Supervillain Holocaust 6E Error and Question

[PamelaIsley]

So there's a pretty strange mistake in Holocaust's bio in the 6E Master Villains book.  It doesn't appear in his 5E bio, so it's a little weird that it was introduced.  In the Associates, Allies, and Adversaries section, it mentions that Geoffrey Haganstone knows Rep. David Sutherland (the villain Invictus) and can sense his energy powers.  It goes on to say that he plans to blackmail Sutherland with this information.

 

Except . . . everyone knows that Sutherland has energy powers.  He's a famous superhero turned politician (who is actually a villain).  There's nothing to blackmail.  Invictus, in fact, has his own writeup just a few pages after Holocaust where this is spelled out.  

 

This might have been pointed out before but it isn't that easy to search this forum.

 

On another note, just out of curiosity, what do people think of Holocaust's name?  I hate to be too sensitive (or snowflakey), but I really like this character's background (particularly the Alliance storyline), but can't bring myself to use him in anything or develop any threads for him because I just feel a bit queasy about his villain identity.  Am I just being too prickly?

[Scott Ruggels]

One.) the name was fine a few years ago, but has in the parlance of the kids these days, has become, “problematic “ or sensitive. It’s up to you, and your knowledge of the players that you would determine if a name change is appropriate. 

 

Two). The blackmail plot, might be an amusing piece of “botched oppo research.” Trust could result in an amusing side plot involving a medial leak and some choice sound bytes from senior politicians  complaining about the

media, or lack of history education. Making Holocaust look a little nfoolish unless he squelches the leak. 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

16 minutes ago, PamelaIsley said:

On another note, just out of curiosity, what do people think of Holocaust's name?  I hate to be too sensitive (or snowflakey), but I really like this character's background (particularly the Alliance storyline), but can't bring myself to use him in anything or develop any threads for him because I just feel a bit queasy about his villain identity.  Am I just being too prickly?

It's a word.  Words don't magically have hurtfulness or evil stapled to them, they're just words.  Some people may get upset if you use some words, but if you're not being malicious that's entirely their business.  It's up to you to decide how much you care about those people's feelings and how much you care about your freedom of expression. 

[Killer Shrike]

I had not noticed that. You might want to ask Steve in the Ask Steve section. It isn't technically a rules question but he might answer. It may be errata, it may be an artifact of a different draft take on one or both characters. I think the main takeaway there would probably be "H" having some leverage on Invictus. The exact nature of the leverage is just a mcguffin at the end of the day and could be tweaked to whatever suited your needs. 

 

I've not used "H" in 6e but he did feature prominently as a big bad in one of my 5e Champions Universe campaigns. I ran the Millennial Men through parts of Champions Battlegrounds, starting off with the Holocaust encounter. I beefed him up / tweaked his build and used him as a straight up Magneto analog.

 

There was a cool moment in the raging super battle that inevitably ensued where some Minuteman robots (the Sentinel analog used by the IHA / mutant hating humies) descended to attack "H". The heroes and "H" all paused in their fight with one another without discussion or overture of truce and they worked together to destroy the giant robots; afterwards there was a pause as they all took stock.

 

"H" soliloquied of course, thanking the heroes for recognizing the Minutemen as a greater threat, both to mutantkind as well as common decency. In recognition that they were worthy opponents he offered them an out...all they had to do was just leave peaceably and let him destroy the IHA related mcguffin he was there to get rid of. The heroes of course refused even though they were battered and losing, but it provided an unplanned opportunity for dialogue and it changed the tenor of the combat once it resumed.

 

In the end the heroes had to defeat him via trickery (they used a powerful illusionary effect to make him THINK he had succeeded in destroying the thing he wanted to destroy) and he flew off. 

 

I was really on my game that day and the players took to my portrayal of "H" as a classic tragic / sympathetic villain who just takes things a little too far. I had intended to bring him back for a second arc but never got around to it...the timing was never right and then of course it eventually ended.

 

If I were to bring him back for 6e, I'd probably change his name along with some tweaks to his stock background to solidify the Magneto niche. There's the bones of a good character in there, particularly if you have mutants in your group and if you and / or your players have a background in the various X-titles or movies.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, Haganstone chose the name "Holocaust" precisely for its frightening and intimidating connotations; although probably not for association with The Holocaust. It's true that many people today automatically link the word to that event, but it existed long before. Personally I can separate the two in my mind.

 

Interestingly, historically the word "holocaust" referred to a sacrificial offering that was completely consumed by fire, dating back to ancient Greece. Just shows how words evolve.

 

[BTW for the 6E CU, Kinematik (Champions Villains Vol. 1) has become the obvious Magneto analogue, in mindset if not precisely in powers.]

[Killer Shrike]

Kinematik doesn't do it for me, personally. 

[PamelaIsley]

51 minutes ago, Killer Shrike said:

Kinematik doesn't do it for me, personally. 

 

Yeah, his bio falls totally flat to me too.  A little too farfetched and weird.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Killer Shrike said:

Kinematik doesn't do it for me, personally. 

 

35 minutes ago, PamelaIsley said:

 

Yeah, his bio falls totally flat to me too.  A little too farfetched and weird.

 

You have every right not to like or want to use Kinematik. But considering the precedents from comic-book worlds in general, including the CU, IMO Kinematik's bio is credible, logical and in-genre.

[PamelaIsley]

3 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

 

You have every right not to like or want to use Kinematik. But considering the precedents from comic-book worlds in general, including the CU, IMO Kinematik's bio is credible, logical and in-genre.

 

" I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here."

[Lord Liaden]

Sorry, I know the quotation, but I'm not getting the relevance.

[starblaze]

It's from the movie Casablanca.

[starblaze]

2 hours ago, PamelaIsley said:

 

" I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here."

"Here are your winnings sir"

 

[Killer Shrike]

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

You have every right not to like or want to use Kinematik. But considering the precedents from comic-book worlds in general, including the CU, IMO Kinematik's bio is credible, logical and in-genre.

 

I certainly appreciate the suggestion, LL. Your knowledge of the setting is remarkable and I very definitely appreciate you chiming in with info about what is already available in the published material, and bringing attention to lore and things that have gone before. You're like the congressional librarian of the Hero System, and I've got mad respect for your dedication. So, please, keep dropping pearls of wisdom and references whenever you see fit.

 

 

As to K himself, if H didn't exist in the setting, or if I didn't already have some personal success with H, or if I hadn't adapted H to fill the "Magneto" niche, I'd be more likely to take K and tweak him around. His mechanics are ok; if I'm willing to put some work in ahead of time to sit down with the powers book and get him set up, I could get it rigged for play without much trouble. 

 

The main thing I'm meh on is his background and personality. His motivations are tied to his big secret, so it's difficult to make him seem sympathetic without revealing it. Once it is revealed, the fact that there is such a place as where K comes from is more interesting / compelling for adventure than K himself.

 

Also, K's flunkys are a mixed bag, difficult to use (it seems to me) in a coherent way. If they were a little more out of the box usable (for me) that would help push K up a bit in my estimation. 

 

____________

 

I have a thing in my setting called M-Force which is a group of mutants that are kind of the X-Men parallel, though less centralized and with a range of positions from the non-violent to the militant to the terroristic among its members / associated peoples.

 

If I were to incorporate K and / or his henchmen, it would probably be within the umbrella of that organization / movement, and I would either script away K's origin elements OR I would make that the hook for including him in the fist place. In fact it seems to me, it would be most interesting to START him in his origin place, and introduce the PC's to his origin place in a sort of Days of Futures Past / House of M sort of alt looking glass thing, and then have him and some people from that place end up in the main setting. That sets him up a lot better, the PC's are in on the secret, and he and his peeps seem much more sympathetic even as they are aggressively distrustful and polarized.

 

I might even set him up within that context as a terroristic corner of a triangle with a more mature (personality wise) and merely militant version of H as another corner,  and a more peace-love idealistic / moderate mutant leader as the third corner of the triangle, with a sort of Malcolm X / Sharpton / MLK dynamic.

 

I think that could work, if I was willing to devote a couple of 3-5 session arcs to setting it up. It would have to be with a group with at least two players who were into the Marvel X titles, I think. Otherwise I imagine it would be too cliche and played out. Personally, I've been over the mutants as civil rights metaphor for a long time now, but that still resonates with some people and thus for a certain group of players it would be gusto for the gumbo.

[archer]

13 hours ago, PamelaIsley said:

So there's a pretty strange mistake in Holocaust's bio in the 6E Master Villains book.  It doesn't appear in his 5E bio, so it's a little weird that it was introduced.  In the Associates, Allies, and Adversaries section, it mentions that Geoffrey Haganstone...

 

On another note, just out of curiosity, what do people think of Holocaust's name?  I hate to be too sensitive (or snowflakey), but I really like this character's background (particularly the Alliance storyline), but can't bring myself to use him in anything or develop any threads for him because I just feel a bit queasy about his villain identity.  Am I just being too prickly?

 

Personally when I looked at your question, I tried to figure out what was wrong with the name "Haganstone" which might be offensive to people. It wasn't until I googled Haganstone and found out that it had no meaning that I read more closely to find out what you meant by the question.

 

The word "holocaust" has been around since ancient Greece (holos + kaustos meaning "whole burnt"). The word was carried over into Latin then old French then into English when the French moved in and ruined the language (j/k).

 

I wouldn't use the name to intentionally drive off a player. But I expect adults in my games to be adults and to be exposed to some uncomfortable concepts without causing a problem about it (the occasional bit of gore, homosexuality, pansexuality, nudist colonies, topless beaches, the holocaust, genocide, drugs, etc. I don't personally ever do rape stories in any kind of detail but the players might have to deal, at least in passing, with NPC's who've been brutalized.)

 

If their character wants to get mad at Holocaust for using that name, that's a great roleplaying opportunity.

 

But if the player wants to be mad at me for using a character which has that name, honestly, I'm not okay with that on any level.

[drunkonduty]

Yeah, the name comes with a whole lot of baggage. If you're going to use it, as opposed to just renaming him, be sure everyone is cool with it. You could come up with an in-game reason why he uses it. Something that will show him to be an insensitive SOB.

 

He could, in his mind,  be "reclaiming the name."

 

He sees himself as part of a reviled minority and so identifies with the Jewish people and decides to reclaim the name. Of course doing something like that as a privileged rich WASP kid is pretty on the nose, but he is a villain...

[archer]

6 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

Yeah, the name comes with a whole lot of baggage. If you're going to use it, as opposed to just renaming him, be sure everyone is cool with it. You could come up with an in-game reason why he uses it. Something that will show him to be an insensitive SOB.

 

He could, in his mind,  be "reclaiming the name."

 

He sees himself as part of a reviled minority and so identifies with the Jewish people and decides to reclaim the name. Of course doing something like that as a privileged rich WASP kid is pretty on the nose, but he is a villain...

 

From what I was told in church as a kid, "holocaust" was formerly the word that Jewish people used to refer to the burnt animal offerings which were made on altars back in Old Testament days. I've seen that story repeated on the internet in various places but I haven't looked on anything which I'd consider to be an authoritative site on Jewish religious practices or terminology to confirm it is actually true.

[Lord Liaden]

9 hours ago, starblaze said:

It's from the movie Casablanca.

 

Like I said, I recognized it. I just don't yet recognize how it pertains to my comment that PamelaIsley quoted.

 

8 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

As to K himself, if H didn't exist in the setting, or if I didn't already have some personal success with H, or if I hadn't adapted H to fill the "Magneto" niche, I'd be more likely to take K and tweak him around. His mechanics are ok; if I'm willing to put some work in ahead of time to sit down with the powers book and get him set up, I could get it rigged for play without much trouble. 

 

The main thing I'm meh on is his background and personality. His motivations are tied to his big secret, so it's difficult to make him seem sympathetic without revealing it. Once it is revealed, the fact that there is such a place as where K comes from is more interesting / compelling for adventure than K himself.

 

Also, K's flunkys are a mixed bag, difficult to use (it seems to me) in a coherent way. If they were a little more out of the box usable (for me) that would help push K up a bit in my estimation.

 

All of which sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I never meant to try to push you toward using Kinematik instead of Holocaust in that role, and if I gave that impression I apologize.

 

And thank you for your generous compliments. ?

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, archer said:

 

From what I was told in church as a kid, "holocaust" was formerly the word that Jewish people used to refer to the burnt animal offerings which were made on altars back in Old Testament days. I've seen that story repeated on the internet in various places but I haven't looked on anything which I'd consider to be an authoritative site on Jewish religious practices or terminology to confirm it is actually true.

 

I've seen that connection bruited about myself. Even if the word was indeed used in connection to Jewish religious ritual, as archer points out, and my own brief research corroborates, the etymology of the word itself is definitely Greek in origin. Of course cross-pollination between cultures around the Mediterranean was quite common, so I wouldn't hazard a guess as to who came up with what first.

[PamelaIsley]

8 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

Yeah, the name comes with a whole lot of baggage. If you're going to use it, as opposed to just renaming him, be sure everyone is cool with it. You could come up with an in-game reason why he uses it. Something that will show him to be an insensitive SOB.

 

 

The strange thing is that his bio states that he has a sense of noblesse oblige and his ultimate goal is to convince the people of the world to join him.  That, um, clashes quite strongly with the name he deliberately chose (and I know the bio says he chose it to strike fear in people; the fact is that it isn't going to strike fear so much as just be radically offensive or at least stoke the anger of a large segment of the population he wants to control).

 

I usually don't care about things like this.  And I certainly am not suggesting anyone else should.  It's just whenever I sit down to write out a possible campaign thread (and I do this a lot), I always rule him out (even though he is a much more flexible master villain than most others) because of this issue.  I think I'm going to use Gravitar in an Alliance-type situation even though it doesn't make quite as much sense.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, PamelaIsley said:

The strange thing is that his bio states that he has a sense of noblesse oblige and his ultimate goal is to convince the people of the world to join him.  That, um, clashes quite strongly with the name he deliberately chose (and I know the bio says he chose it to strike fear in people; the fact is that it isn't going to strike fear so much as just be radically offensive or at least stoke the anger of a large segment of the population he wants to control).

 

If Geoffrey Haganstone was a real person, I'd say his "noblesse oblige" is a rationalization for his real motivation, the desire for power and glory. Most real-world dictators find intellectually-acceptable justifications for doing what they just really want to do.

 

1 hour ago, PamelaIsley said:

I usually don't care about things like this.  And I certainly am not suggesting anyone else should.  It's just whenever I sit down to write out a possible campaign thread (and I do this a lot), I always rule him out (even though he is a much more flexible master villain than most others) because of this issue.  I think I'm going to use Gravitar in an Alliance-type situation even though it doesn't make quite as much sense.

 

If I find myself bothered by the name of a character I otherwise want to use, I just change the name. I've done that with a few official Champs villains already. In this case I might go with something more reflective of his aspiration to rule, but also intimidating, such as Monarch, Overlord, or Tyrant. Or maybe something more evocative of his powers, such as Balor, the Fomorian giant from Irish myth whose single eye could kill with a glance.

[PamelaIsley]

2 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

If I find myself bothered by the name of a character I otherwise want to use, I just change the name. I've done that with a few official Champs villains already. In this case I might go with something more reflective of his aspiration to rule, but also intimidating, such as Monarch, Overlord, or Tyrant. Or maybe something more evocative of his powers, such as Balor, the Fomorian giant from Irish myth whose single eye could kill with a glance.

 

Overlord is good.  I was thinking of Inferno, but his powers aren't really fire based.  Cataclysm might work.  Overlord or Tyrant are probably the best choices (the only slight quibble being he actually doesn't lead or control anyone at the moment).

[Lord Liaden]

12 minutes ago, PamelaIsley said:

 

Overlord is good.  I was thinking of Inferno, but his powers aren't really fire based.  Cataclysm might work.  Overlord or Tyrant are probably the best choices (the only slight quibble being he actually doesn't lead or control anyone at the moment).

 

"He’s convinced it’s only a matter of time before he finds a way to triumph." (CV 1 p. 48)  His name would just be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

One example of how I approach a name-change for an official villain is the Incubus (CV 3), the setting's Mr. Myxyzptlk analogue. His style and appearance have nothing to do with a mythic incubus, a sexually predatory demon, male counterpart to the succubus. But Steve Long has written that he just liked the sound of the name for this character. I wanted to keep that sound element, but make it more thematically appropriate. I ended up renaming him Impius, a play on both "imp" and "impious."

[PamelaIsley]

6 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

One example of how I approach a name-change for an official villain is the Incubus (CV 3), the setting's Mr. Myxyzptlk analogue. His style and appearance have nothing to do with a mythic incubus, a sexually predatory demon, male counterpart to the succubus. But Steve Long has written that he just liked the sound of the name for this character. I wanted to keep that sound element, but make it more thematically appropriate. I ended up renaming him Impius, a play on both "imp" and "impious."

 

I had this exact same thought years ago!  I figured the author had to know what Incubus meant, but goodness, what a weird name for a prankster-type character.

[Killer Shrike]

2 hours ago, PamelaIsley said:

The strange thing is that his bio states that he has a sense of noblesse oblige and his ultimate goal is to convince the people of the world to join him.  That, um, clashes quite strongly with the name he deliberately chose (and I know the bio says he chose it to strike fear in people; the fact is that it isn't going to strike fear so much as just be radically offensive or at least stoke the anger of a large segment of the population he wants to control).

 

Agreed. 

 

Quote

I usually don't care about things like this.  And I certainly am not suggesting anyone else should.  It's just whenever I sit down to write out a possible campaign thread (and I do this a lot), I always rule him out (even though he is a much more flexible master villain than most others) because of this issue.  I think I'm going to use Gravitar in an Alliance-type situation even though it doesn't make quite as much sense.

 

If the name is the main concern, why not just rename him? 

 

For instance, I'm doing preproduction work now on retooling my version of the CU with a timeline reboot, and slowly framing out which published characters as well as which bits of my own various campaigns that I intend to retain in the rebooted timeline. Holocaust will be retained (with some tweaks) or at least an analogue based on him will, but I'm considering changing the name of the resulting character to Exigent.

[archer]

3 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

If the name is the main concern, why not just rename him? 

 

For instance, I'm doing preproduction work now on retooling my version of the CU with a timeline reboot, and slowly framing out which published characters as well as which bits of my own various campaigns that I intend to retain in the rebooted timeline. Holocaust will be retained (with some tweaks) or at least an analogue based on him will, but I'm considering changing the name of the resulting character to Exigent.

 

I find that I'm not particularly fond of a lot of superbeing names.

 

But since other people are making those names choices, I just chalk it up to everyone in the world except me being weird.