Guidelines Block Range Attack

[Hugh Neilson]

4 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

The Thing isn't missile deflecting, he is creating a barrier out of the environment. In almost every example, the beam is one of those "constant attacks" that has already struck, and he is pulling up the ground to put a barrier in between him and it. In no way does Ben see the energy blast coming and THEN bend over, rip up the road, and somehow get it in front of the beam before it ever reaches him. Ben doesn't have Missile Deflection, he is either "just using the environment" like picking up a bus to hit someone doesn't require special powers on the sheet... more maybe Ben's player does have a "Strength Tricks" power pool that allows for impromptu Barrier use. Either way, this isn't Missile Deflection.

 

Benjy was quick enough to rip up the pavement as Quicksilver charged him so his momentum carried him up in the air where he had no mobility.  I am pretty sure he has done this with other Blasters, like the Torch, in the past.

 

2 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

You are putting words in my mouth about what I want or not. And the realism argument is the worst. You are suddenly going to say Joe Schmoe has an improbably chance, but should get that chance... when a) the worst odds Joe Schmoe has are 1 in 216 which is unrealistically high... and b) you ignore other "realisms" for the sake of one very improbably realism... i.e. the realism of "even if he did get his hand in the way, it would still likely blow through, or it was too fast, big, heavy to stop, etc."   By assuming one "realism" of "he should have a chance" you've opened up the glaring unrealism of it all, which again defeats the axiomatic action adventure basis here.

 

We already have varying levels of "realism".  Anyone can Block a knife, a sword or Wolverine's adamantium claws.  Shouldn't that be at least similarly injurious to most characters' hands?  [RAW does provide for penalties - see below]

 

I would go one step further and say that you CAN block both ranged and non-ranged attacks.  That one has always grated on me.

 

2 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

It would be much easier to do as I said above, have certain itesm (shields, whatever)... grant Joe Schmoe the base level of Missile Deflection... because that's what a shield was for. If Joe doens't have WF: Shield, he is at -3 to do it. Just like a tennis racket grants Missile Deflection/Reflection, only vs. tennis ball like objects... and requires a Weapon Fam: Tennis Racket or at -3 to attempt.

 

That's just bad game design.  Why should I have to decide which objects are sufficiently tennis ball like to be affected?  Is a baseball OK?  A badminton birdie isn't even round!  What about a football?  American or European?  How about a thrown pillow?

 

Do I need WF: Tennis Racket, or can a badminton player use a tennis racket as well?  A lacrosse player?  What about squash?  Clearly handball is out!  What about a ping pong paddle?  A baseball bat?  Are there weapon groups for sporting equipment?  Which WFs does high school phys ed grant as an Everyman skill?

 

Just bad game design!

 

1 hour ago, RDU Neil said:

Because "to hit" in HERO is a defined matter of OCV vs. DCV or OCV vs. OCV... not a matter of skill roll modifiers.

 

Seems to me there are a lot of OCV and DCV modifiers, many of which require some GM judgement (surprise maneuver, for example).

 

1 hour ago, RDU Neil said:

If I'm supposed to be adding modifiers to the OCV vs. OCV of a Missile Deflect effectively I'm saying "Has X OCV to hit, but X+Y OCV for avoiding block" which has NEVER been how Block is defined. 

 

You never say, "You are going to Block? Ok... roll to hit an 19 OCV?"  And the players are like, "He has a 19 OCV?"   and you reply, "Oh, no, he has an 8 OCV, but I'm giving him +11 vs. being blocked because his fist is really small and fast and hard to see... oh, and do you have gauntlets on, 'cause you can't block unless you have gauntlets on"... 

 

... that would never be the case with Block... but that is exactly how Missile Deflect is being handled now, in an attempt to make it "more consistent"with Block.

 

And we're back to situational realism.  I don't need gauntlets to block a sword, or a tiger's claws, or an elephant trampling me, but I need a special power to bat a thrown rock away with a stick?
 

Although the rules already tell me that "If appropriate, the GM can assign a penalty (-1 to -3) to Block if one character is using a melee weapon and the other is not (in other words, he’s performing an unarmed Block against an
armed opponent, trying to use his bare hands to stop a weapon)." - isn't that also requiring me, the GM, to assess what, if any, penalty is appropriate?

 

1 hour ago, RDU Neil said:

"Well, if those modifiers apply to Missile Deflect, what about when the martial artist just blocks Zippy the Shrinking Man who flies really fast and does a lot of move-throughs... he is small and hard to see and moves fast... shouldn't the Block have massive modifiers?"

 

But I can Block Zippy's Move Through when I can't block a ranged attack from a projectile of a similar size, moving at a similar speed.  Why is that not just as much a problem for "realism" and "not everyone can do that"?

 

And, again, RAW requires the GM assess whether I can "perceive" Zippy's attack, so again we need a GM judgment call.

 

One cinematic solution to your dilemma is "everyone can block ranged and HTH attacks".  Add a penalty - one size fits all so one penalty number - for Blocking ranged attacks, if you wish, and allow a bonus for using an object especially suitable to Block the incoming attack and oh, look - we're done.  Very cinematic, and Block for ranged attacks is now pretty much the same as Block for HTH attacks.  Missile Deflection is now as simple as enough PSLs to offset your standard penalty for Blocking a ranged attack.

 

1 hour ago, RDU Neil said:

Let's look at it from the POV of a character who is a superhero type who SHOULD be able to Missile Deflect with relative ease. In the past, Ninja-Star only needed to buy the level of Deflect that she felt appropriate... then in those situations, she gets a straight up OCV vs. OCV roll.  Simple.  Under 6th, Ninja-Star has to say, "Hey, GM... what is the max possible minuses you'd give me to deflect arrows, missiles, bullets..." and assuming the GM could provide an answer, she'd have to buy Skill Levels enough to offset the max possible penalties in order to make her character concept work? And she HAS to have a focus of some sort now?

 

Again, by saying it is "realistic" to allow it for everyone, you are by default making what used to be a simple, very common superheroic ability much more difficult and crunchy and arbitrary.

 

Or you simply rule that no focus is needed.  "The GM may require"  To the penalty question, will you also commit what DEX I need to act first every time for the whole campaign, or the OCV I need to always hit?  Missile Deflection was "Block for ranged attacks", so to know I would have reliable missile deflection, I always needed to know the maximum OCV, and account for the possibility of multiple attacks.

 

Deflection would also solve part of the problem, as it removes any requirement to have an object.  Maybe you even buy it No Range - he can only deflect an attack in close proximity to him.

 

It really feels like you are just looking for reasons to dislike the rule.

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh what penalty would you apply? Which was my original question. And a second (which I haven’t asked yet) how to you make create an item that can Block a sfx that is ruled Impossible , I.e no penalties. So in my original example Magic is defined as Impossible to Block-Range. I want a Shield to Block-Range. Use Transform- one sfx into another sfx?

[Chris Goodwin]

In real life, some people can Block some projectiles -- assuming we're defining "hit the ball with the bat" and similar activities as a use of the Block maneuver.  Typically the people who can do that are skilled via training (baseball, tennis, or hockey players) and the projectiles they can Block are slow-moving and fairly large (muscle powered or similar).  Some people can, under extremely controlled circumstances and with great training, Block bullets, or at least appear to; the magician's bullet-catching trick has resulted in deaths, so we can stipulate that that's a real thing (but not something that can be done regularly in combat).  People's ability to do this seems to be based mostly on training with some natural aptitude (DEX? CV?), which in the game we'd represent by paying points.  

 

In most fiction the HERO System intends to emulate, some people can Block some projectiles.  From 1st through 5th editions, typically the people who can do that have bought some kind of special ability to do so.  The Missile Deflection Power had an increasing cost depending on the types of projectiles the person could Block: 5 points for thrown objects, 10 points for arrows and similar projectiles, 15 points for bullets and shrapnel, and 20 points for everything -- up to and including lasers, tachyon beams, and so on.  1st through 3rd editions gave Powers more implied special effects for genre simulation; Powers there were more explicitly "things superheroes can do" with limited exceptions for building weapons, and Missile Deflection also was its own Power in 1-3e with its own rules for use, rather than using the Block mechanic, but I'll stipulate that it's close enough.  Missile Deflection, especially in 1-3e, was strongly implied to be what you used to represent Captain America's shield, Wonder Woman's bracelets, the Jedi's ability to block blaster bolts with their lightsaber and the Force.

 

Sixth edition got a little more... gooey, as regards Blocking and ranged attacks.  

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Benjy was quick enough to rip up the pavement as Quicksilver charged him so his momentum carried him up in the air where he had no mobility.  I am pretty sure he has done this with other Blasters, like the Torch, in the past.

 

Did the Thing buy Missile Deflection in his 1st through 5th edition incarnations?  If this was a thing (NPI) he did regularly, then I'd say yes.  I'd assume he'd have to buy something in 6e to do that as well.

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

That's just bad game design.  Why should I have to decide which objects are sufficiently tennis ball like to be affected?  Is a baseball OK?  A badminton birdie isn't even round!  What about a football?  American or European?  How about a thrown pillow?

 

Do I need WF: Tennis Racket, or can a badminton player use a tennis racket as well?  A lacrosse player?  What about squash?  Clearly handball is out!  What about a ping pong paddle?  A baseball bat?  Are there weapon groups for sporting equipment?  Which WFs does high school phys ed grant as an Everyman skill?

 

Just bad game design!

 

In 1-5e it was made pretty clear.  I'm not sure where the "Just bad game design!" is you're talking about...

 

But presumably skilled tennis players, baseball players, and so on, have spent points on something to represent their skill at their game?  In the same way that wrestlers have spent points on their fighting ability?  And runners have spent points on their abilities?  And... and... and... 

 

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

But I can Block Zippy's Move Through when I can't block a ranged attack from a projectile of a similar size, moving at a similar speed.  Why is that not just as much a problem for "realism" and "not everyone can do that"?

 

And, again, RAW requires the GM assess whether I can "perceive" Zippy's attack, so again we need a GM judgment call.

 

One cinematic solution to your dilemma is "everyone can block ranged and HTH attacks".  Add a penalty - one size fits all so one penalty number - for Blocking ranged attacks, if you wish, and allow a bonus for using an object especially suitable to Block the incoming attack and oh, look - we're done.  Very cinematic, and Block for ranged attacks is now pretty much the same as Block for HTH attacks.  Missile Deflection is now as simple as enough PSLs to offset your standard penalty for Blocking a ranged attack.

 

We assume a starting point for player characters and their antagonist equivalents.  We use some common sense for who can do what.  

 

Can Aunt May Block a punch?  Does it matter if that punch is from a normal or from Galactus?  Common sense says no, and I'm pretty comfortable with that.  In most of her depictions she has one or more Disadvantages/Complications to the effect of "frail and elderly" and I'm fine with it being assumed that her inability to Block regular attacks is part of that.  Likewise, can a baby Block a punch, or drive a car, or go to work and earn a living?  Physical Limitation: Baby assumes they don't have the Everyman TF: Car, PS: Job (11-), or even 4 points in their native language.  

 

Can somebody do something (edit) most people (/edit) can't?  If so, then they pay points for it.  In 1e through 5er, Blocking ranged attacks was one of those things.  In 6th edition?  That's what this thread is about.  (edit)  Can somebody not do something most people can?  That's a limitation of some kind.  A Complication, Disadvantage, Limited Power, etc. (/edit)

[Scott Ruggels]

5 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

I would probably allow a variation of my limited-armor-stacking scheme and do:

• +1 rPD/ +1 rED for Medium Shield - requires abort or held action
• +2 rPD / +2 rED for Large Shield - requires abort or held action

 

If you wanted the move to be more effective you might replace it with a variation like this:

• 25% resistant damage reduction (PD/ED) for Medium Shield with a successful block roll
• 50% resistant damage reduction (PD/ED) for Large Shield with a successful block roll

 From my experience running  FH< I am always a little leery of Damage Reduction, and instead use Focus based 0 END Forcewall,  for most applications like that.Only if the shield breaks does damage get through (though minus is's regular PD/ ED subtraction.

[Chris Goodwin]

52 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Or you simply rule that no focus is needed.  "The GM may require"  To the penalty question, will you also commit what DEX I need to act first every time for the whole campaign, or the OCV I need to always hit?  Missile Deflection was "Block for ranged attacks", so to know I would have reliable missile deflection, I always needed to know the maximum OCV, and account for the possibility of multiple attacks.

 

Deflection would also solve part of the problem, as it removes any requirement to have an object.  Maybe you even buy it No Range - he can only deflect an attack in close proximity to him.

 

It really feels like you are just looking for reasons to dislike the rule.

 

I honestly haven't seen any reasons to like it so far.  Not any more since the last time we went round and round on it.

[Scott Ruggels]

5 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

True, but that last one really hurts.  Being 1/2 DCV for an extended period is a real liability.

 

 

Barriers are an interesting item for Fantasy Hero.  I've forced the players to make a DEX roll to successfully abort to Barrier as a defense.  Otherwise it's just TOO effective.  I've also applied an armor-stacking mechanic to barriers to prevent them from reducing damage to virtually nothing.

 

Example:  Plate Armor Man (8 rPD/ 8 PD) is behind the Barrier( 7 PD, 3 bod) that Earth Mage has thrown up.  The Tectonic Dragon breathes a shower of deadly rock shards (4d6k) at Plate Armor Man.  The roll is (14 BOD / 28 STUN).

Do you...

1-  Remove 10 BOD / 10 STUN as the attack annihilates the barrier and apply 4 BOD / 18 STUN against Plate Armor Man's defenses resulting in 0 BOD / 2 STUN taken?

OR

2-  Remove 10 BOD / 10 STUN as the attack annihilates the barrier and apply 4 BOD / 18 STUN against the stackable portion of Plate Armor Man's defenses (2 rPD) and apply 2 BOD / 16 STUN?

 

 

I used encumbrance to  keep the walking tanks  from being too common in my FH games   Adding a shield ads to encumbrance, so  the standard was  about a 6 rPD- 5 to 15 chain hauberk,  2-4 8 rPD  plate helm, 8-10 rPD forcewall*. shield with plusses to block depending on the size, so that most fighters in my games tended to resemble those in the Bayeux Tapestry. Of course Magic Armor  would give greater protection, but armor in my game was sectional. So they would find Helmets, bracers, greaves, gauntlets, and rarely chest plates.  when they got up to a certain level, that's when I sent 22-25 STR, civilized monsters, with one lvl, of growth, and 25% Damage reduction, because they were big (and fast). Just to keep the level of challenge up XD>

 

*remember this was 2nd-3rd edition rules.

[Scott Ruggels]

 Worst cased scenario in FH. Massed archery.  

[Edited to replace link with a better clip of the film. More context.]

 

This is why large shields were barriers.  Though for "blow through" the arrows would not destroy the shield, but the bearer would take damage. Multiple blow throughs would, at one BOD per blow through, so once all the BOD was gone, the shield just crumbled off his arm. BOD would usually be defined by shield size multiplier X the rPD (Bucklers and round shields x.5, "heaters" x1.  Norman shields, or a scutum  X1.5. )

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Scott Ruggels
[Edited to replace link with a better clip of the film. More context.]

[Netzilla]

I don't think anyone is arguing that everyone has to like it.  I think folks are arguing about how reasonable it is to allow unarmed blocking of ranged attacks.  Unsurprisingly most folks mileage varies.  The other main argument is whether or not allowing the unpurchased ability to block ranged attacks has somehow ruined the game or made it unplayable or is just plain bad game design.  All 3 claims have been made and I say they're all vastly overstating the situation; just like with the hyperbolic arguments about the removal of COM or the decoupling of figured chars.

 

Take out all the hyperbole and aggressive attitudes and we could have a reasonable discussion about what the original poster wanted: how do you, as an individual GM, handle the situation?  If you don't like it, you can simply post, "I don't like it and don't allow it" and them move on to allow other GMs to have their say.  This whole argument seems rather pointless as 6e's been out for 10 years already.

 

To address the OP's question:

Currently, I'm running a 6E Golden Age supers game and allow blocking ranged attacks.  To me, the fact that someone with quick enough reflexes can grab a book off a table to stop a thrown knife seems reasonable for a game emulating golden age comics.  They just have to deal with the -2 penalty I'll assess them for it.  If they tried it bare-handed, I'd make it -4.  If it were a bullet, I'd rule it unreasonable (bare-handed or with a book; use something more resilient and we'll discuss modifiers).  My base penalty for blocking a ranged attack bare-handed will be, at a minimum, -4.  That would be for blocking low-velocity weapon bare-handed.  Catching a non-weapon (a baseball) would be easier.  Blocking something high-velocity would be harder if not impossible. 

 

Like many things in GMing, I make rulings on the spot based on circumstances.  I'm a game judge so I use my judgement and haven't found doing so onerous or game-braking in any way.

[Toxxus]

31 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I used encumbrance to  keep the walking tanks  from being too common in my FH games   Adding a shield ads to encumbrance, so  the standard was  about a 6 rPD- 5 to 15 chain hauberk,  2-4 8 rPD  plate helm, 8-10 rPD forcewall*. shield with plusses to block depending on the size, so that most fighters in my games tended to resemble those in the Bayeux Tapestry. Of course Magic Armor  would give greater protection, but armor in my game was sectional. So they would find Helmets, bracers, greaves, gauntlets, and rarely chest plates.  when they got up to a certain level, that's when I sent 22-25 STR, civilized monsters, with one lvl, of growth, and 25% Damage reduction, because they were big (and fast). Just to keep the level of challenge up XD>

 

I've gone with a hybrid of 4th edition Encumbrance rules where if the players strength is high enough they can remove 1 level of penalties.  Anything after that I attribute to weight & bulk and they have to deal with it.

 

My Wednesday night team has a strange mix of a true tank (full plate, big shield, martial strikes every round to get +2 DCV) and is usually sitting at 8rPD, 8PD, 12 DCV, 6 OCV.

The "backup" tank is wearing heavy plate 9rPD, 8PD and dual wielding.  He's generally at 2 DCV (yes, two) and 10 OCV due to armor penalties.  The small shots fall away like rain drops, but the big bads drop him constantly.  It's not a *real* encounter until Scrappy is KO'd.

 

Anyway, interesting take on the shield-as-barrier idea.  So against a big bad like a dragon pulsing out 4d6k or 3d6k armor piercing the shield would most likely be destroyed on the first use as a barrier.

 

Do you remove the DCV bonus when the shield as used as a barrier so that if the character is attacked from the sides or back they don't benefit from the shield?

[Scott Ruggels]

3 minutes ago, Toxxus said:

Anyway, interesting take on the shield-as-barrier idea.  So against a big bad like a dragon pulsing out 4d6k or 3d6k armor piercing the shield would most likely be destroyed on the first use as a barrier.

 

Do you remove the DCV bonus when the shield as used as a barrier so that if the character is attacked from the sides or back they don't benefit from the shield?

 

 

Correct, when in Barrier,  the player declares facing (moces his minature/Cardboard hero), and is for all intents an purposes "Braced", so apply negative modifiers to DCV as needed, but generally I had them at half DCV, for off axis attacks the same phase.

 

As for the dragon, yeah. The shield is a one shot "Get out of Damage, free" card. ajd then the hero shakes the flaming pieces of the shiield off his arm and looks the dragon in the eye, and....  (waits for the other players to dog pile on the dragon). Dragons were fairly common in my old Campaign, and they learn too, so many got quite adept at dropping large rocks from great heights, rather than use up their breath weapons to soon (or would allow a couple/three maountaed archers to ride on their backs).

[Ninja-Bear]

Netzilla how do you handle then say someone wanting Bracers in the Golden Age Supers to Block anything like Wonder Woman? Do you asses a Penalty for the purpose of buying off OCV? For example even if impossible, assign -5 OCV figure out Levels Or then do you switch to buying Deflection? 

[Chris Goodwin]

25 minutes ago, Netzilla said:

I don't think anyone is arguing that everyone has to like it.  I think folks are arguing about how reasonable it is to allow unarmed blocking of ranged attacks.  Unsurprisingly most folks mileage varies.  The other main argument is whether or not allowing the unpurchased ability to block ranged attacks has somehow ruined the game or made it unplayable or is just plain bad game design.  All 3 claims have been made and I say they're all vastly overstating the situation; just like with the hyperbolic arguments about the removal of COM or the decoupling of figured chars.

 

 

We had five editions where if you wanted to block ranged attacks you had to pay points.  We also had a couple of instances, before 4th edition came out, where the answer was "It depends."  Fantasy Hero, with shields vs. arrows, for instance.  

 

Now, the answer is completely "It depends."  Depends on what?   (This is supposed to be a universal system, right?)

 

I'm with Ninja-Bear.  He asked, what do you need to do if you want to do it reliably?  He asked me, in fact, and my answer was:  most likely, buy Deflection at no range.  Because in 6th edition, Deflection is the thing you buy if you want to Block ranged attacks, at range, without "it depends".  

 

But then why do Wonder Woman and Captain America and Yoda pay points to buy Deflection to deflect bullets and lasers, when it depends?  

[Netzilla]

29 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Netzilla how do you handle then say someone wanting Bracers in the Golden Age Supers to Block anything like Wonder Woman? Do you asses a Penalty for the purpose of buying off OCV? For example even if impossible, assign -5 OCV figure out Levels Or then do you switch to buying Deflection? 

 

Like many things in the Hero System, there's more than one way.  Personally, I'd have them buy PSLs vs OCV penalties to Block Ranged Attacks through an OIF.  So, something like this:

+4 to offset OCV modifier Block vs Ranged Attacks (4 Active Points); OIF (bracers; -1/2)

That allows the character to block thrown weapons at no penalty so long as they're wearing the Bracers.  For my campaign, if you want absolute ranged attack blocking with no chance of failure ever, I'll tell you that you can't buy it because it's over the top.  Maybe I'd allow it if you gave it an appropriate weakness, not unlike Desolid has.  If you want no penalty to block bullets, 8 levels seems reasonable.  You want to block mad scientist ray guns, well, in genre they really don't seem much harder to block than most other guns, so 8 levels probably works there as well.

[Netzilla]

25 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

We had five editions where if you wanted to block ranged attacks you had to pay points.  We also had a couple of instances, before 4th edition came out, where the answer was "It depends."  Fantasy Hero, with shields vs. arrows, for instance.  

 

Now, the answer is completely "It depends."  Depends on what?   (This is supposed to be a universal system, right?)

 

 

I'm not sure how what you've written here applies to the part of my post you quoted.  Are you arguing that this broke the game?  Did it make it unplayable?  Are you saying it's bad game design?  Are you simply saying that you don't like it so you don't use it and so we can all just move on?

[Netzilla]

33 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I'm with Ninja-Bear.  He asked, what do you need to do if you want to do it reliably?  He asked me, in fact, and my answer was:  most likely, buy Deflection at no range.  Because in 6th edition, Deflection is the thing you buy if you want to Block ranged attacks, at range, without "it depends".  

 

But then why do Wonder Woman and Captain America and Yoda pay points to buy Deflection to deflect bullets and lasers, when it depends?   

 

Depends on what you mean by reliably.  How many levels with the Dodge maneuver do you need to be able to Dodge reliably?

 

They need to pay points to buy Deflection if they want to do those things at range.  If they want to block those things within arm's reach, they don't need Deflection.  They need justification (such as bracers, a shield or a lightsaber) and (if they want to be good at it) CSLs or PSLs.

[Chris Goodwin]

5 minutes ago, Netzilla said:

Depends on what you mean by reliably.  How many levels with the Dodge maneuver do you need to be able to Dodge reliably?

 

They need to pay points to buy Deflection if they want to do those things at range.  If they want to block those things within arm's reach, they don't need Deflection.  They need justification (such as bracers, a shield or a lightsaber) and (possibly) CSLs or PSLs.

 

"It depends."  

 

Wonder Woman blocks bullets with her bracelets.  That is a thing she does.  

 

Captain America blocks all kinds of things with his shield.  That is a thing he does.  

 

Yoda, and other Force users, block lasers with their lightsaber.  Other people in the Star Wars setting don't do that.

 

Most people in those settings don't do those things.  

 

What do Wonder Woman, Captain America, and Yoda, buy so that they can do those things, that other people can't?

 

6 minutes ago, Netzilla said:

They need justification

 

There, that.  How much does that cost?  

 

Han Solo can't pick up a lightsaber and deflect lasers.  Yoda can.  What does Yoda buy that gives him "justification"?  

 

Robin can't put on shiny metal bracelets and deflect bullets.  What does Wonder Woman buy that lets her do that?  

 

Most people in the Marvel universe couldn't pick up Cap's shield and deflect Thor's hammer, or bullets, or lasers.  What does Cap buy that lets him do that?

[Netzilla]

2 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

"It depends."  

 

Wonder Woman blocks bullets with her bracelets.  That is a thing she does.  

 

Captain America blocks all kinds of things with his shield.  That is a thing he does.  

 

Yoda, and other Force users, block lasers with their lightsaber.  Other people in the Star Wars setting don't do that.

 

Most people in those settings don't do those things.  

 

What do Wonder Woman, Captain America, and Yoda, buy so that they can do those things, that other people can't?

 

Asked and answered: justification (a blocking device) and (if they want to be good at it) levels. 

[Chris Goodwin]

1 minute ago, Netzilla said:

 

Asked and answered: justification (a blocking device) and (if they want to be good at it) levels. 

 

Han Solo can't pick up a lightsaber and deflect lasers.  Yoda can.  What does Yoda buy that gives him "justification"?  

 

Robin can't put on shiny metal bracelets and deflect bullets.  What does Wonder Woman buy that lets her do that?  

 

Most people in the Marvel universe couldn't pick up Cap's shield and deflect Thor's hammer, or bullets, or lasers.  What does Cap buy that lets him do that?

[Chris Goodwin]

And as Ninja Bear asked, how many levels?  Does it take fewer levels to deflect knives than it does to deflect arrows, than to deflect bullets, than to deflect lasers?  

 

[Netzilla]

12 minutes ago, Netzilla said:

 

Depends on what you mean by reliably.  How many levels with the Dodge maneuver do you need to be able to Dodge reliably?

 

They need to pay points to buy Deflection if they want to do those things at range.  If they want to block those things within arm's reach, they don't need Deflection.  They need justification (such as bracers, a shield or a lightsaber) and (if they want to be good at it) CSLs or PSLs.

 

7 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

There, that.  How much does that cost?  

 

Han Solo can't pick up a lightsaber and deflect lasers.  Yoda can.  What does Yoda buy that gives him "justification"?  

 

Robin can't put on shiny metal bracelets and deflect bullets.  What does Wonder Woman buy that lets her do that?  

 

Most people in the Marvel universe couldn't pick up Cap's shield and deflect Thor's hammer, or bullets, or lasers.  What does Cap buy that lets him do that?

 

Again, asked and answered.  When has justification ever cost anything?

 

Han Solo can try but he's likely to fail as he doesn't have WF Lightsaber nor force powers to boost his OCV like Yoda does.

Robin can try.  Again he's likely to fail as he doesn't have a WF with the bracelets (seeing as how he didn't buy them, I feel this is a reasonable call for a WF).

Most people in the Marvel Universe can try (though they couln't pick up Thor's hammer, much less block with it) but they're likely to fail as they don't have near Cap's OCV nor the correct WF (see above regarding the bracelets).

 

It literally takes me longer to type these out than it does to make these GM calls.

[Netzilla]

2 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

And as Ninja Bear asked, how many levels?  Does it take fewer levels to deflect knives than it does to deflect arrows, than to deflect bullets, than to deflect lasers?  

 

Again asked and answered if you've been reading the thread:

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

Just now, Netzilla said:

 

 

Again, asked and answered.  When has justification ever cost anything?

 

Han Solo can try but he's likely to fail as he doesn't have WF Lightsaber nor force powers to boost his OCV like Yoda does.

Robin can try.  Again he's likely to fail as he doesn't have a WF with the bracelets (seeing as how he didn't buy them, I feel this is a reasonable call for a WF).

Most people in the Marvel Universe can try (though they couln't pick up Thor's hammer, much less block with it) but they're likely to fail as they don't have near Cap's OCV nor the correct WF (see above regarding the bracelets).

 

It literally takes me longer to type these out than it does to make these GM calls.

 

So, that's all it takes?  A 1-point weapon familiarity and someone can block lasers?  

 

Yoda has a power that lets him deflect lasers.  Wonder Woman has a power that lets her deflect bullets.  Cap's shield is a power.   Small-p power, but they used to be big-P Powers.  It used to cost 5 points to be able to block thrown knives; 10 points to block arrows; 15 points to block bullets; 20 points to block lasers.  

 

But now it's 1 point?  

[Netzilla]

Anyway, I'm done with this particular tangent as it's now gotten to the point where I'm having to quote my own posts to avoid having to type the same things over and over again.

 

NinjaBear (or anyone else wanting to discuss the original topic), I'll be happy to answer further questions.

[Ninja-Bear]

I would’ve thought that in HSMA under character guidelines for the various Power or Subgenres there would have been suggestions at what penalty be appropriate.

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Hugh what penalty would you apply? Which was my original question. And a second (which I haven’t asked yet) how to you make create an item that can Block a sfx that is ruled Impossible , I.e no penalties. So in my original example Magic is defined as Impossible to Block-Range. I want a Shield to Block-Range. Use Transform- one sfx into another sfx?

 

First, I would be inclined to start with a consideration of the specific campaign.  In some, it may be appropriate to assess no penalty.  In others, a standard penalty may be appropriate.  A massive penalty would suggest this is a special ability you must spend points to be effective with.  I'd also discuss it with the players or, at a minimum, ensure they are aware of the specific ground rules for this campaign.

 

How do you do the impossible?  What power do you buy to exceed campaign maxima?  If, in this game, magic cannot be blocked, then it cannot be blocked - done.  But if it can be blocked, then I would have determined how, and what cost.  Perhaps that means you need Deflection.  Maybe it means you need a magical shield that you will have to quest for.  Perhaps you must learn the special crafting technique to craft a shield which can block magic. 

 

You may as well ask, generically, how do I buy magical powers.  In a fantasy game, it depends on the magic system.  In a gritty western, you don't - they don't exist.  Same for most sci fi.  In Supers, it's one SFX of many.

 

5 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

In real life, some people can Block some projectiles -- assuming we're defining "hit the ball with the bat" and similar activities as a use of the Block maneuver. 

 

Why would we define it that way?  Blocking does not do knockback.  An old Adventurers Club set out size and velocity-based DCV, then ran the example of trying to hit a baseball.  Well, the batter is Braced, knows about where it will be (what are the rules for that?) and likely has skill levels with batting.

 

5 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Typically the people who can do that are skilled via training (baseball, tennis, or hockey players) and the projectiles they can Block are slow-moving and fairly large (muscle powered or similar). 

 

I have seen few people who cannot hit the ball on occasion.  That suggests Everyman, does it not?

 

5 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

In most fiction the HERO System intends to emulate, some people can Block some projectiles.  From 1st through 5th editions, typically the people who can do that have bought some kind of special ability to do so.  The Missile Deflection Power had an increasing cost depending on the types of projectiles the person could Block: 5 points for thrown objects, 10 points for arrows and similar projectiles, 15 points for bullets and shrapnel, and 20 points for everything -- up to and including lasers, tachyon beams, and so on. 

 

Begging the question why a laser was not more expensive than a bullet, and that more costly than arrows or thrown objects.  Don't we pay for benefits, and not special effects, in Hero?

 

5 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

In 1-5e it was made pretty clear.  I'm not sure where the "Just bad game design!" is you're talking about...

 

You will find several references to a need to make judgement calls in 6e "bad game design".  If that is so, then the judgements we had to make in prior editions is equally bad game design.

 

5 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

But presumably skilled tennis players, baseball players, and so on, have spent points on something to represent their skill at their game?  In the same way that wrestlers have spent points on their fighting ability?  And runners have spent points on their abilities?  And... and... and...

 

Wrestlers buy more STR, CV, etc. and are better at things everyone can do, so I suggest your example indicates buying higher stats that affect the ability to Block (that is, OCV) or skill levels to Block specific things, is an appropriate means of reflecting that ability.  Runners buy more running, more END, more REC, more SPD, maybe an NCM - all "more of what everyone can do", rather than "special ability no one else has".  It seems you are making the case FOR the ability to Block ranged attacks by default.

 

5 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Can Aunt May Block a punch?  Does it matter if that punch is from a normal or from Galactus?  Common sense says no, and I'm pretty comfortable with that.  In most of her depictions she has one or more Disadvantages/Complications to the effect of "frail and elderly" and I'm fine with it being assumed that her inability to Block regular attacks is part of that.  Likewise, can a baby Block a punch, or drive a car, or go to work and earn a living?  Physical Limitation: Baby assumes they don't have the Everyman TF: Car, PS: Job (11-), or even 4 points in their native language.  

 

Can somebody do something (edit) most people (/edit) can't?  If so, then they pay points for it.  In 1e through 5er, Blocking ranged attacks was one of those things.  In 6th edition?  That's what this thread is about.  (edit)  Can somebody not do something most people can?  That's a limitation of some kind.  A Complication, Disadvantage, Limited Power, etc. (/edit)

 

So why is it wrong for "most people", or even "most cinematic people" (we don't have to let the normals, or even mooks, have abilities the PCs and major NPCs have by default), to have the ability to Block an incoming ranged attack?

 

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Wonder Woman blocks bullets with her bracelets.  That is a thing she does.  

 

Captain America blocks all kinds of things with his shield.  That is a thing he does. 

 

What is the campaign default?  I would suggest WW and Cap have some pretty major skill levels with Deflection to soak up those accumulating -2 penalties.

 

Does a Brick have to pay points to throw a manhole cover?  It depends - does he want them to be reliably available?  If, in our game, we have defined a need for "objects of opportunity" to Block ranged attacks, then having such an object available with greater reliability would cost points, wouldn't it?

 

I also think WW and Cap have Blocked an HTH attack while deflecting.  How do I buy that, in any edition?

 

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Han Solo can't pick up a lightsaber and deflect lasers.  Yoda can.  What does Yoda buy that gives him "justification"? 

 

WF: Lightsaber.  Which, as I interpret the SW universe, also requires Force sensitivity.  Perhaps that is a perk.  Perhaps it is gained simply by paying for Force powers.  Yoda may also have skill levels so he is better at Blocking than Novice Luke.

 

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Robin can't put on shiny metal bracelets and deflect bullets.  What does Wonder Woman buy that lets her do that?  

 

Most people in the Marvel universe couldn't pick up Cap's shield and deflect Thor's hammer, or bullets, or lasers.  What does Cap buy that lets him do that?

 

Perhaps they simply buy Skill Levels. 

 

Everyone in Hero can "deflect" Thor's hammer when he swings, rather than throws, it - that is a Block.  Why is it so much harder when he throws it instead?  Or perhaps Block should only be available if you pay 5 points to block fleshy fists and feet, 10 points to block armored appendages or small weapons, 15 points to block really strong, armored appendages or bigger weapons and 20 points to block even extraordinary fists that flash with fire, or magical weapons?  That seems a lot more like Missile Deflection pre-6e. 

 

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

And as Ninja Bear asked, how many levels?  Does it take fewer levels to deflect knives than it does to deflect arrows, than to deflect bullets, than to deflect lasers?  

 

 

Should it?  Why should costs vary based on SFX?  It does not cost more to have a laser beam, than a gun, than a bow, than a thrown knife.

 

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

So, that's all it takes?  A 1-point weapon familiarity and someone can block lasers? 

 

No, it takes 1 point and a Lightsaber.  Are Lightsabers gear, or do you need to construct your own (requring a skill, or perhaps a perk) or are they special gear that costs points?

 

Seems like it depends on the campaign ground rules.  Much like whether paying points for equipment is required - which has always been "it depends".