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Have you ever given players the stats for enemies they'll be facing?


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Like just straight up given them the write ups?

 

How did it effect things?

 

I know all the typical "good GM advice" is all around "show don't tell" and creating atmospherics and such but given the complexity of Hero I was thinking maybe just giving the players the stats would be a more effective way to actually communicate threat levels for newer Hero players rather than play a song and dance game of trying to imply and foreshadow things they might not understand in any case.

 

Any one tried this?

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Not as in given them the write ups.  I know that the Champions Universe has, in-universe, a rough power scale (approximately equal to the highest Active Points/5), and it's quite possible that in-universe entities might study other aspects of NPCs and give the PCs write ups based on what is known about them.  

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You can communicate threats effectively if the villain has a rating (Alpha, Beta, etc) by having the PCs make a KS: Superhumans roll or equivalent.  Telling a player that so-and-so looks tough is vastly different that saying "that's an Omega level villain".  Unless the villain is a complete unknown most villains will have the rating so you may as well use it.

 

You can always do a deep dive after session where you look at the NPCs to teach.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, sentry0 said:

You can communicate threats effectively if the villain has a rating (Alpha, Beta, etc) by having the PCs make a KS: Superhumans roll or equivalent.  Telling a player that so-and-so looks tough is vastly different that saying "that's an Omega level villain".  Unless the villain is a complete unknown most villains will have the rating so you may as well use it.

 

You can always do a deep dive after session where you look at the NPCs to teach.

But that's meaningless unless the players already know what the statblock of an Alpha, Beta, etc looks like, even if just from experience fighting them. 

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This is for Fantasy Hero.

I've got a mechanic for using Magesight to estimate APs in various ways already, but that's more for active use of magic, and not so much determining the power of summoned soul harvesters and more passive threat detection.

 

What I'm wanting to do is give them the stats ahead of time so they can plan an intricate (as intricate as they'd like) way of countering the threat. Which I think will work better if they have the actual stats to compare to their own.

 

It's pretty meta-gamey and breaks that there 4th wall. Interested to see how it turns out.

Given the typical gaming secrecy that surrounded NPCs and GM controlled folks I was curious to see what happens if that gets inverted.

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3 minutes ago, TranquiloUno said:

This is for Fantasy Hero.

I've got a mechanic for using Magesight to estimate APs in various ways already, but that's more for active use of magic, and not so much determining the power of summoned soul harvesters and more passive threat detection.

 

What I'm wanting to do is give them the stats ahead of time so they can plan an intricate (as intricate as they'd like) way of countering the threat. Which I think will work better if they have the actual stats to compare to their own.

 

It's pretty meta-gamey and breaks that there 4th wall. Interested to see how it turns out.

Given the typical gaming secrecy that surrounded NPCs and GM controlled folks I was curious to see what happens if that gets inverted.

 

Well you could always try it out and see what you think about it after.  If you end up not liking it you can stop, no harm no foul.

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"Have I heard anything about this guy in the news" - That's an INT roll if the guy has been in the news at all. That may or may not have information on his powers and abilities according to what the news coverage was.

 

"What do I know about his powers and abilities?" - That's a KS: Superhumans roll or KS: Alien races if it's an alien invader. If they don't have equivalent knowledge skills, they don't get a roll. If they think to ask some person or organization which knows, they'll get information according to how good of relations they have with the people they ask.

 

When teaching the game to a total newbie, I often let them know what the opponent's DEX, OCV, DCV, etc. are so I can better explain how combat works. But not after that.

 

For Fantasy HERO, I don't think it'd hurt to give them an idea of how strong a person is by seeing how many muscles the opponent has or how much damage a weapon might do based on how big it is. But I'd be hesitant to go further.

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11 minutes ago, sentry0 said:

 

Well you could always try it out and see what you think about it after.  If you end up not liking it you can stop, no harm no foul.

 

Oh we're definitely trying it out! Just curious to see if anyone else had ever tried this.

 

I'd say...probably, like, ALL of the GMing advice and tips I've ever read run counter to that.

Hide the stats so you can fudge the numbers.

Hide the stats to build mystery and threat and uncertainty.

Or maybe kinda hand wave the stats to get the right in-game effect you're wanting. Like if a fight is supposed to be TOUGH then you make it TOUGH regardless of what the players (or NPCs) roll.

 

All that kind of thing.

 

Never see, "Give the players the stats so they know just how screwed they are".

 

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14 minutes ago, archer said:

 

For Fantasy HERO, I don't think it'd hurt to give them an idea of how strong a person is by seeing how many muscles the opponent has or how much damage a weapon might do based on how big it is. But I'd be hesitant to go further. 

 

Yes, so this is kinda the crux of it: Why would you be hesitant to go further? What is the bad thing or sub-optimal result that would make you hesitate?

 

Is it just tradition at this point (more generally in RPGs, not you specifically)? Does it really enhance the game?

 

 

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1 hour ago, TranquiloUno said:

 

Yes, so this is kinda the crux of it: Why would you be hesitant to go further? What is the bad thing or sub-optimal result that would make you hesitate?

 

Is it just tradition at this point (more generally in RPGs, not you specifically)? Does it really enhance the game?

 

 

 

 

I'm hesitant because of the way I play the game. I'd...well, the technical term used to be "rules-rape" but I don't think that's politically correct anymore...but I'd rules-rape the hell out of anything if I got my hands onto information.

 

I wouldn't like to GM a player who played like I do if that player had perfect information.

 

Knowing how fast an opponent moves, knowing if they had access to a deadly spell, knowing what they're vulnerable to, knowing which martial arts maneuvers they do and don't have...that's all information which is wide open to be abused.

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4 minutes ago, archer said:

 

 

I'm hesitant because of the way I play the game. I'd...well, the technical term used to be "rules-rape" but I don't think that's politically correct anymore...but I'd rules-rape the hell out of anything if I got my hands onto information.

 

I wouldn't like to GM a player who played like I do if that player had perfect information.

 

Knowing how fast an opponent moves, knowing if they had access to a deadly spell, knowing what they're vulnerable to, knowing which martial arts maneuvers they do and don't have...that's all information which is wide open to be abused.

 

That's what I'm trying to encourage though. Rules analysis.

 

KNOWING the thing (it's a demonic hellbeast type critter) is vulnerable to certain types of magic (which the players don't have currently) knowing how it's attack will effect the players animal companions. Knowing it's OCV\DCV so they can figure out if they should put all levels in to DCV or if they should just run like hell when they see it.

All that kind of thing.

 

The creature in this case would probably stomp them fairly decently if they were to encounter it unexpectedly and tried to engage it in the typical "fantasy RPG" mode. So I wanted to warn them, but felt that concocting a whole scene around it would be a bit contrived and not really (mostly likely) fit the plot\NPC behaviors.

 

Like if you've got a Fighter and Rogue and a Druid and you know you're going to be fighting a liche with AoE firespells...what's your plan? If you know they are slow maybe you can stick and move and harass at range. Or try to recruit a Cleric or other anti-undead type.

If you know they've got a NND (Defense is self-contained breathing) then you can try to find some way to mitigate that.

 

If I just tell them, "it's a Gorgon, it's got poison breath", then their ability to actually plan for that it reduced, even though they still know it's got poison breath, heavy armor, and whatever else (horns and charging if we're adapting a D&D gorgon I guess).

 

That kind of thing. Enabling planning by giving them actual info to plan with instead of making (particularly as Hero newbies) them make semi-educated guesstimates.

 

The other way (concealed stats) is pretty classic and works in most cases and has worked fine for me for years. Just wondering about the reverse if anybody had tried it.

 

Sounds like...not really?

 

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I've given some stats indirectly - not the actual values - but in a way that the players knew they had to come up with alternate approaches to "whack with sword until dead".

 

One I used recently as a players usual moderate-to-high damage was ineffective due to high defenses.  Rather than just pointing out it did no damage I described it as, "You feel like you've slapped a tree wrapped in iron.  He doesn't even react to the blow.".

 

Sometimes comparing to players on the team will give them a good enough of an idea.

 

Ex:  The paladin is stronger than anyone you've ever met by twice over and yet the creature bats him aside like a child's plaything.

 

They know they can't out-muscle something like that.

 

blah, blah, short version - No, I never give them creature write-ups.  I have given some stats if a player on the team has the right knowledge skill or faces the creature in combat long enough to get an idea of what it's strength, speed, dex, pd, etc. might be.

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No, I don't give out stat write-ups. Some things the players will figure out on their own, such as Dex or Spd. Some thing they'll find out, such as when a lightning bolt does 34 Stun and 10 Body, and the guy smiles (or shrugs it off.) Once in a long while, I might tell them something they'll never know otherwise, such as the villain has +20 END through his IIF-Belt. That kind of knowledge won't make a difference.  If I was talking to new players, I would go into 'verbose-mode' and spend alot of time describing things but enemy stat wouldn't be one of them.

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So my follow up would be:  Since it seems like nobody has tried this (I haven't yet either!): What do you see as the downsides?

 

Just a lack of mystery\suspense?

 

Meta-gaming\breaking the fourth wall\fiction? (this was my main concern)

 

Ability to GM fudge some Stun\HP\Bod\End\Charges\CV to make things more cinematic and interesting?

 

Just...not how things are done?

 

 

I'm thinking of things like D&D by comparison.

 

When my squad of dudes winds up fighting some Orc...I personally don't have the Orc stat block *memorized* but I do have a very good idea what to expect.

So it's not like the stats are fully on display, but also...basically I know the stats.

 

Or if say: There's a Wizard: The PCs can make plans for that general case.

If I say: There's a 5th level Wizard: The PCs can make plans for the one big spell, maybe arrange a strategy around mitigating that.

If I say: There's a 5th level Wizard and he's got Fireball: Then they can make more detailed plans.

If I say: There's a 5th level Wizard, with Fireball, and he's immune to fire, but vulnerable to electricity: MORE detailed plans. Maybe they can do try to find a way to do electrical damage. Find a way to get a Flame Protection Potion. Have somebody save a phase to make sure they'll be able to counterspell.

 

Basically the idea that Hero is a very tactically complex game (or can be) and so providing more info the players allows them to create more complex plans, tactics, and specific strategies and then try to execute them.

 

Not that they can't make those kinds of plans already, but by directly giving them the stats you've given them agency to begin using them and empowered them to make more specific and effective strategies and tactics.

 

MIGHT be fun. I dunno about MORE fun than the traditional way, but...seems weird to me that I've never, ever, seen it suggested.

Always the opposite. So is that frame shift valid?

 

Will something bad happen to game play if the PCs have UberNPCs stats in front of them?

 

If my 5 350pt heroes are going to fight Dr Destroyer and I give him their stats does it change the outcome from my just doing all the GM foreshadowing to imply\state, "This guy is some top tier ass-whuping!"?

 

 

Partly I ask because while I'm familiar with the standard advice when I think about my own experiences as a player...I'm not sure it's...right?

 

I don't know that I've felt increases in narrative tension because I don't know the stats of something.

But I do know that I've been in plenty of dull, or just routine, combats using the standard methods.

 

Never seen this one tried. I mean...it's effectively been tried in wargames and similar. And those can all still be fun, and tense, and actually kinda improve your tactics in some ways.

Like if I know I'm fighting Skaven then I know there might be an assassin hidden in that unit of infantry, so I avoid charging it with my general right off (if anybody is in to Warhammer Fantasy Battle) for instance.

 

If I just know, "Skaven have assassins", then I'm much less likely to avoid doing that.

 

 

Right?

 

Does more PC knowledge produce more better or more interesting preplanning?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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There's obviously not a definite answer to your question, as in "No! You can't do that!" I'm actually interested to see what you find out with your experiment. But I'll just throw in a couple of observations, for whatever they're worth. 

 

In D&D there's a bit of transparency, mostly because everyone has the Monster Manual and Player's Handbook, so they already know what the numbers are, even if they aren't supposed to peek. But from the side of someone who was in a 5e game where I didn't have any of the books, I know I was frustrated no knowing how a witches' coven worked. Our group's challenge seemed insurmountable, and we spent two weeks in abject angst trying to find a way to beat them. We eventually did! If we had known the rules ahead of time, we probably could have beaten them a lot sooner without any bit of worry. But also no sense of accomplishment either. Not knowing actually did increase the dramatic tension, at least in this particular situation.

 

There is a certain value in being able to fudge numbers when you need to, especially with new players. Again, in the situation above, my buddy was running the 5e encounter and fudged some of numbers so we didn't get our rear ends handed to us.

 

1 hour ago, TranquiloUno said:

When my squad of dudes winds up fighting some Orc...I personally don't have the Orc stat block *memorized* but I do have a very good idea what to expect.

So it's not like the stats are fully on display, but also...basically I know the stats.

It might make sense for players to have Knowledge Skills about certain types of enemies, such as orcs or whatever, and have "standard" stats for them to refer to. But for rare encounters, or special enemies, it seems like a player wouldn't know the specifics of what's coming. Giving them stats for a 1000 point dragon ahead of time may give them an advantage, but if they're not ready for the challenge, then it's probably not time to give them that kind of challenge yet. I guess the key is to decide how much of the world the players should know without having to learn about it. Heck, if they go to Ye Olde Fantasy Librarie to look in the encyclopedia of dragons, then they have justification to have the stats. But if they are encountering their first dragon ever, why take the fun of uncertainty away from them? Make them earn their knowledge of the dragon, perhaps through several encounters. They may have to run away the first few times, which only makes the final encounter feel like a real success. But again, that's just a narrative concern, and doesn't necessarily apply to your campaign.

 

1 hour ago, TranquiloUno said:

I don't know that I've felt increases in narrative tension because I don't know the stats of something.

But I do know that I've been in plenty of dull, or just routine, combats using the standard methods.

So, on this, I had this specific kind of encounter a few days ago in my gaming group. It was Betrayal at House on the Hill, not a role playing game, but the similarities are close enough. The players uncovered a dragon as their haunting, and had to run around trying to find certain mystical items to help them fight the dragon. This was all they knew. They needed the items, and didn't know anything about the dragon. I was the dragon, and chased them down one at a time and killed them. At one point, one of the players pretty much summed up everyone's frustration when she exclaimed, "Damn! How much damage can this thing take?!" I cornered the last player, and after a couple of tries, she actually was able to kill the dragon. It was a sense of accomplishment for everyone, even though most of them died. I tell this story for this reason: if I had told them ahead of time everything about the dragon, they would have been a lot less worried. It had a number of hit points equal to the number of players, and reduced every attack's damage by two. They didn't know any of this, although they easily figured out how much damage it could deal. This is obviously not the same as an RPG like Fantasy HERO, but it does seem instructive: not knowing made the encounter more frightening and challenging, as well as more rewarding.  YMMV

 

Regardless, let us know how your experiment goes. I'd love to hear precisely because it's not standard RPG form. Good luck!

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2 hours ago, TranquiloUno said:

What do you see as the downsides?

 

 

The players from Fantasy HERO, for the first time, meet evil versions of:

 

The original Green Lantern from the JSA

Green Lantern Hal Jordan (pre-Crisis)

Martian Manhunter

Wonder Woman (pre-Crisis)

The Wicked Witch of the West (aka The Wickeder Witch of the West)

 

Matt, arguably the player with the most powerful character, has that character drop The Sword of Azeroth and instead pick up an ordinary stick and beats the original Green Lantern senseless because Matt knows that Green Lantern's power ring is powerless against wood.

 

Steve, rather than having his character draw a weapon, has his character stick his torch in Martian Manhunter's face while Duke has his character, rather than drawing a weapon, pour lantern oil on the Manhunter. The Manhunter lights up like an inhuman torch and is out of the fight.

 

George has his character, rather than draw a weapon, pull a yellow raincoat out of his pack while Jack's character keeps Hal Jordan busy in a regular sword vs green energy sword fight in which Jack's character is grossly overmatched.

 

Randy has his male character lasso Wonder Woman's hands together which renders her completely powerless to resist at all because she was bound up by a man.

 

The party's mage, rather than facing off for an epic sorcery battle against the Witch, instead pulls out his canteen and splashes water on her so that she instantly melts.

 

Next phase for the party, everyone is free to act against Hal Jordan. George rushes to tackle him since Jordan's power ring won't work because George's character is now wearing a yellow raincoat. Everyone else puts on regular rings made of gold as a zero phase action and beats Jordan bloody while he's at half DCV and his green shield attempt won't stop hands which are wearing yellow gold (yeah, power ring constructs were weird like that back in the day).

 

 

There's zero in-world explanation for the player characters' bizarre actions: that's where I see the down side.

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I've done it.

 

Not often, and only in scenarios, generally when said scenarios are going down the toilet for the PCs.

 

Let me get this out there:

 

These were one-off adventures.  I've never done it in a campaign, and can't tell you what the long-term effects would be, but based on my own results, I'm guessing it's going to depend on your group:  

 

Davien-- my one rules-raping combat-monster building power gaming player, many years ago, begged for it every single time they encountered someone in _any_ situation.  So I'm guessing it's going to have some appeal for guys like that.

 

My story-driven, "give me as much narrative as you can even if you gum up the works for everyone else" players _hated_ it.  They felt like they were being robbed of a discovery experience.  They would get a bit sulky about it.

 

Now let me re-state that I haven't done it much, and haven't done it at all since about '88 or '89.  I only did it, as I said, when there was no campaign to affect, and only after the bad guy was moping the floor with them and he _shouldn't_ have been, or if the players refused to understand that they could not out-punch the thirty-foot armor-clad behemoth and might want to try another approach.

 

Overall, i found that once they knew _precisely_ what they were up against, they tended to play smarter, much more tactically.

 

Which makes sense, really, because what I did was remove the biggest element that separates Role Playing Games from War Games.  The end result was that I turned the whole thing into a war game.  Suddenly everyone was working the meta: while they moved as a much more effective unit, they began calculating average die rolls, who would most likely take out this one or that one while two others coordinated attacks against someone else because they math says this would be "just right" to take that one down---

 

and the only communication was suddenly player to player; the characters might as well have been mobile gun platforms.

 

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Duke

 

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2 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

In D&D there's a bit of transparency, mostly because everyone has the Monster Manual and Player's Handbook, so they already know what the numbers are, even if they aren't supposed to peek.

 

That is why if I create an adventure I try to use creatures/threats that are not in the regular WotC books.  Or I should say I try to not use WotC books for the main or important threats.  Third Party books, old RPG books from the 80's converted and homebrew.  I'll use official WotC (read: books all the players have read) for lesser or routine problems.  But not the important stuff.  

 

For me as a player the unknown was the big pull. 

In the games I run I inject a lot of mystery and the unknown and my players enjoy it, though now it is mostly one-shots. 

I will be running a regular 5th edition campaign soon for some RPG gamers I know.  RPG as opposed to roll-player/murder hobo's. 

 

But I will be running C&C's 5th Ed conversion of Beneath the Canopy Green.   Some "standard" threats, but different enough to have regained a bit of the unknown. 

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21 hours ago, archer said:

 

The players from Fantasy HERO, for the first time, meet evil versions of:

 

The original Green Lantern from the JSA

Green Lantern Hal Jordan (pre-Crisis)

Martian Manhunter

Wonder Woman (pre-Crisis)

The Wicked Witch of the West (aka The Wickeder Witch of the West)

 

 

Pretty much everything Archer said in this post _exactly_ sums up my experience with giving the players the write-ups. 

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On 4/8/2019 at 3:17 PM, archer said:

 

The players from Fantasy HERO, for the first time, meet evil versions of:

 

The original Green Lantern from the JSA

Green Lantern Hal Jordan (pre-Crisis)

Martian Manhunter

Wonder Woman (pre-Crisis)

The Wicked Witch of the West (aka The Wickeder Witch of the West)

 

Matt, arguably the player with the most powerful character, has that character drop The Sword of Azeroth and instead pick up an ordinary stick and beats the original Green Lantern senseless because Matt knows that Green Lantern's power ring is powerless against wood.

 

Steve, rather than having his character draw a weapon, has his character stick his torch in Martian Manhunter's face while Duke has his character, rather than drawing a weapon, pour lantern oil on the Manhunter. The Manhunter lights up like an inhuman torch and is out of the fight.

 

George has his character, rather than draw a weapon, pull a yellow raincoat out of his pack while Jack's character keeps Hal Jordan busy in a regular sword vs green energy sword fight in which Jack's character is grossly overmatched.

 

Randy has his male character lasso Wonder Woman's hands together which renders her completely powerless to resist at all because she was bound up by a man.

 

The party's mage, rather than facing off for an epic sorcery battle against the Witch, instead pulls out his canteen and splashes water on her so that she instantly melts.

 

Next phase for the party, everyone is free to act against Hal Jordan. George rushes to tackle him since Jordan's power ring won't work because George's character is now wearing a yellow raincoat. Everyone else puts on regular rings made of gold as a zero phase action and beats Jordan bloody while he's at half DCV and his green shield attempt won't stop hands which are wearing yellow gold (yeah, power ring constructs were weird like that back in the day).

 

 

There's zero in-world explanation for the player characters' bizarre actions: that's where I see the down side.

 

Sure, but what if instead, 5-10 minutes prior to the fight "A Wizard" appears and sez, "Look, bros, you're about to get hit hard by some serious MFers and here's what you need to know to maybe not die...", and lays out those basic bits you've referenced?

(and then the GM gives the players the character sheets and says, "Ok! You've got five minutes! Make a plan!")

 

That sort of stuff (what you've listed above) is pretty much exactly the sort of thing I'd like them to be doing.

Also and reciprocationally (<- that's probably not a real word) I'd be more interested in the various JSA\JLA\WoO character were targeting the PCs for a reason, also had some hint of their capabilities and maybe even were targeting specific PCs in specific ways themselves.

 

I mean throwing pre-Crisis anybody at a bunch of Fantasy Hero character would be a harsh move.

 

But let's say it was just one, just Alan Scott. And while the *players* might have the full stats the *characters* only know in-game stuff like: his foul magics don't work on specific forms of plant matter, he can create a variety of effects but they'll all be coming from his ring of twisted emerald necromancy, and while they can expect he'll have up Force Walls and Forcefields and whatever else that he's ultimately just a man behind all that evil magic and can be tricked, trapped, hurt, and killed like anybody else if they can find ways to get passed his specific defenses and find ways to survive his More-AP-Than-You-Get blasts and TK.

 

 

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