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Brian, for combat have you considered the conceptually easier: roll 3d6 + OCV vs. 11+DCV; equal or better = hit? I know it's a "roll high" check as opposed to the "roll low" check for skills, but it's easier for most people. Any disconnect between rolling low for one and high for the other that is  felt by the players will soon be forgotten, much more quickly than trying to memorise the official way. (Seriously, 30 years this year of playing and running HERO, still confuses the bejaysus outta me. Also, every player I've ever introduced to the game has been confused by it. Every, single, one.)

 

If you wind up going low fantasy and want to save yourself some work let me know and I'll share my Fantasy Hero Basic document with you. It's one you've seen before although I've made umpteen little changes (mostly typographical and some more comprehensive GM advice) since I last posted it.

 

As an aside: I would love to see some different HERO character sheets. I like the one that someone here created (sorry, can't remember who, maybe Tasha?) , the blue and yellow one. But I think it's still a bit too busy for a brand new player and doesn't, in a visual sense,  set  things out as I'd like.

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On 3/30/2019 at 8:42 AM, Brian Stanfield said:

So, this might be kinda repetitive, but what do y'all think is critical to teach people who are learning the game? I ask this because things like Presence attacks are totally unique, and I would probably forget to teach it if I didn't write it down in a list of things to teach. So, let's start a list of things that really ought to be taught to beginners (in no particular order, although a list in order of importance would be great too):

  • Presence attacks
  • skill rolls
  • attack rolls
  • damage rolls
  • allotment of skill levels each phase

What else is critical?

 

Anything you want to "teach" the players about, just use in game and explain it in context as it is happening.

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10 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

Brian, for combat have you considered the conceptually easier: roll 3d6 + OCV vs. 11+DCV; equal or better = hit? I know it's a "roll high" check as opposed to the "roll low" check for skills, but it's easier for most people.

 

I'm going to stick to the standard approach, but you've given me an idea about how to word it better. You know, you could just use OCV+11 vs DCV+3d6 and still roll under, unless you're specifically trying to eliminate the roll under mechanic.

 

I prefer giving them a target number to roll for because it gives a bit more dramatic tension. I don't like the 6e official version of OCV+11-3d6=DCV. It seems goofy to say, "Ok, here's the big moment, you need to hit this guy or all is lost. Roll 3d6 and we'll see if it's perhaps enough to hit" as opposed to "Ok, here's the big moment, you need to hit this guy or all is lost. Roll 13 or less!" So the OCV+11-DCV=3d6- seems to be the way to go (the way I learned it 35 years ago). 

 

But you're right, every single person who encounters this the first time sorta melts down at first: 3d6? roll under? wha? Do I modify the die roll, or the target number (that's the one that always gets me in any game--and I inevitably forget).

 

I'd love to see your Fantasy HERO Basic document. I may already have, since I started that thread a couple of years ago, but I only remember Xotl's document at this point. I'm thinking that, since everyone in my new group is familiar with fantasy, it may make more sense to teach them in a basic fantasy setting with low magic.

 

As for alternative character sheets, I haven't really tried yet to design anything different for HERO Designer yet. I need to bone up on the coding for that and fiddle with it, which puts it right around the bottom of my to-do list these days. Really, all I want is the standard 6e sheet but with base values and costs on the characteristics like they used to do.

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15 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I don't mind in either game telling players the target's DCV or AC.  I'd almost rather do that because if they're going against the same target, or same type of target (e.g. another agent or goblin), that number's not going to change.

 

I've had some GMs get really protective of their DCV or Armor Class or whatever, so the players don't know what it is. But my experience has been that after a couple of rolls the players usually figure it out anyway. I haven't seen it go sour, but I guess it could potentially steal away a bit of the tension: "Why can't I hit this guy?! What the heck is his DCV?!" would be a great bit of drama, but how often does that actually happen? Have you ever had it backfire on you to reveal the DCV ahead of the roll?

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9 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

I've had some GMs get really protective of their DCV or Armor Class or whatever, so the players don't know what it is. But my experience has been that after a couple of rolls the players usually figure it out anyway. I haven't seen it go sour, but I guess it could potentially steal away a bit of the tension: "Why can't I hit this guy?! What the heck is his DCV?!" would be a great bit of drama, but how often does that actually happen? Have you ever had it backfire on you to reveal the DCV ahead of the roll?

 

I usually keep DCV's unknown at first, but once the players have more or less figured it out, I divulge it. 

 

The reason is, knowing the target's DCV has a metagame impact on tactics. I like the feeling of the first Turn or so of combat being a feeling out process. When DCV's are known right off the bat, particularly low DCV's, players will optimize for that. 

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I like to be able to give characters with relevant knowledge skills an idea of competence before the fight begins.

 

For example "The big guy with the hammer looks as though he is only muscle but sheer power is worth being careful around, the guy to his right is the one to be careful of, he looks well-trained and might use the big guy as a distraction, probably right around the same level of ability as you and able to adapt to situations.  The other three are trained fighters but none of them as competent as you, they all know where the pointy end of the sword is and where to poke it."

 

If they have time to successfully make any kind of analysis roll, I am inclined to give game stats.

 

Doc

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I find OCV/DCV/MOCV/MDCV to be the most confusing terms for my new players.

 

If they eliminated CV completely and just used Offense / Defense / etc. there would probably be less confusion.

 

With the current games I ask the players to give me their adjusted OCV (base +/- maneuver and situational mods) and then tell them what number they're trying to beat.

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When it comes to OCV/DCV... I still think it is possible to start out. "You want to roll low for hitting... high for damage." Done. They roll, you tell them if they hit or succeeded.

 

Funny how "Stealth is 14 or less" never seems to cause problems, but rolling low to hit is a nightmare.

 

Then, if they want to know "How does it work?" then you can say something like. "Because we use 3d6, 11 is the median score you are likely to roll... So 11 is base and add your OCV you have your Attack number. Write that down. Now, going forward simply subtract what you roll and that tells you the Defense number you hit. So a low roll... subtracting less... leaves you with a higher remainder."   But do NOT say all this unless they ask, and only do it outside the game.

 

I've played with plenty of people who are happy with "I rolled X... did I hit?" and are ok with nothing more than that for years of gaming. They are ok with maneuvers, too... because they get the basics... "This maneuver means more damage, or puts the guy on his back, but there are penalties to hit... this other maneuver gives me bonuses to hit, but lower damage... etc."  That intuitive stuff comes quickly, as long as it isn't buried in formulas and numbers... at least in my experience.

Also, it has been said several times here (myself, Killer Shrike, Deglar) that I don't want it to get lost... I really REALLY think the best way for newbies is to "Just describe what you want to do... and then I'll talk about the rule that best captures that maneuver. You'll catch on to what the rules are doing as we use them."  And do the same yourself as GM. "The bandit sees you draw you sword and is attempting to slam his shield down on your sword arm. Basically he is trying to knock the sword out of your hand rather than really do damage, so this is a Disarm maneuver, which some characters have. If he hits, instead of doing damage he gets a bonus to his STR vs. STR roll to knock your sword away."

That should lead to things like, "I don't have Disarm... can I do that?" and "Yes, you can try, but since you are untrained, it will be harder to do. It defaults to a Grab roll then STR vs. STR without bonuses." (the idea that most answers to "Can I try that maneuver?" in HERO is "Yes... you just might not be very good at it based on your skills, etc." 

And hopefully this leads to, "Can my character learn Disarm?" and now we off and running. "Absolutely... that kind of thing is exactly what EXP is for. Your characters learn new skills and maneuvers and knowledge, especially in cases like this where there is good reason for him to train/learn this maneuver."


Story and description first... make it cool... then bring in the rules. Personally, I often try to emphasize that I prefer "the rules to be invisible." I much prefer a dramatic, descriptive statement than looking in the rule book. "As you play, you'll learn a lot of the basics and start to realize when certain maneuvers are better than others, but the rules should never over-rule what is dramatically appropriate."

 

That might not be your play style, but I certainly emphasize it in mine and have found new players tend to respond to that well.

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3 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

I've had some GMs get really protective of their DCV or Armor Class or whatever, so the players don't know what it is. But my experience has been that after a couple of rolls the players usually figure it out anyway. I haven't seen it go sour, but I guess it could potentially steal away a bit of the tension: "Why can't I hit this guy?! What the heck is his DCV?!" would be a great bit of drama, but how often does that actually happen? Have you ever had it backfire on you to reveal the DCV ahead of the roll?

My experience is that players who struggle with remembering to-hit mechanics are frequently doing so because they're feeling overloaded with information.  Giving them another number to keep track of has been counterproductive. 

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19 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I'm going to disagree with you here.  For the Champions game I tried last year, I asked them what they wanted and made the characters for them.  It would have completely fallen apart if I'd tried to hand them the books or even HD and had them create their own.  Too many options.  I'd say that pregens are probably best, followed by asking them what they want and building it for them.

 

Delete Me

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19 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I'm going to disagree with you here.  For the Champions game I tried last year, I asked them what they wanted and made the characters for them.  It would have completely fallen apart if I'd tried to hand them the books or even HD and had them create their own.  Too many options.  I'd say that pregens are probably best, followed by asking them what they want and building it for them.

 

 

I think I didn't state my argument correctly.  For a first time with Champions, I don't think pregens are necessary.  I think you should just give them a character sheet and not worry about points.  Just fill in the blanks as they formulize their characters and keep track of points as a side bit of info.

 

The idea would be, to ask what they would like to see in a heroic level character.  Someone from something like an action movie with no super powers (Indiana Jones, James Bond, Q, Bruce Lee, etc.) and help them stat it out.

 

So the first question you would ask the player is "What kind of character would you like to play?" and then guide how to build the character from that.  Because you are limiting it to heroic levels, this lets them just deal with stats, skills, and possibly martial arts.

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2 minutes ago, dsatow said:

 

I think I didn't state my argument correctly.  For a first time with Champions, I don't think pregens are necessary.  I think you should just give them a character sheet and not worry about points.  Just fill in the blanks as they formulize their characters and keep track of points as a side bit of info.

 

The idea would be, to ask what they would like to see in a heroic level character.  Someone from something like an action movie with no super powers (Indiana Jones, James Bond, Q, Bruce Lee, etc.) and help them stat it out.

 

So the first question you would ask the player is "What kind of character would you like to play?" and then guide how to build the character from that.

 

Ah, ok.  That's more or less what I tried with my group last year.  I think that can work, but the character concepts I got weren't exactly superhero material, which is why I think pregens would be better.  

 

Eventually the idea is to get them to the point where they can make their own characters, for sure.  

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9 minutes ago, dsatow said:

 

I think I didn't state my argument correctly.  For a first time with Champions, I don't think pregens are necessary.  I think you should just give them a character sheet and not worry about points.  Just fill in the blanks as they formulize their characters and keep track of points as a side bit of info.

 

The idea would be, to ask what they would like to see in a heroic level character.  Someone from something like an action movie with no super powers (Indiana Jones, James Bond, Q, Bruce Lee, etc.) and help them stat it out.

 

So the first question you would ask the player is "What kind of character would you like to play?" and then guide how to build the character from that.  Because you are limiting it to heroic levels, this lets them just deal with stats, skills, and possibly martial arts.

 

Totally get where you are going with this... I've just had way more success with this as Step 2, rather than Step 1. Get a game or two under their belts with a pre-gen, hand-over character. Some players immediately start to grok it and  want to build their own... others may never want to... they stick to "I want a character who basically does X & Y... and feel this way and that... and..." and then I build it.

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39 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

And by the way, I've run out of "likes" for the day, the last two days. So if I don't react to your post, "thanks" just the same! I'll give you all a blanket "like" and try to keep up as much as I can. Thanks so much for the input!

 

You can run out of likes??

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I guess I live in a bubble. 

I usually don't have issue with players having problems with the actual play rules.  In game to hit, OCV, DCV, etc and such.  Heroes play rules are pretty simple.  Far more simple than Pathfinder or Shadowrun.

 

The major problem I see it players bail during chargen.  The system can build anything.  But if the new player has had zero exposure to the game in play, it is really difficult for them to apply the build rules in constructing a concept.

 

Run them through a simple session with pregens so they can experience the game in actual play. THEN they will be ready to be guided through a build.

 

Just an opinion.

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On 3/31/2019 at 2:03 PM, dsatow said:

 

2)  Is it best to start with pre-gen characters?

I don't think so.  Character creation is a big plus in the game for players.

 

I absolutely agree that character creation is a big plus--in fact, one of the greatest strengths of the Hero System is that within point budget limits, you can pretty much create ANYTHING you can imagine, if you know how to work the system.

 

There's the rub, though: new players don't know how to work the system. New players will understand what the numbers MEAN a lot better after a session with a well-crafted pregen.

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15 hours ago, Spence said:

The major problem I see it players bail during chargen.  The system can build anything.  But if the new player has had zero exposure to the game in play, it is really difficult for them to apply the build rules in constructing a concept.

 

Run them through a simple session with pregens so they can experience the game in actual play. THEN they will be ready to be guided through a build.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you, although I don't have any experience yet other than remembering my own attempt to learn the game. The Character Creation Cards could really help minimize the trouble here, but I'm more likely going to start with a heroic campaign of some sort. Even if it's fantasy (which is starting to seem inevitable given my group's preferences), I'm going to keep magic low, and work with a pre-set list of spells. I'm going to generate their first characters so there is no worry about balance issues, etc., and to give them a baseline to work from for when they are ready to create their own characters.

 

Most importantly I want them to be at least a little familiar with the rules before they try to create characters. Although I like that 6e de-coupled characteristics, it lends itself to a new problem: what should a new character spend points on in each of the areas that once were pre-set as calculated characteristics? How useful is OMCV? or EPD? It's impossible to know from the outset, so a little bit of game experience could help explain these characteristics a little bit better. 

 

After a couple of games I'll offer some starting ranges for characteristics, and chaperone them through their char-gen process as a group and also individually. At least that's the plan so far . . . 

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12 hours ago, Zeropoint said:

I absolutely agree that character creation is a big plus--in fact, one of the greatest strengths of the Hero System is that within point budget limits, you can pretty much create ANYTHING you can imagine, if you know how to work the system.

 

There's the rub, though: new players don't know how to work the system. New players will understand what the numbers MEAN a lot better after a session with a well-crafted pregen.

 

Exactly. I tried to teach HERO System to a buddy of mine, an experienced gamer for years, but I didn't do a very good job of soft-starting the process. It led to a whole discussion as a result: 

What I discovered was that, without a tightly defined set of limits from the outset, like guidelines for characteristics, etc., the possibilities were too vast and paralyzing for even an experienced gamer. I tried to do some damage control by limiting things to Fantasy Hero Complete, but by that point there were just too many numbers flying around for him to understand for the char-gen process. Again, they've changed the character sheets for 6e to not include starting base values and costs (like they did in every edition before), which is flabbergasting to me.

 

So, if I create some decent pre-gens and let them play around with the rules a bit through game play, hopefully it'll become more natural to them when it comes time to create their own characters. 

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12 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

Fantasy Hero Basic_6thed.pdf 3.94 MB · 3 downloads

 

Hi Brian.

 

I've uploaded my beginners guide for fantasy hero.

 

Feel free to use any, all, or none of it for your own group.

 

Cheers.

 

Just read the whole thing.  It's great.

 

It could benefit from a little artwork, but content wise it is excellent.  I will share with my groups immediately.

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7 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

Just read the whole thing.  It's great.

 

It could benefit from a little artwork, but content wise it is excellent.  I will share with my groups immediately.

 

Aww shucks. Thanks.

 

Yeah, art wise, wellllllll... ya gotta go with royalty-free, ya know?

 

When I was looking I saw plenty of great art that would have filled many of my white spots. Including quite a few fine frog-folk and dwarves, and of course squillions of elves. Oh, so many elves. What is it about elves that they provoke so much character art?

 

But of course I couldn't use that in good conscience.

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