Extra Time Query

[Christopher R Taylor]

Under the rules as written on page 374 of the Hero System Rules (vol 1) Extra Time has this rule:

 

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While a character activates a power with Extra Time, he may take other actions (if not, the Limitation is worth an additional -¼; characters may not take this for the Full Phase or Delayed Phase versions of Extra Time).

 

Now I get why the Delayed Phase version wouldn't get the "can do nothing else" modifier, as they're unlikely to be doing anything else anyway.  But there is some room for debate there, and especially with full phase why can you not take that modifier?  If you can do nothing for your entire phase except this one action, how is that not worth an additional modifier?  What is the reasoning behind this other than perhaps "because then its too big a limitation"?

[Chris Goodwin]

Either it's already built in, or it's assumed to be like that because you can't logically do something else while you're activating it.  

 

Except... to activate a Power is normally a 0 Phase Action, so normally you'd be able to activate a 0 Phase Power and then do something else.  I think it's probably that that's assumed to be built in.  

 

Huh.  I don't think I've ever tried to dissect a Phase down like that.  I mean, logically there should be a difference between Extra Time as delayed strike (launch a missile, it takes the time to get there), Extra Time as delayed launch (push the button, wait, it does whatever it does after the wait time), both (push the button, wait, missile launches, takes time to hit), and ongoing procedure (start gesturing and incanting, continue gesturing and incanting until something happens).  The latter could also be combined with any of the above (start gesturing and incanting, fireball pops into existence, continue gesturing and incanting until fireball hits its target).  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well based on the rules as written you can do anything you want while the power is activating unless you take the additional limitation.  In fact, the rules state you can do any 0 phase actions before you start the power as well.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

An Extra Time: Full Phase power already prohibits the user from doing other Half/Full Phase Actions during that phase. 

"The character can perform Zero Phase Actions before he begins activating the power, but may not perform Half Phase Actions. "

[Christopher R Taylor]

That doesn't really address the issue though.  You can in theory define the extra time full phase to be an act that you can take no actions at all until it goes off.  You just don't get a limitation for it.  In the other, longer forms of extra time, you do.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

No, you explicitly cannot take that option on Full Phase.  Because you already can't do anything else while Full Phase acting. 

[eepjr24]

I think the way it is written the value is built in to assume no other half phase actions before it. With the longer times, it warrants more limitation value if you can do nothing else. But all of this is just speculation and Steve does not generally answer questions about why or how he came to a particular limitation value, which I think is a life saving move on his part.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Because you already can't do anything else while Full Phase acting.

 

...Other than zero phase and actions which take no time, right?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

14 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

...Other than zero phase and actions which take no time, right?

You are allowed to perform Zero Phase Actions before you begin the activation, and after as well unless the activation is somehow an attack action.  Non-actions aren't mentioned.  I struggle to conceive of a realistic scenario where neither performing the action before activating nor waiting until after activation will suffice. 

If you feel otherwise, please provide a reasonable case when not being able to take a Zero Phase Action or non-action during the activation would matter. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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If you feel otherwise, please provide a reasonable case when not being able to take a Zero Phase Action or non-action during the activation would matter. 

 

It matters as much in this case as it does during any other extra time activation, doesn't it?  I mean if I do one during a full phase activation or a one turn they're both restricted right?   Let's review what these actions are, for reference, from page 23 of the HSG, vol 2:

Actions which take no time:

Presence Attack

Make a roll at GM request

Make a Soliloquy

 

Zero Phase Actions:

Brace

Accelerating

Decelerating

Shift skill level

Shift a multipower slot

Turn off a power

Turn a power on

Use STR or a power casually

 

Seems like those are meaningful and useful, right?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Not during the activation of a power, no, they do not seem meaningful or useful.  I see absolutely no reason why any of those couldn't be done before. 

Please give me a concrete example of when it would matter that you do it during instead of immediately before (or after). 

[Hugh Neilson]

7 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Not during the activation of a power, no, they do not seem meaningful or useful.  I see absolutely no reason why any of those couldn't be done before. 

Please give me a concrete example of when it would matter that you do it during instead of immediately before (or after). 

 

I agree.  When would you need to brace, decelerate, activate or shut off a power, etc., during the full phase while you activate a power, rather than at the start of the phase, just before you start activating a full-phase power, or right after that power activates at the end of your phase?

 

Contrast with a power which takes a turn to activate - having no actions half a turn later to, say, use casual STR to break an entangle seems more limiting by itself, even without considering I have no more actions for the turn.  If anything, that extra -1/4 should scale up with the amount of time required.

[Doc Democracy]

I am SPD 4, I begin activating my teleport which takes a full phase to power up.  I begin doing that on segment 3 and expect it to be ready on segment 6.  On segment 4, my SPD 3 opponent fires a bullet at me.  I am low on STUN and do not want to go unconscious.  I want to turn on my desolidification but that is a zero phase action while I am activating a power.  Will the GM let me??

[eepjr24]

5 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

I am SPD 4, I begin activating my teleport which takes a full phase to power up.  I begin doing that on segment 3 and expect it to be ready on segment 6.  On segment 4, my SPD 3 opponent fires a bullet at me.  I am low on STUN and do not want to go unconscious.  I want to turn on my desolidification but that is a zero phase action while I am activating a power.  Will the GM let me??

Full Phase (-1/2) would still activate in segment 3. It takes your full phase but still goes off on the same phase (6e1, 376). If you mean Extra Phase  (-3/4) then it will activate on your Dex in segment 6, in which case your only alternative if you want to activate your Desolid would be to abort to it (6e1, 376; 6e2, 23), losing the END, if any, spent on the Teleport and paying additional END for the Desolid. 

 

You would also not be able to soliloquy to plead for your life, ask a team mate for help, make a presence attack to startle or cow your opponent, etc. Really, Full Phase seems like quite a deal at -1/2 on attack actions. For the most part it prevents you from doing a half move and that's it. For non-attack actions it seems about right and the genre will affect whether the Full Phase is a great value or just about right, since Superheroic needs movement less in many case with a prevalence of ranged attacks as compared to some Fantasy.

 

- E

[dsatow]

2 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I am SPD 4, I begin activating my teleport which takes a full phase to power up.  I begin doing that on segment 3 and expect it to be ready on segment 6.  On segment 4, my SPD 3 opponent fires a bullet at me.  I am low on STUN and do not want to go unconscious.  I want to turn on my desolidification but that is a zero phase action while I am activating a power.  Will the GM let me??

 

Sure.  6e1p374, last paragraph 

Quote

 

A character can stop activating his power at
any time simply by stopping his preparations, but
if he wants to use the power later, he has to start
from the beginning. For example, if a character
began an attack that would take a month to turn
on, he could stop the power at any point and use a
more immediate attack. However, by doing so he’d 

lose any preparations; if he wanted to turn on the
month-delayed power later, he’d have to start from
scratch.

 

 

BTW: that scenario uses extra phase not full phase.  Full phase would mean the only action you could do that segment is the teleport but you would teleport that segment.

[dsatow]

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

You would also not be able to soliloquy to plead for your life, ask a team mate for help, make a presence attack to startle or cow your opponent, etc.

 

I'd probably allow it but depending on the situation and usage would give you bonuses or minuses to you presence attack. 

 

Reasoning?  Anything I think I should be able to do for my villains, I should also allow my heroes to do.

 

Example 1:

Foxbat is starting up his foxbat mobile but has to manually crank up the motor on each leg.  While doing this he make a soliloquy "Wait until you see the awesome power of the Foxbat Mobile (tm) in New York!" (-3d6 Pre attack)

 

Example 2:

Dr. Destroyer is powering up his Orbital NEO Railgun.  While channeling the power through his suit to power the Railgun he makes a soliloquy "Wait until you see the awesome power of the Orbital Near Earth Object Railgun on New York!" (+3d6 Pre attack)

[Doc Democracy]

I am experiencing the feeling that we are not meaning the same thing when we say phase.

 

My understanding is that a phase is a variable amount of time.  I get as many phases in a turn as I have SPD.

 

To me my SPD 4 character has four phases of approximately 3 seconds (segments) each.

 

If I have a power that requires a full phase I expect to have to use it on the first possible segment of the phase and it activates as the last thing on the last possible segment of the phase.  To me, that is what makes the limitation worth it.

 

Doc

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 minute ago, Doc Democracy said:

I am experiencing the feeling that we are not meaning the same thing when we say phase.

 

My understanding is that a phase is a variable amount of time.  I get as many phases in a turn as I have SPD.

 

To me my SPD 4 character has four phases of approximately 3 seconds (segments) each.

 

If I have a power that requires a full phase I expect to have to use it on the first possible segment of the phase and it activates as the last thing on the last possible segment of the phase.  To me, that is what makes the limitation worth it.

 

Doc

The rules for what Full Phase means are very clear.  Now that you mention it, I strongly suspect a good deal of the confusion in this thread is some people knowing the rules-meaning and some people guessing at the rules-meaning from the words-meaning. 

"Full Phase (-½) means the power requires a character’s Full Phase to activate and use. The character can perform Zero Phase Actions before he begins activating the power, but may not perform Half Phase Actions. However, the power still activates on his DEX in the Phase; he isn’t required to wait until the end of the Phase to turn it on. "  All boldings mine. 

[Doc Democracy]

That is reasonably clear to me until I get to the point where it says it activates on his DEX in the phase.  My SPD 4 character acted on segment 3, his next action requires a full phase, what segment does it activate on?

 

Doc

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

50 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

That is reasonably clear to me until I get to the point where it says it activates on his DEX in the phase.  My SPD 4 character acted on segment 3, his next action requires a full phase, what segment does it activate on?

 

Doc

"The character’s SPD indicates which Segments he can take an Action in; these Segments are his Phases. "  Bolding again mine. 

If your character has exhausted their segment 3 phase and takes the desired Full Phase action as soon as possible, it will be taken, both beginning and ending, on his DEX on segment 6. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I suspect that part of the confusion is that when people think of something taking extra time of a full phase, then it goes off at the end of that phase, not whenever he'd normally use his powers that phase.  The only thing that sets it apart is not the time it takes to go off (counterintuitively) but that you can't take an half phase actions.  If the limitation was defined as "takes until the end of that phase to activate" then it would be much more clear and easy to understand and further would not require the automatic "well you just can't use half phase actions or its not actually a limitation."

 

As for the idea that nothing on that list of abilities is useful or would come up in a phase, al i can say it seems like maybe you haven't actually played this game very much if you've never had to change a multipower slot, do a presence attack, or use more than one power in a phase.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

8 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

As for the idea that nothing on that list of abilities is useful or would come up in a phase, al i can say it seems like maybe you haven't actually played this game very much if you've never had to change a multipower slot, do a presence attack, or use more than one power in a phase.

You are explicitly permitted to take Zero Phase Actions before a Full Phase Action.  You are explicitly able to take No time Actions after your phase ends. 

Everything on your list can be done before or after a Full Phase Action. 

I ask you again, why would any of those things need to be done during the Full Phase Action and not before or after? 

 

You seem to be staunchly ignoring that point.  Please address it. 

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

"The character’s SPD indicates which Segments he can take an Action in; these Segments are his Phases. "  Bolding again mine. 

If your character has exhausted their segment 3 phase and takes the desired Full Phase action as soon as possible, it will be taken, both beginning and ending, on his DEX on segment 6. 

Again, depending how I want to do it, my phase could be on 6, 7 or 8 then? The language is not as clear as you want it to be.  Segment 6 is not my phase, unless I want it to be.

 

I know that within the rules, all my action, including movement will take place within a single segment within, what I like to call, my phase. 🙂

 

I will continue, in my games, to ask that character using a full phase action to declare on the first segment of his phase and activate the power on his DEX on the last segment.

 

During that time, I will allow a zero phase action....

 

Doc

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

33 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Again, depending how I want to do it, my phase could be on 6, 7 or 8 then? The language is not as clear as you want it to be.  Segment 6 is not my phase, unless I want it to be.

 

I know that within the rules, all my action, including movement will take place within a single segment within, what I like to call, my phase. 🙂

 

I will continue, in my games, to ask that character using a full phase action to declare on the first segment of his phase and activate the power on his DEX on the last segment.

 

During that time, I will allow a zero phase action....

 

Doc

Your attitude makes it very clear you don't care what the RAW is, so I'll just say I hope your houserules are working well for your group. 

[Ternaugh]

18 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Your attitude makes it very clear you don't care what the RAW is, so I'll just say I hope your houserules are working well for your group. 

 

The RAW are merely suggestions, and are designed to be as detailed or as light as the GM and his party want it. I've primarily run FH since it came out in 1985, and my campaign uses rules drawn from 3rd through 6th Edition, as we see fit for the stories that we want to tell.

 

As the Hero System Rulebook for 4th Edition notes on p. 208:

 

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The main object of the game is for the players and the GM to have fun. We like to think of the Hero System as a Game Construction Set, where each GM can create his own unique campaign world...After all, you’ve paid your money for the game, so why shouldn’t you alter it any way you please?