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Arcane Combat Value

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18 hours ago, zslane said:

 

Sure I can. But if you're aiming your magic at a target, then as Phil says, OCV would still be involved. If the only answer to the question of what ACV represents is "it's magic," then it isn't needed; the existing CVs in the game will do just fine. In order to justify an entirely new CV 

 

I see.  Thank you. 

 

I mentioned earlier in this thread that I have done this akternative CV a few times before.  I will also say that it's a lot easier to do 6e-style-- credit where it's due and all that (though I do miss the nuanced feel of deriving from character aspects). 

 

The whole reason I did this initially was for a voodoo doll.  The hounjin wasn't throwing the doll at anyone.  He didn't even have to know or even be aware of the target or his location. 

 

All he had to know was how to manipulate magic such that it did the work for him. 

 

Thats where it started; it grew from there, tweaked and re-tweaked, and I almost got precisely what I wanted, but the "campaign" was really only a shirt story, planned and concluded in a half-dozen sessions. 

 

The principle might apply to Jotaro's Stand as well, if you didn't want a summon/Mind Control Summoned combo. 

 

The closest I got was deciding to allow "Magic CV" to target other CV, :

 

You can certainly dodge a Fireball and can willpower your way out of a Domination, after all. and that was a bit more problematic, as there were costing issues as I was using derivations from Characteristics.  As I noted, it would have been mechanically easier in 6e, where any CV has the same cost.

 

I don't know if that helps or not, but it's the reason I still tinker with it. 

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7 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I think the (well, a) reason for the dissent on the subject of having an Arcane CV is a gap in narrative understanding. 

 

 

I don't know where you found that bottle of Extremely Rational pills, but how about sharing some of them with the rest of us?   :lol:

 

Duke 

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9 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

+3 OCV with Fireball Spell, OAF Expendable (possibly difficult to obtain): a hair from the target's head (or presumably a similar bit of the target's body, in case he's bald, or is of a species that doesn't have hair)

 

Season to taste.

 

In that case, why do we bother with Mental Combat Value at all?  We could just have everyone buy OCV and DCV, with "only vs." or "not vs." Mental Powers, as appropriate. 

 

OCV and DCV represent nothing more than a character's ability to fight in the physical realm: weapons, fists, non-Mental Powers.  MCV represents a character's ability to fight with and against Mental Powers.  Arcane Combat Value should therefore represent a character's ability to fight with and against magic.

 

We don't tie OCV and DCV to DEX in 6th edition, and we don't tie MCV to EGO.  We can now apply whatever special effects to those that we want, and the GM will accept.  My fighter type can have high DEX and high OCV, or high STR, moderate to low DEX, and high OCV.  We can likewise have characters with high EGO and unmodified or reduced OMCV and DMCV, or low EGO and high MCV.  

 

What does ACV represent?  A character's ability to fight with and against magic, nothing more and nothing less.

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3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

In that case, why do we bother with Mental Combat Value at all?

For mental powers.  Is a fireball a mental power?  It a hair from a person's head a mind?  It's fine if that's the way you want to run your game.  And it's also fine if you want all mental powers to use normal OCV and DCV.  And instead of my suggested +OCV Based on Contagion, you could also make the fireball Based on MCV, which would also be a valid build.  It would seem a bit unusual to me, but if it works for your game, fine.  And like I said before, I wouldn't even object to playing in such a game.

 

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

OCV and DCV represent nothing more than a character's ability to fight in the physical realm: weapons, fists, non-Mental Powers.  MCV represents a character's ability to fight with and against Mental Powers.  Arcane Combat Value should therefore represent a character's ability to fight with and against magic.

OK, so the dragon's breath might miss the guy with high DCV, but the magic fireball will likely hit him because of his low ACV?  If the magic spell creates something in the physical realm (such as fire) to damage a target, is it magic, or something in the physical realm?  What about a telekinetic spell that picks up a nearby rock and hurls it at the target?  Is that magic, or in the physical realm?  Why does a character use DCV against a rock thrown by an arm, but ACV against a rock thrown by TK?

 

In most of the source material I'm familiar with, a wand is aimed similarly to a gun - the straight line of the wand can be extended in a straight line toward the target, the straight line of the gun barrel can be extended in a straight line toward the target.  And the character's OCV determines how accurately he can aim.  If ACV means nothing more than "It's magic" then it seems a bit arbitrary.  What counts as magic and what doesn't?  But as long as you can work out the answer to that question, it's perfectly fine to use in your game.

 

However, if we're specifically talking about targeting throw Contagion, or other similar principles (Sympathy, etc.), then yes, that might warrant a separate CV.  But it might not apply to all magical effects, and maybe shouldn't be called "Arcane Combat Value".  Maybe it's Contagion Combat Value, but that's not a very good name, and it should probably be broader than that, like "Voodoo Combat Value" or whatever you call that particular style/school of magic.  Thaumaturgical Combat Value?  TCV?  That works.

 

But if you can use your thaumaturgy to telekinetically pick up rocks and throw them at opponents, that seems more like a thaumaturgical connection to the rocks, rather than to the target.  So maybe this particular spell should use OCV/DCV.  Or if you have a spell that can be used "plain" or thaumaturgically, then it works with OCV/DCV, but if you have a hair from the target's head, then you can use TCV - which presumably is an advantage, because your TCV might be higher than your OCV, and your target's TCV is likely lower than his DCV.

 

And likewise, a character (likely someone with some magical nature, if not an actual spellcaster) can have a higher than average DTCV.  This can represent his inherent uniqueness, that he metaphysically "divorces" himself from the hair you plucked from his head.  There may be various "magical" creatures, fey, for example, that might have very high DTCV, while having relatively low OTCV, or perhaps no actual spells at all.

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On 12/4/2019 at 10:35 AM, Chris Goodwin said:

To whom do I need to justify it?

 

Justify in a design sense. When doing game design, a proposed mechanic needs to be justified on a design necessity basis. Every addition or change should pass a pretty rigorous test for soundness and necessity. That's all I meant.

 

As for sympathetic magic (Duke's example), I don't feel there is a CV-vs-CV combat roll involved in the first place. The vodoo doll is manipulated/damaged and the target feels it. Even if you had an ACV stat for the voodoo priest, there is no equivalent CV on the target that makes any sense to oppose it. There is no "to hit" involved here. An entirely different approach (other than Combat Rolls) is necessary for that, IMO.

 

This really feels like a larger subject: how to use the Hero System to represent magic systems. I don't object on principle to some new stat like ACV so long as it solves a problem that existing stats and powers don't already handle. So far I haven't heard of an example where that's the case.

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One thing that might be useful here, but doesn't exist (yet) in HERO AFAIK, is an advantage "Does not require a hit roll, automatically hits".  As long as I have this hair from your head, my spell will always hit you - no Dodge, no Dive for Cover, no range modifier, no concealment, etc.  The closest thing we have to that is One Hex Accurate + No Range Modifier, which allows you to target a DCV 3 hex instead of a character that may have higher DCV and be dodging or whatever.  But even that is subject to possible circumstance modifiers, such as low visibility or obstacles.

 

And with the general principle of HERO, there then needs to be some kind of special defense against this "NNDCV".  If you don't allow a OTCV and DTCV, then there should be some other means of protection from thaumaturgical forces.

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