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Linked Question

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I believe Linked has an option for "Greater Power is in use always or most of the time."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary says that Greywind is right, Growth Always On is technically against the rules.

 

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As a GM, I'd ask in what way the Linked limited anything.  When would your Always On power not be on?  Basically never, right?  So what restriction does that place on the use of your Armor?  Basically none, right?  So I would say that Linked would be worth -0. 

 

Also, as Greywind mentioned, HERO strongly suggests buying "always big/small" as a set of benefits with the "size" SFX and the appropriate size physical limitation. 

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Too Big to Hurt:  (Total: 9 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Resistant Protection (3 PD/3 ED); Linked (Growth; Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -0) (Real Cost: 9)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Not too big to ride a palindromedary

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Not arguing that Growth ALO is against the rules from 5e on up.

 

I disagree with that rule, but not for the "gimmes" that come with an Always-on power that hands out STR, defenses, etc--

 

The idea behind the rule seems reasonably apparent: "No freebies."   This appears to be supported by the rule's recommendation to  instead declare your character to be "size X" and buy the things that would have been added in such as STR or what-have-you.

 

I disagree with for the simple reason that "simply being size X" can't be Drained or Suppressed.  It can be Transformed, certainly, but there is a lot of story potential for Big Joe, who has come to rely on his great strength and slightly exaggerated reach (older editions) to suddenly be deprived of them.  Same with the Titan, who's super-dense metallic body has granted him a bit of extra defense.  

 

That, and by the time you reduce the END down (_especially_ in older editions! Wow! ) and add Persistent (not so required in older editions) you _might_ save a couple of points, but not usually enough to make it a big savings unless you're buying a _lot_ of Growth (or shrinking, or DI or what-have-you).

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11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Not arguing that Growth ALO is against the rules from 5e on up.

 

I disagree with that rule, but not for the "gimmes" that come with an Always-on power that hands out STR, defenses, etc--

 

The idea behind the rule seems reasonably apparent: "No freebies."   This appears to be supported by the rule's recommendation to  instead declare your character to be "size X" and buy the things that would have been added in such as STR or what-have-you.

 

I disagree with for the simple reason that "simply being size X" can't be Drained or Suppressed.  It can be Transformed, certainly, but there is a lot of story potential for Big Joe, who has come to rely on his great strength and slightly exaggerated reach (older editions) to suddenly be deprived of them.  Same with the Titan, who's super-dense metallic body has granted him a bit of extra defense.  

 

That, and by the time you reduce the END down (_especially_ in older editions! Wow! ) and add Persistent (not so required in older editions) you _might_ save a couple of points, but not usually enough to make it a big savings unless you're buying a _lot_ of Growth (or shrinking, or DI or what-have-you).

 

I am intrigued that you disagree with the rule.  It always made complete sense to me because HERO is human-focussed and that would lead to strange cause and effects purely due to game mechanics.

 

Now, take the example of building a giraffe.  In 4th I would have bought a level or two of growth as part of making that character big and the growth would be always on.  I do not think that drain or suppress Growth should shrink a giraffe to man-size (but no smaller).  What I should have done was use the Growth to get an idea of what stats I should buy for being that big and then simply stating that the giraffe is giraffe size.  Any change to size should then be from the base of being a giraffe, not from the base of being a human.  I can also take some complications due to my size.

 

There should be no need to have Growth, always on.  You buy Growth if you want to be able to change your size during the game, not if you want a character that is always big.  Seems simple to me.

 

Doc

 

 

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My appologies, Doc:

 

I should have been more clear:

 

I think the rule is solid advice for making someone or something that is simply "big," particularly when that bigness doesn't include traits given by the power:  say "eight feet tall, five hundred eighty pounds, but no stronger that any other guy." 

 

I should have said that I do not disallow the "always on" build (it's why we created the "inherent" modifier umpteen years ago).  I find it to be appropriate for certain builds, in particular those builds where the power can be somehow taken away.  As a simple example, say some archeologist touches some bit of jeweled statuary just the right way and Boom! He's blessed/cursed by being transformed into a living temple guardian, twelve feet tall and made of stone.  He can't turn it off, but something may take it away from time to time- no reason to go into possibles; it's just an example of the sort of thing for which I feel always on is appropriate. 

 

 

Sincere appologies for my lack of detail earlier, it's just that using a touch screen is a severe PITA so I kept it brief. 

 

 

 

Duke

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34 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I should have said that I do not disallow the "always on" build (it's why we created the "inherent" modifier umpteen years ago).  I find it to be appropriate for certain builds, in particular those builds where the power can be somehow taken away.  As a simple example, say some archeologist touches some bit of jeweled statuary just the right way and Boom! He's blessed/cursed by being transformed into a living temple guardian, twelve feet tall and made of stone.  He can't turn it off, but something may take it away from time to time- no reason to go into possibles; it's just an example of the sort of thing for which I feel always on is appropriate. 

 

I will play Devil's Advocate on this, because I understand there might be a situation where a drain might be expected to work but I dont think this is it.

 

So, you become a living temple guardian and you are instantly 12 foot tall.  I am going to presume that, for example, this transformation is magical and the effects are all in a framework with a magic special effect, and the drain is some kind of magic drain rather than being directed straight at growth because that would be even more implausible.  So the drain hits and you drop a whole level of growth?  One level at a time?  No intermediate stuff?  Would it not be more fitting for it to be all or nothing?  Perhaps due to a limitation on the framework, that under certain circumstances the whole framework becomes unavailable??

 

My issue is with the intermediate effects, the slow draining and possibly slow recovery where the character is not fully an archaeologist or fully a temple guardian.  The system works that way but I am not sure it reflects the vision of either the drain power or the character build.

 

I am trying also to think about what a growth drain might be, something that only affects a character that has grown beyond his natural size but will not shrink him beyond that natural size (a failure on my imagination I think) but whatever the SFX, having that growth drain also remove his magical defences, ability to fire flame from his eyes and all of the additional STR seems a stretch....

 

Doc

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:rofl: :rofl:

 

Oh, Doc;  thank you, for both the memories and the sort-of validation. I have been on the unpopular end of that discussion numerous times,  so it's nice to see someone else on my end of it. 

 

Yes; I'm typically I. The "sfx trump mechanics" group, and would agree with you.  I would love to give some examples, but ten minute break and touch screen are not conducive to long diatribes.  :(

 

However, even the mechanics-trumps-everything group can see the validity, by the rules, of such a situation.   And as far as sfx-first, why not?  A drain, growth or DI, would reduce the appropriate amount of power;  suppress "magic" could be thinned out and applied equally, with appropriate resuklts:  no longer stone, nine feet tall--  whatever. 

 

But it doesn't work on a guy who "just is" really really big. 

 

If I have time, I'll try again tonight. 

 

 

Duke

 

 

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1 hour ago, Cassandra said:

I should have mentioned this is for the 5th Edition or Champions Classic as I like to call it.

 

22 hours ago, Lucius said:

Too Big to Hurt:  (Total: 9 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Resistant Protection   Armor(3 PD/3 ED); Linked (Growth; Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -0) (Real Cost: 9)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Not too big to ride a palindromedary

 

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On 3/5/2019 at 3:29 PM, Cassandra said:

 

If you purchased Growth with No END, Persistent, and Always On could you take Armor, Linked to Growth?

Skipped most of the posts but I don’t see why not I assume though that being linked if Growth is drained or you somehow lose it so does Armor.

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15 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

:rofl: :rofl:

 

Oh, Doc;  thank you, for both the memories and the sort-of validation. I have been on the unpopular end of that discussion numerous times,  so it's nice to see someone else on my end of it. 

 

Yes; I'm typically I. The "sfx trump mechanics" group, and would agree with you.  I would love to give some examples, but ten minute break and touch screen are not conducive to long diatribes.  :(

 

However, even the mechanics-trumps-everything group can see the validity, by the rules, of such a situation.   And as far as sfx-first, why not?  A drain, growth or DI, would reduce the appropriate amount of power;  suppress "magic" could be thinned out and applied equally, with appropriate resuklts:  no longer stone, nine feet tall--  whatever. 

 

But it doesn't work on a guy who "just is" really really big. 

 

If I have time, I'll try again tonight. 

 

 

Duke

 

 

 

I am going to screenshot this one - it is a Duke post that I do not have to scroll down to finish reading....

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On 3/6/2019 at 2:06 AM, Lucius said:

Too Big to Hurt:  (Total: 9 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Resistant Protection (3 PD/3 ED); Linked (Growth; Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -0) (Real Cost: 9)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Not too big to ride a palindromedary

Could you write up a "Too Big to fail" power?

 

On 3/6/2019 at 3:39 AM, Duke Bushido said:

I disagree with for the simple reason that "simply being size X" can't be Drained or Suppressed.  It can be Transformed, certainly, but there is a lot of story potential for Big Joe, who has come to rely on his great strength and slightly exaggerated reach (older editions) to suddenly be deprived of them.  Same with the Titan, who's super-dense metallic body has granted him a bit of extra defense.

"Unified" deals with that part. And I somewhat doubt "Drain: Growth" is really common enough to worry about this in most games.

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Godzilla for 350 points? Wow. Mine comes in at about 750/800.

 

as for the actual  question: You can. But as Lucius points out it ain't worth much as a disad. in this case.

 

(The CU has one example of a shrunken kaiju, it can happen. But not often.)

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I think the thing is that, for Godzilla, I would not be buying Growth always on, as to shrink him, you should be using transform, not drain growth...unless there is Godzilla lore that I have missed (my knowledge is superficial).

 

I would use the Growth table to see what stats I should buy to get the growth benefits and simply say She is Godzilla-sized.

 

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57 minutes ago, Cassandra said:

I asked because I have a series of Legend Level characters built on 350 Points instead of my usually 250 Points.  This question is for a version of Godzilla.

 

How big is Godzilla anyway?
 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks if Godzilla has a mate named Goddesszilla....

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12 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

I think the thing is that, for Godzilla, I would not be buying Growth always on, as to shrink him, you should be using transform, not drain growth...unless there is Godzilla lore that I have missed (my knowledge is superficial). 

 

I would use the Growth table to see what stats I should buy to get the growth benefits and simply say She is Godzilla-sized.

I mean, isn't Godzilla like the Poster Child of "Permanent Grown"?

 

Size the Powers in 6E are explicitly only for changing your size:
"A character with this Size Power can increase his size.[...]Growth is for characters who can alter their size. If a character is exceptionally large all the time, he simulates that by buying a Size Template
(see 6E1 443)" - 6E1 229

Note that the Italics are in the original text. I did not add them for disambiguity.

 

On 3/6/2019 at 5:03 PM, Doc Democracy said:

So, you become a living temple guardian and you are instantly 12 foot tall.

That means you have either:

- Multiform (into something that is natrually grown). In wich case Multiform should be drained or transformed away.

- Growth the power. A Size Power. Wich can be drained.

 

3 minutes ago, Lucius said:

How big is Godzilla anyway?

It varries based on wich one you mean.

The 1954 original was a 'mere' 50 meters.

The lastest movie put him at 150 meters.

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@Palindromedary: probably not. Godzilla is female, and unlikely to be a lesbian. I say this based on nothing more than reptiles are not famous for having "relationships" merely relations for the sake of breeding. But hey, there's more knowledgeable people here than me when it comes to reptilian relations. They may contradict me.

 

@Lucius. Was just wondering that myself. 200m? 300m? Damn it, if only there were some sort of searchable data-base thingy that had an obsession with pop culture that we could refer to.

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The height of movie Godzillas over the years has fluctuated between 50 meters (the original 1954 Godz) and 118 meters (the final form of Shin Gojira/Shin Godzilla/Godzilla Resurgent, depending on title used for the 2016 Japanese movie). The Legendary Pictures Godzilla (predecessor to this summer's Godzilla: King of the Monsters) is officially 108 meters tall.

 

Some sources state that the Hanna-Barbera animated series Godzilla from 1978 was 122 meters tall, but I've found no official studio statement to that effect. I do remember that the introductory song to that series declared he was "thirty stories high," which would be around 90 meters/300 feet. However, "Godzilla Earth" from the recent Japanese anime trilogy is by far the largest Godzilla ever, standing over 300 meters in height.

 

Here's a slick and entertaining visual comparison of all the Godzillas over the movies' history.

 

 

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