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Avengers Endgame with spoilers


Bazza

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In the comics, Thor and Iron Man have both suffered severe breakdowns. Even Superman has gone crazy for a while, and not just in the Injustice-style alternate universes. The measure of a hero is not whether something causes them to crack. That can happen to anyone if enough pressure is put on a psychic vulnerable spot, which every person has. The measure of a hero is how they learn from it, overcome it, and rise up again.

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Yawn.  Meanwhile, it would have been nice to have heroes be heroic and face hardship with courage and fortitude, demonstrating something to look up to and strive for rather than collapse like a pathetic wretch.  You know, heroism?  Being a better man than we are, because they're iconic figures, SUPER heroes?  Defined not by their powers but how they face difficulty? Can't have that though.  Not these days.

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18 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yawn.  Meanwhile, it would have been nice to have heroes be heroic and face hardship with courage and fortitude, demonstrating something to look up to and strive for rather than collapse like a pathetic wretch.  You know, heroism?  Being a better man than we are, because they're iconic figures, SUPER heroes?  Defined not by their powers but how they face difficulty? Can't have that though.  Not these days.

 

I think we watched different movies.

 

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27 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yawn.  Meanwhile, it would have been nice to have heroes be heroic and face hardship with courage and fortitude, demonstrating something to look up to and strive for rather than collapse like a pathetic wretch.  You know, heroism?  Being a better man than we are, because they're iconic figures, SUPER heroes?  Defined not by their powers but how they face difficulty? Can't have that though.  Not these days.

 

I can't even recall the characters name from Saving Private Ryan, but the main characters drag their battered, demoralized asses to safety and this one quietly heroic guy walks through the lunch line to get some food and then gets ready to walk right back out into the action.

 

He gets asked why he's going back out when he could rest and he basically says if he doesn't do it then someone else will have to and off he goes.  No fanfare, no bravado - just doing what had to be done.

 

It's less dramatic if the hero doesn't have an emotional breakdown, but there are some bad-ass warrior-gene guys out there that can handle these hardships without having to shatter and reconstruct themselves.

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If these characters stayed wallowing, I would agree. They didn't. When the occasion called for them to be heroic, they rose to it. Characters who are never challenged in that way aren't heroes, they're cardboard cutouts. And they're the ones who make me yawn.

 

Let's look at Thor for a moment. What led to his depressive period? He lost his lover. He lost his mother. He lost his father. He lost his brother. He lost his closest friends. He lost his home. He failed to protect half his people, and lost them. Through all of that, he kept moving forward, refusing to give up. What finally pushed him over the edge was what he saw as his personal failure to save half the people in the universe.

 

Granted, it took him a long time to find his way back, and he needed help. But in the end when it mattered most, he stood up and fought again.

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6 minutes ago, Toxxus said:

 

I can't even recall the characters name from Saving Private Ryan, but the main characters drag their battered, demoralized asses to safety and this one quietly heroic guy walks through the lunch line to get some food and then gets ready to walk right back out into the action.

 

He gets asked why he's going back out when he could rest and he basically says if he doesn't do it then someone else will have to and off he goes.  No fanfare, no bravado - just doing what had to be done.

 

It's less dramatic if the hero doesn't have an emotional breakdown, but there are some bad-ass warrior-gene guys out there that can handle these hardships without having to shatter and reconstruct themselves.

 

I remember that, and yes, it absolutely was heroic, and moving. But I would argue that for that man to have gotten to that mindset, he must have gone through much fear and pain, maybe guilt, and found a way to rise above it. I think we were just witnessing the end of his "character arc."

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11 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Let's look at Thor for a moment.

 

I like that they wanted to give Thor an arc in Endgame. However, his journey felt too much like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure and not enough like a superhero movie to me. The fact that Thor fell to such a low point makes sense, but the way they played it up for comedy was rather tone deaf in my view. Especially if we are meant to empathize with Thor's pain. It just didn't work for me. They reduced his emotional turmoil to farce.

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I would also point out that they were showing various ways of dealing with things. Steve was stoic and just doing what needed to be done, Natasha threw herself into leading a group righting wrongs, Clint went vengeance and vigilante (punisher style), Thor went lethargic and self medicating, Tony had PTSD and anxiety and decided to try to protect EVERYONE whether they liked it or not.

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24 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

It was interesting to me that Steve in Endgame dealt with his losses by walking away from the whole Avenger/superhero schtick, and trying to help other people deal with theirs. That could be interpreted as Steve giving up, although not by me.

 

I liked the idea that he finally accepted that he had given enough and could enjoy his own life for a change.

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Yeah, that makes sense for Steve Rogers the man, though not for Captain America the superhero. However, since the actors are aging and want to move on to other things, it isn't practical to keep their characters stuck in superhero mode for the lengths of time they have in the comics (which is almost in perpetuity).

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1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I remember that, and yes, it absolutely was heroic, and moving. But I would argue that for that man to have gotten to that mindset, he must have gone through much fear and pain, maybe guilt, and found a way to rise above it. I think we were just witnessing the end of his "character arc."

 

And if every single character had this same, steadfast attitude, then it wouldn't be special or interesting or dramatic or powerful when it is shown. It would diminish Capt. America and his steadfast courage, if that was just how all the heroes act. 

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53 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

It was interesting to me that Steve in Endgame dealt with his losses by walking away from the whole Avenger/superhero schtick, and trying to help other people deal with theirs. That could be interpreted as Steve giving up, although not by me.

 

I agree... as I've stated before, Steve/Caps arc was that of recklessly self-sacrificing maturing to a point of enlightened self-interest. This was counterpoint to Tony's arc from hedonistic self-interest to the ultimate sacrifice. Steve realized that to deny himself what he fought for others, diminished the achievement... Tony learned to accept what was greater than himself. Parallel arcs crossing each other.

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2 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

I can't even recall the characters name from Saving Private Ryan, but the main characters drag their battered, demoralized asses to safety and this one quietly heroic guy walks through the lunch line to get some food and then gets ready to walk right back out into the action.

 

He gets asked why he's going back out when he could rest and he basically says if he doesn't do it then someone else will have to and off he goes.  No fanfare, no bravado - just doing what had to be done.

 

 

That sounds like Eric Bana's Special Forces character at the end of Black Hawk Down.

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3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Let's look at Thor for a moment. What led to his depressive period? He lost his lover. He lost his mother. He lost his father. He lost his brother. He lost his closest friends. He lost his home. He failed to protect half his people, and lost them. Through all of that, he kept moving forward, refusing to give up. What finally pushed him over the edge was what he saw as his personal failure to save half the people in the universe.

 

Granted, it took him a long time to find his way back, and he needed help. But in the end when it mattered most, he stood up and fought again.

 

Added to that, Thor was singled out.  "You should have gone for the head."  He made a split-second decision that, had he made a different choice, perhaps could have won.  And he did go for the head when it was too late.  He took personal responsibility for half the universe being wiped out.

 

However, I also agree with the point that this descended into farce.  This arc could have been shown without "porky Thor" and "eat a salad".

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