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Avengers Endgame with spoilers


Bazza

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Seems to me it's a failure to understand the implications of time travel. The Thanos that Tony snapped out of existence was Thanos of years ago BEFORE that Thanos snapped half the universe from existence, so when Tony erased that Thanos there was no longer a gauntlet-wearing finger-snapping Thanos to worry about, which meant the heroes didn't go off to fight Thanos in the past, and Thanos didn't rip the gem from Vision's forehead, and so on and so on.

Or should we assume that Tony just sent them all home after wiping their memories, meaning Starlord took a knee to the... vitals... for nothing.

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2 hours ago, clnicholsusa said:

Seems to me it's a failure to understand the implications of time travel. The Thanos that Tony snapped out of existence was Thanos of years ago BEFORE that Thanos snapped half the universe from existence, so when Tony erased that Thanos there was no longer a gauntlet-wearing finger-snapping Thanos to worry about. Or should we assume that Tony just sent them all home after wiping their memories, meaning Starlord took a knee to the... vitals... for nothing.

 

The Thanos that Tony snapped out of existence was from a bifurcated reality formed when one of the stones was removed (and when the Nebulas went all quantum-entangled), and not the Thanos that performed the snap (who died when Thor decapitated him). Likewise, the Gamora that came through isn't the same Gamora who was sacrificed by Thanos to receive the Soul stone, but one from the other "trouser leg of time", because of Quantum.

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2 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

 

The Thanos that Tony snapped out of existence was from a bifurcated reality formed when one of the stones was removed (and when the Nebulas went all quantum-entangled), and not the Thanos that performed the snap (who died when Thor decapitated him). Likewise, the Gamora that came through isn't the same Gamora who was sacrificed by Thanos to receive the Soul stone, but one from the other "trouser leg of time", because of Quantum.

 

Exactly.  Plus it's not like Nebula disappeared when she shot herself.

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11 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

If you subscribe to the idea that alien life is equivalent to human, Tony Stark is the greatest mass murderer in human history between nuking the mothership and snapping Thanos' army out of existence.

 

Depending on how many worlds Thanos "liberated" before he got the Stones, this may or may not be true. 

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On 5/31/2019 at 11:09 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

If you subscribe to the idea that alien life is equivalent to human, Tony Stark is the greatest mass murderer in human history between nuking the mothership and snapping Thanos' army out of existence.

 

I would suggest that both of those events are appropriately considered war-time acts which inflicted heavy casualties on the enemy.  Causing deaths in such fashion is not generally included in the definition of "murder".

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1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah, although a single person being responsible for so many deaths, directly and specifically, is pretty unique.  Someone less self-absorbed and wholly defined by ego than Stark would probably have been haunted by the thoughts of that.

 

Thanos' new plan was to kill everyone in the universe, and start over. Tony's action prevented that. Seems like he used appropriate force in the situation, at great cost to himself.

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I remember back in the 80s when Iron Man was expelled from the Avengers (by Hawkeye, of all people) for accidentally killing Titanium Man.  Times have certainly changed.

 

Having said that, Superman doesn't kill. Everybody knows that.

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2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah, although a single person being responsible for so many deaths, directly and specifically, is pretty unique.  Someone less self-absorbed and wholly defined by ego than Stark would probably have been haunted by the thoughts of that.

 

Did you see Iron Man 3? Much of that film shows how deeply Tony was haunted by the events of the Chitauri invasion.

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3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Superman: snaps one alien's neck

Internet: SUPERMAN DOES NOT KILL!!!!  He would have found another way!!! That wasn't heroic!

 

Iron Man: nukes and then dusts millions of aliens

Internet: What a hero!

 

Zach Snyder: Wait, what??

I think the circumstances are different in how things were presented. Superman typically beats Iron Man nine out of ten times under regular rules.

 

Superman already had kryptonite in his movie. And he already knew lead blocked kryptonite. So it's easy to say that he could have combined the two and weakened Zod enough to move him off planet, or put him back in the phantom zone, or what have you.

 

Iron Man is using the only thing he has to deal with saving the universe since Thanos almost snapped the universe into what he wanted, and there was no way Stark was going to survive another brawl, and Thanos was right there to take the gems back.

 

The Russos might not ever have a movie as good as Endgame but they showed they understood their characters and how to set things up for the sacrifice better than Snyder.

CES   

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Every person Iron Man killed in the Chitauri invasion, and with the Snap, was a member of Thanos' army.  His actions were comparable to Luke blowing up the Death Star.  I don't know how many Storm Troopers were there, but I bet it was a lot.

 

In real life, the people with the closest kill count would probably be the crew of the Enola Gay.  That's a similar type maneuver, except they couldn't target it like Iron Man could to avoid civilians.

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3 hours ago, csyphrett said:

Superman already had kryptonite in his movie. And he already knew lead blocked kryptonite. So it's easy to say that he could have combined the two and weakened Zod enough to move him off planet, or put him back in the phantom zone, or what have you.

 

Correction: In Man of Steel Kryptonite hadn't been introduced yet. Zach Snyder purposely set up a situation in which Superman's only choices were to deliberately kill Zod, or allow him to murder innocent people. That's really no choice at all for the kind of man the movie had shown Clark Kent to be. But we saw how agonized Supes was over making that choice. That would have been the perfect motivation for him to pledge, "Never again."

 

Instead in Batman vs Superman Snyder took him in the opposite direction. When Clark rescued Lois Lane there was no need for him to kill the terrorist holding her. With his powers he could have stopped the man effortlessly. But Snyder Supes murdered him without a second's hesitation. In that movie we see again and again how arrogant and impulsive Superman was becoming.

 

What Zach Snyder doesn't get is that there's a huge difference between being forced to kill, and being willing to kill. Clark Kent in the comics is desperately afraid of the temptation to cross that line, because with his power he couldn't be held to account by anyone. No few "Elseworlds"-type stories have shown Superman following that path to become a conscienceless monster.

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38 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Correction: In Man of Steel Kryptonite hadn't been introduced yet. Zach Snyder purposely set up a situation in which Superman's only choices were to deliberately kill Zod, or allow him to murder innocent people. That's really no choice at all for the kind of man the movie had shown Clark Kent to be. But we saw how agonized Supes was over making that choice. That would have been the perfect motivation for him to pledge, "Never again."

 

Instead in Batman vs Superman Snyder took him in the opposite direction. When Clark rescued Lois Lane there was no need for him to kill the terrorist holding her. With his powers he could have stopped the man effortlessly. But Snyder Supes murdered him without a second's hesitation. In that movie we see again and again how arrogant and impulsive Superman was becoming.

 

What Zach Snyder doesn't get is that there's a huge difference between being forced to kill, and being willing to kill. Clark Kent in the comics is desperately afraid of the temptation to cross that line, because with his power he couldn't be held to account by anyone. No few "Elseworlds"-type stories have shown Superman following that path to become a conscienceless monster.

I haven't seen either of those movies and I apologize. I must restate my position. Snyder's Superman could never be as good as Downey's Iron Man because Snyder will never be as good as the Russos and Kevin Feige and since Superman should be the example of pure goodness, his fans have a right to say that Snyder should not do Superman movies since he can't seem to get that.

 

I do the same thing when I say Paul Feige should never do Ghostbusters again.

CES

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