

And if the Union decides to not disperse the fleet, the Kaylon could make sure whatever S.O.S. messages the Union ignores comes to the awareness of every planetary government, inside and outside the Union. That might be even more dangerous because the Union might even rip itself apart from the inside if the individual planets come to think that the Union is callous and uncaring.

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

Having worked i n "The Industry" (however briefly), the fight was much different than the last season of DS9, There are differences due to "style"  (DS9's less dynamic camera, but more respectful of axis lines< versus The Orville's Fluid camera and chaotic lines of action),  and of course 25 years of progress, (DS9's composited explosions, versus The Orville's rendered explosions.) still, things were bright and clear, and you did see each fleet chewed on, and things were nicely color coordinated (The Union = Blue, The Kaylons = Red, and the Krill = Green) that kept things clear. because of greater reso;ution of Modern TV, the angagement and the relative sizes of ships on the screen have increased engagement ranges slightly, as well ?. The battle was comparable to the space battle against General Grievous over Coruscant in terms of Kinetics. I think the "Pew Pew" sounds were a bit wimpy for something that can puch through star ships, but the explosions were satisfying.

In Character, yes the Union, including the Mocklins, and the Krill, need to recycle the Kaylons post haste, but that may be too dark for the show. Also having spent a good chunk of the budget for a mid season two parter, I think the ship will settle down for a few episodes, and concentrate on the character stories again. These will either take place on the ship, or be on Location, as that keeps the set budgets low. We will see though, I know I will.

[Beast]

3 minutes ago, archer said:

 

The Kaylon goal is to extinguish life. They never specified "the Union" or even "sentient life" that I saw in the episodes.

 

The Kaylon could send single ships out in every direction to divert a comet or asteroid into every planet capable of sustaining life. It might be months before the first one hit any planet and by then the ships could have diverted asteroids to hit every non-industrialize world the Union fleet is likely to visit over the next decade. It'd be difficult if not impossible to even link what's happening to the Kaylon since the Kaylon are aware of what the Union can and can't detect on a normal basis and Union ships are likely to be falling back to cover Union space against the Kaylon threat rather than ranging out on exploration missions.

 

The Union, once it becomes aware of the threats, would be forced to divert the vast majority of the fleet in order to try to save non-Union worlds and their potential resources. Or alternatively they could choose to ignore all the death and destruction, which might make it more difficult for them to recruit allies among the surviving civilizations.

 

In any case, if the Union forces disperse, the Kaylon could have their choice of whether to attack Union worlds or whether to pick off Union ships while they're isolated.

 

And if the Union decides to not disperse the fleet, the Kaylon could make sure whatever S.O.S. messages the Union ignores comes to the awareness of every planetary government, inside and outside the Union. That might be even more dangerous because the Union might even rip itself apart from the inside if the individual planets come to think that the Union is callous and uncaring.

well then the union may be forced to share technology with every planet they can(like the people that imprison people who are born in that bad month)
or at least give them enough to build system defense boats and spread out construction)

there may also be other groups or vast empires other than the Union and Krill

It should also be pointed out that the Kaylons have said that they are getting too big for their planet and the lack of other blue lighted eyed Kaylon may mean that they have not gone into large scale production of post genicidal Kaylons
so they are right now mostly on 1 planet

 

[archer]

2 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

In Character, yes the Union, including the Mocklins, and the Krill, need to recycle the Kaylons post haste, but that may be too dark for the show. Also having spent a good chunk of the budget for a mid season two parter, I think the ship will settle down for a few episodes, and concentrate on the character stories again. These will either take place on the ship, or be on Location, as that keeps the set budgets low. We will see though, I know I will.

 

Yeah, budget constraints hurt on a science fiction show. They probably will background Isaac since this last major story arc revolved around him and focus on some other person in a character-driven story. But I'd like them to at least acknowledge in that low budget story that the human race is in danger of being made extinct and got damned lucky in the previous episode.

[DShomshak]

 

well, I was thinking of Babylon 5's battles against the Shadows and Vorlons, but yeah, an excellent space battle!

 

(I lost interest in DS9 areound season 5, along with the rest of the /Star Trek franchise. Perhaps I should go back and watch those last two seasons.)

 

Throughout the episode, I was wondering if Seth McFarlane would "pull a Roddenberry" and it would turn out this was all a test, the Kaylons were using stunners and put the Orville in a really big holodeck so there was no real space battle, and then Our Heroes would improbably find some "clever" way to shut down the Kaylons completely, and would they press the button and so justify Kaylon suspicion? Or live up to the Union's ideals and prove that humanity (et al) really had changed from its savage past? And, having passed the test, get a pat on the head from the super-aliens.

<retch>

I prefer this outcome.

 

There are still a few, um, inconsistencies. Like, why do the Kaylons care about planets? They should be building a Dyson sphere. No need even for gravity or atmosphere. And when they fill the sphere around their star, the Galaxy has plenty of red dwarf stars that apparently nobody else can use.

 

Such questions aside, I like that the Kaylons don't realize they just created the threat they feared. If they'd joined the Union, they could have tried discreetly controlling organic sapients to make sure they never backslide to savagery and become a threat.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Scott Ruggels]

The Kaylons said they needed planet to "expand".  WI think a lot of the Kaylons "thinking" is limited by the organics that programmed them, in that they think that planetyary real estate is usefyul and valuable.  Hey they may need to grab planetary masses to construct their Dyson sphere. 

 

Its interesting that they show the Kaylons as not "perfect". though.

[Killer Shrike]

That was a pretty good battle, particularly for  a TV show. 

 

I watched the first season of the Orville and liked parts of it, when it was being serious it's better at being Star Trek than Star Trek. But then they feel the need to pepper it with sophomoric humor that usually doesn't work for me. The good episodes were really good, but for every one of those there were one or two that were meh for me.

 

Is season 2 more serious or did they keep going with the comedy? Should I check it out or give it a pass?

 

As a touchstone, my preferred Star Trek is the more serious middle / late seasons of TNG, and Deep Space 9, and my favorite TV sci fi thus far has been Farscape, first season BS Galactica, Altered Carbon, and especially all seasons of the Expanse.

[Scott Ruggels]

I would say  that a lot of the themes of the second season seem more like the 1966-1969 show, but with a more deft hand, but yeah some of that juvenile humor that you don't like, but the did give their Security Chief, Alara, one of the sweetest sends offs of any character i have seen on an SF show. They also have a lot more character centric episodes, as well.   I like it, but then I can't say you will. 

 

(Altered Carbon makes me squirm a little, honestly, and I am not sure, why.)

[Killer Shrike]

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I would say  that a lot of the themes of the second season seem more like the 1966-1969 show, but with a more deft hand, but yeah some of that juvenile humor that you don't like, but the did give their Security Chief, Alara, one of the sweetest sends offs of any character i have seen on an SF show. They also have a lot more character centric episodes, as well.   I like it, but then I can't say you will. 

 

Yeah, other than some Spock bits, I did not care for the original series of ST.

 

Alara was the superstrong petite young lady who mostly existed for the "comedy" value of a small female opening all the pickle jars? Or am I misremembering? 

 

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

(Altered Carbon makes me squirm a little, honestly, and I am not sure, why.)

 

Interesting. It's a little emo at moments, but I like the gritty cyberpunk feel of it, and even though it makes no sense I really liked the Poe imitating AI hotel concierge.

[archer]

3 hours ago, DShomshak said:

There are still a few, um, inconsistencies. Like, why do the Kaylons care about planets? They should be building a Dyson sphere. No need even for gravity or atmosphere. And when they fill the sphere around their star, the Galaxy has plenty of red dwarf stars that apparently nobody else can use.

 

 

I'd wondered about that as well. My ideas:

 

1) The Kaylons obviously have limited mobility and flexibility compared to biological humanoids. It could be that the Kaylon haven't figured out how to significantly alter themselves without causing massive problems (certainly the Isaac model displays no substantial visible design upgrades to the normal Kaylon's very limited version of a humanoid body). We know that their bodies aren't airtight so it could be, for example, that they require a heat sink for their power system and use airflow for that.

 

Wearing a spacesuit would make them even less mobile than they are now. Going without a spacesuit could be hard on their components (radiation, heat, cold, etc.) or interfere with their cooling system. Just because they're a mechanical lifeform doesn't necessarily mean that they've spent points in Life Support or operating easily in other environments.

 

They're obviously designed to function in something close to normal Earth gravity. As awkward as they appear in that gravity, I have a hard time believing they wouldn't be the same or worse in lower gravity environments. Humans, on the other hand, seem to get adapt to be able to function in low gravity environments fairly well (if you ignore the long term health effects)...so it could be that the idea of "anyone should be able to adapt to functioning easily in a different environment" is an entirely human-centric way of looking at the universe and doesn't always match reality.

 

2) Hyper-smart doesn't always mean "reacts well to change" (yes, I'm playing the Sheldon Cooper card).

 

Leaving aside the potential psychological problems which might come from experiencing change, if the Kaylon have been stuck on one planet for most of their history, their entire industrial infrastructure could be based on functioning in normal gravity, normal air pressure, normal temperature, etc. If that's true, any change to that would mean either a complete redesign of their technology so that it would function in every environment or choosing to accept have non-standardized technology. Sure, they're smart enough to do either and probably could muster the resources to do either. But are they motivated to do either when they feel the need to wipe out biologicals anyway and there'll soon be empty planets everywhere?

 

I thought it was interesting that the Kaylon made the decision to construct their war fleet on the surface of their planet when most space design philosophies our culture has at the moment would suggest that construction in zero gravity or low gravity for most things would be more efficient. That could be a combination of bad writing and a limited budget for the show. Or it might be a look into the mindset or technological limitations of the Kaylon culture.

[archer]

7 minutes ago, Killer Shrike said:

 

Alara was the superstrong petite young lady who mostly existed for the "comedy" value of a small female opening all the pickle jars? Or am I misremembering? 

 

 

Yeah, that was her. I thought she had the most growth potential of any of the characters other than the captain or the first officer. I was sad to see her go.

 

Part of the Orville experience is supposed to poke fun at the Star Trek meme that humankind will automatically become more enlightened just because some time has passed.

 

Honestly, we've come a long way on stuff like slavery but we haven't gone very far on adults not acting like juveniles and people still by-and-large get a kick out of low brow humor. If people today read through Shakespeare, they'd recognize all the same comedic elements still being used in modern humor.  I'd imagine that humor will still be funny in the future and be a big part of human culture, that romance will still be messy and working through dating will still be a large part of the culture, etc.

 

The Orville's humor is certainly it-or-miss with me. But humor is always it-and-miss when people use it in real life (as opposed to being spoon fed professionally-written humor on the typical scripted TV show). I take a lot of the character's attempt to be funny to the other characters (rather than attempting to be funny to the audience) as being "the guy in your office who thinks he's a lot funnier than he really is". That's a touch of realism in a show which doesn't deal a lot in reality.

 

I found staging a dance contest rather than a gunfight to be funny. I didn't find Mr. Potato Head to be funny but I went along with it because it was in character for the guy who used it as part of a prank.

[Killer Shrike]

Sure. It was definitely a watchable show; I don't regret having seen the first season despite some clunker episodes. I liked Seth as the captain most of the time. I wasn't keen on the cringy relationship with his ex-wife XO. I like the Data analogue, I don't like the red haired idiot pilot friend. The rest of the cast I was "meh" on. I just wasn't sold on it enough to auto-buy the second season (I only stream). 

[Scott Ruggels]

2 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

 

Yeah, other than some Spock bits, I did not care for the original series of ST.

 

Alara was the superstrong petite young lady who mostly existed for the "comedy" value of a small female opening all the pickle jars? Or am I misremembering? 

Yes, and they gave her a really good episode to send her off with. This time her Prickly Parents show up.  as to the feel of the show this season. It's smoother, and what I mean it feels like the ST OS, is that they have a more "allegorical" episodes, like the first season Social Credit episode.  They are also fleshing out the universe more. But YMMV

 

2 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

 

 

Interesting. It's a little emo at moments, but I like the gritty cyberpunk feel of it, and even though it makes no sense I really liked the Poe imitating AI hotel concierge.

Oh I love Poe, but I guess its some of the "medical stuff"  Spending half of last year in a hospital kind of  turned me off a few things I used to like.

[Killer Shrike]

Ya, Social Credit was one of the standout episodes. I like it better when they take on things like that.

[Scott Ruggels]

56 minutes ago, Killer Shrike said:

Ya, Social Credit was one of the standout episodes. I like it better when they take on things like that.

 yes, there is more of that in Second Season. (Though the Porn addiction on the Holodeck one, was*..... However they tackled the issues leading to the addiction very seriously. Episode 7 has remarkably little humor for the series, and has an interesting take on the Mocklins.  A bit less humor, but you probably have to pick and choose episodes.

 

 

*uncomfortable, but it made it's point).

[DShomshak]

19 hours ago, archer said:

 

If people today read through Shakespeare, they'd recognize all the same comedic elements still being used in modern humor. 

 

Heck, humor hasn't changed much since ancient Greece and Rome. Lysistrata is a wonderfully rude comedy. Or here's how my home encyclopedia summarizes the comedies of Plautus: "The plots were usually based on love affairs, with complications arising from deception or mistaken identity."

 

2000 years before Plautus, the Egyptian scribe Ipuwer lamented that the world was going to hell because children didn't respect their parents anymore, like they did in the good old days. (Ipuwer was serious. Looking back, he's unintentionally funny.)

 

The Kaylons may have a point. Human institutions change. But people, as people, haven't and probably won't. So working a permanent change in human behavior requires building institutions that last indefinitely. A tall order. Though it might be easier if done in concert with people who (Isaac told us in Season 1) can live for millions of years and never forget why those institutions exist.

 

Dean Shomshak

[DShomshak]

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 3:26 PM, Killer Shrike said:

Sure. It was definitely a watchable show; I don't regret having seen the first season despite some clunker episodes. I liked Seth as the captain most of the time. I wasn't keen on the cringy relationship with his ex-wife XO. I like the Data analogue, I don't like the red haired idiot pilot friend. The rest of the cast I was "meh" on. I just wasn't sold on it enough to auto-buy the second season (I only stream). 

 

Incidentally, the latest episode centered on the red haired idiot pilot friend being faced with a test of competing loyalties that was Not Funny At All.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Killer Shrike]

I actually got a bunch of pop ups in my news feed re:Orville season 2 which collectively seem to agree that the show's gotten better with the Identity 2-parter. I guess I'll give the show another chance.

 

https://news.google.com/topics/CAAqKAgKIiJDQkFTRXdvTkwyY3ZNVEZqTVc0NGJYbzVhaElDWlc0b0FBUAE?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen

 

 

[Christopher]

On 3/5/2019 at 9:22 AM, Scott Ruggels said:

If anyone missed last week's episode of the Orville, they had an epic space battle of the type not seen since DS 9.. Very nicely done.
 

WoooHooHooHooo!

 

On 3/6/2019 at 5:24 AM, archer said:

I didn't think the Orville battle lived up to the last season of DS9 epic battles. But I wasn't expecting the Orville storyline to ever go in for an epic space battle at all so I was very pleased to see it.

Seeing this, I can not really see a lot of similarties with Star Trek. Maybe because there is a Federation of sorts?

 

But if anything, this is more like a Star Wars Battle:

 

Poorly definied Weapons and Defenses, wich means any ship can explode with a few hits at any moment?

Color Coded Weaponry?

[Scott Ruggels]

On 3/13/2019 at 11:32 AM, Christopher said:

 

Seeing this, I can not really see a lot of similarties with Star Trek. Maybe because there is a Federation of sorts?

 

But if anything, this is more like a Star Wars Battle:

poorly definied Weapons and Defenses, wich means any ship can explode with a few hits at any moment?

Color Coded Weaponry?

 

Yes. Because you really can't have a realistic space battle  that the masses would understand.  Even The Expanse while more realistic than The Orville, keeps the ships color coded and labelled, and keeps the engagements to only one or two ships at a time. For entertainment  reasons, a space battle has to be at "knife fighting ranges" like a tall ships battle. and have to be flagged.  Basically a television or movie space battle, for the most part, is a Zero G NFL game, for the masses to understand it.

 

[archer]

9 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

Yes. Because you really can't have a realistic space battle  that the masses would understand.  Even The Expanse while more realistic than The Orville, keeps the ships color coded and labelled, and keeps the engagements to only one or two ships at a time. For entertainment  reasons, a space battle has to be at "knife fighting ranges" like a tall ships battle. and have to be flagged.  Basically a television or movie space battle, for the most part, is a Zero G NFL game, for the masses to understand it.

 

 

Exactly.

 

In any kind of realistic space battle, if the viewers could see one ship, they wouldn't be able to see the ship it was fighting with the naked eye. The capital ships would at least be hundreds of miles away from each other and not lit up so that they're easy to see.

 

 

[Old Man]

Finally caught up with Orville (up to Ep 9 anyway).  I probably wouldn't have bothered if I hadn't seen this thread title and been dying to click on it for two weeks, but I'm glad I did.

 

You know, the battle itself was somewhat anticlimactic.  By the time the shooting started any plot or character development had already occurred.  We knew what was going to happen, and the fight itself could have been skipped almost entirely.  The ship-to-ship action was well made but dizzying.  If not for the color coding it would have been completely incomprehensible.  None of this changes the fact that it was a good conclusion to a great two-part episode--even a great four-part episode if you include the ones with Dr. Finn.

 

As something of a military history geek I prefer a more capital-ship feel to space combat.  We got no detail as to weapons, defenses, or tactics other than a general sense that Kaylon ships are more dangerous than Union ones.  There's nothing there for technobabble fans.  But I understand why that is.