Rolling as an offensive action

[Brian Stanfield]

Ok, so I'm drawing from some personal experience when I ask this question: when I was a kid and was training pretty seriously in the martial arts, I learned how to breakfall, but also how to roll out of a breakfall, just like the HERO rules describe it. This sort of realism was one of the things that drew me to the rules in the first place. But I also learned to roll as a way to advance to attack (like a half move before a strike), but also, and this is where I have a question, I learned how to roll and pick up an object, such as a weapon, mid-roll and use it as part of the attack. Is there a maneuver I'm not seeing that allows for this in HERO?

 

I realize there are all sorts of interesting ways I could create this with a power, but I want to first exhaust the possibility of there being a maneuver that I'm overlooking, or one that can be applied in a way that I haven't thought of yet. Breakfall is really darned close, but not quite it. I need a "breakfall plus." Any ideas?

[archer]

You can get a bonus to attacking through using Acrobatics in an unusual way. What you're describing sounds mechanically more like Acrobatics than Breakfall.

 

Random story time:

 

I had a guy in football practice who as a defender would intentionally drop to the ground and roll forward to cut my legs out from under me. It left him useless for affecting any of the rest of the play and the tangle of the two of us lying on the ground blocked the area more thoroughly than I could have done on my own. He was doing it to make me look bad and because he thought it was funny, not because he thought he could do it during a game.

 

This had gone on for a number of days in full view of the coach without the coach telling the guy that he had to knock it off and play football. So I asked my coach how to deal with him and my coach told me to get "lower to the ground". I pointed out that the defender was rolling around on the ground and I was unlikely to find a way to get any lower than he was. My coach looked at me exasperated and told me to be creative as if I were the problem.

 

So next time the guy dropped to the ground and tried to roll forward, I forgot about playing my role as part of a football team and instead danced out of the way while kicking him repeatedly as hard as I could until the play ended. I figured if the other guy could forget about playing football and instead do something he thought was funny that I should as well.

 

The coach, surprisingly, was less than enthused about my creative tactics.

[Manic Typist]

Sounds like just a Half Move with a Breakfall roll, maybe with a -1 for picking up the weapon. If you fail, you move forward or end up prone but don't get to attack because you got tangled up grabbing the object... but you still have a Half Phase to get up from being prone, etc. Picking up a weapon is, IIRC, a Zero Phase action.

 

If you succeed, +1 or more for a Surprise Move to your OCV.

 

You could do a Full Move I would think, assuming you're willing to take the modifiers for a Move By in addition. Maybe a -2 to the Breakfall to represent it being a little harder to go at a higher speed.

[Scott Ruggels]

I think Manic typist has the gist of it, but I think the penalty may be too great, If the character is trained, I would have the half move end with him standing where he intended, but if he missed the grab for the weapon, he just ends up empty handed. I think an 18 on acrobatics would result in the character being prone, and tangled. 

[Brian Stanfield]

1 hour ago, Manic Typist said:

Picking up a weapon is, IIRC, a Zero Phase action.

 

I forgot to mention, one of the reasons I brought this up is because I was reading about the disarm maneuver and was reminded that when the weapon is disarmed, it takes a half phase to pick it up again. Which got me thinking about the half-move, roll, grab, attack stuff that I was taught to do. So the rules require a little more time to resolve a move like this than I was hoping for in a maneuver. Obviously I could just do the teleport, must cross the distance, etc. etc. power build, but I'm curious if there's a good solution just using the maneuvers as they're given. Maybe there's a martial arts maneuver that I'm not aware of. . . .

[Chris Goodwin]

I'd say, describe it just the way you did, make your Breakfall or Acrobatics roll, and you did it.  Max of a half move if you want to attack after.  

 

I think the half-phase to pick it up is if you're a non-Breakfallin' pregnant yak type who leans down in combat to pick it up.  

[massey]

Roll around with no pants on, and most people will find that offensive.

[Duke Bushido]

I'm with Scott and Chris:

 

I would have an unpenalized roll to pick up the item, but I wouldn't assess a time penalty, particularly if you were specifying this as a maneuver performed by someone trained to do it effectively and efficiently. 

 

If that doesn't sit well with you, then I am sure you could build an actual martial maneuver that does this rules-tight by selecting  (or building) the appropriate elements.  It might come out cost-wonky, though, and I dont see going to the effort to have a large enough payoff to want to do anything else than declare this a feat of acrobatics. 

 

Your mileage may vary. 

[Lucius]

Re-arming Roll:  (Total: 5 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) Fast Draw DEX +1  (5 Active Points); Conditional Power Only to pick up weapon from ground or floor (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; Can choose which of two rolls to make from use to use; Breakfall or Acrobatics; -1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has a dinner roll

[Manic Typist]

I really think you're overthinking it; a maneuver should only be built/paid for if a PC really wants to do it perfect EVERY single time. If there's going to be a roll requirement.... just use Breakfall, maybe with a negative modifier, and a Half Phase Action.

Keep it simple. You can solve this situation without extra work.

[archer]

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

Re-arming Roll:  (Total: 5 Active Cost, 3 Real Cost) Fast Draw DEX +1  (5 Active Points); Conditional Power Only to pick up weapon from ground or floor (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; Can choose which of two rolls to make from use to use; Breakfall or Acrobatics; -1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has a dinner roll

 

If I'm going to spend points just to have the weapon in my hand, I'd rather buy it as Only in Hero ID (-1/4) rather than as an OAF (-1). Then I could just have the damned thing teleport automatically back into my hand whenever I drop it.

[Lucius]

7 hours ago, archer said:

 

If I'm going to spend points just to have the weapon in my hand, I'd rather buy it as Only in Hero ID (-1/4) rather than as an OAF (-1). Then I could just have the damned thing teleport automatically back into my hand whenever I drop it.

 

Doesn't help you grab someone ELSE's weapon that you've just disarmed.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Rolling under a palindromedary

[Hugh Neilson]

The rules are less than consistent.

 

If you look at 6e V2 p 173,

 

as a weapon (see 6E2 124). On the other hand, the GM should assume that a simple, nonresisting object can be picked up and used as a weapon as part of a single Attack Action. Generally speaking, as long as an object is non-resisting and in no way difficult to grasp or lift, a character shouldn’t have to use a Grab to pick it up if he can lift it with his Casual STR.

 

Yet, on p 23, we find that it takes a half phase to pick up a disarmed weapon, or to draw a weapon (that's right, it takes as long to pull the sword from its scabbard, where the hilt is right there in place as to pick it up off the ground after you dropped it).  But on p 67, we find we can Grab a weapon and immediately use it.

 

So I can, combining RAW, pick up a beer stein in the bar and throw it as a half phase action, but I have to spend a half phase to draw the dagger at my hip, and another half phase to throw it.

 

Before we can assess what that Acrobatics or Breakfall should do, perhaps we need to rationalize these rules.  It would seem reasonable to me that the Breakfall or Acrobatics skill (probably the latter - Breakfall is about dealing with a fall the character did not initiate, while tumbling around the area seems more in the domain of Acrobatics) could mitigate any penalty for picking up a dropped object, but there is no penalty between picking up an object I dropped and drawing it from a holster or scabbard.

 

Grab lets you spend a half phase to pick up an object, but it's also an attack action - you can throw the object after, but not as an attack to hit another target (6e v2 p 82).  Maybe we rule that this also applies to Grabbing an object and hitting someone with it as an attack.

 

This also seems like a switch for the campaign.  I don't see the archers or weapons masters in Supers games spending half phases to draw their weapons.  So, let's assume we have two toggles.  For Supers, "as long as casual STR can lift it, drawing a weapon or picking up an easily accessible object for use as a weapon is a zero phase action". 

 

For non-Supers, it takes a half phase to draw or ready an easily accessible object for use as a weapon.  Fast Draw now becomes useful to reduce this to a 0 phase action.

 

If the object is not readily accessible - I have to crouch, bend over, whatever, to access it?  That could reasonably add a half phase, so in a Heroic game, you need a half phase to pick the object up, and another half phase to ready it for use as a weapon.  A properly stowed, holstered or scabbarded weapon does not require this extra half phase to pick up the object.  Fast Draw can eliminate the half phase to ready it as a weapon.  It seems reasonable that Acrobatics could also eliminate the half phase to pick the object up by flipping around to put the object and your hand in closer proximity - it removes the slowdown from getting your hand down there to grab the weapon and picking it back up again, all while avoiding nasty pointy things being jabbed into you by others in the area. 

 

That would mean you need both Fast Draw and Acrobatics to make an acrobatic half move, picking up that dropped weapon on the way, roll to your feet and use the weapon in an attack.  That does not seem unreasonable if a character lacking either skill needs a full phase to bend over, pick up the object and ready it for use as a weapon.  And a Super could still use Acrobatics to retrieve a dropped weapon or other object without using a half phase to pick it up, then use it as an attack immediately as Supers do not require a half phase to ready a weapon or object for use in an attack.

 

 

[Brian Stanfield]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

That would mean you need both Fast Draw and Acrobatics to make an acrobatic half move, picking up that dropped weapon on the way, roll to your feet and use the weapon in an attack.  That does not seem unreasonable if a character lacking either skill needs a full phase to bend over, pick up the object and ready it for use as a weapon.  And a Super could still use Acrobatics to retrieve a dropped weapon or other object without using a half phase to pick it up, then use it as an attack immediately as Supers do not require a half phase to ready a weapon or object for use in an attack.

 

This seems reasonable to me, and is more in the spirit of what I was trying to figure out. Thanks for the excellent analysis.

[dsatow]

LOL, the first thing that came to mind is "It's only offensive if you just roll one for yourself and don't share."

 

[eepjr24]

On 4/14/2019 at 9:25 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

The rules are less than consistent.

 

If you look at 6e V2 p 173,

 

 

 

 

Yet, on p 23, we find that it takes a half phase to pick up a disarmed weapon, or to draw a weapon (that's right, it takes as long to pull the sword from its scabbard, where the hilt is right there in place as to pick it up off the ground after you dropped it).  But on p 67, we find we can Grab a weapon and immediately use it.

 

So I can, combining RAW, pick up a beer stein in the bar and throw it as a half phase action, but I have to spend a half phase to draw the dagger at my hip, and another half phase to throw it.

 

 

 

The rules on 6e2, 173 are for using non-weapons as improvised weapons. That damage is non-killing as well, and limited by the PD and Body of the object and your strength. So as a superb fighter you could pick up and throw that discarded dagger as a non-weapon for 4d6 N damage. 

 

On 6e2, 60 it elaborates that picking up a weapon that was disarmed from you takes a half phase.

 

On 6e2, 67 it says that you can spend a half phase and attempt to grab a weapon at -3 OCV (or more, depending on weapon lengths), -2 DCV and a strength contest to get control of the weapon, after which your phase ends. You can use it your next phase, if you won (not tied or lost) the strength contest.

 

The beer stein there would do 1-2d6 N damage if you hit (-3 OCV for unbalanced, -3 for non-proficiency). Plus a -1 to -3 range modifier.

 

Leaving out all the context and modifiers makes a big difference.

 

- E

[RDU Neil]

On 4/13/2019 at 5:16 PM, archer said:

So next time the guy dropped to the ground and tried to roll forward, I forgot about playing my role as part of a football team and instead danced out of the way while kicking him repeatedly as hard as I could until the play ended. I figured if the other guy could forget about playing football and instead do something he thought was funny that I should as well.

 

That certainly was getting "lower"... so good for you! 😆

[Killer Shrike]

Grab By / Flying Grab

[Killer Shrike]

Disregard, just a tangent.