Signature Setting

[Scott Ruggels]

On 5/23/2019 at 7:34 PM, assault said:

 

I don't think personal websites are as common any more as they were then, so at one level that's not a problem. But, on the other hand, blogs have replaced them to a far extent, and where are the Hero System blogs?

 

Of course, at that point I have to ask: where is my Hero System blog? Hmm.

Facebook, as a walled garden, and Twitter as a notification system replaced personal blogs. Of the old blog sites, few are left. Before those blogs though were even more in depth articles in ‘zines. Those were completely gone around the time the Twin Towers fell. 

[Diamond Spear]

So I’ve been kicking around the idea of putting together a “basic” or “introduction” booklet for a superhero setting. It would use the Hero toolkit but hide 90% of it by using pre-built powers, skill and talent/perk blocks and character creation that is greatly simplified. I’ve even got the framework of a setting in mind. If anyone is interested  in collaborating on such a project drop me a PM and I’ll be happy to provide more detail. 

[Spence]

On 5/29/2019 at 11:47 AM, Diamond Spear said:

So I’ve been kicking around the idea of putting together a “basic” or “introduction” booklet for a superhero setting. It would use the Hero toolkit but hide 90% of it by using pre-built powers, skill and talent/perk blocks and character creation that is greatly simplified. I’ve even got the framework of a setting in mind. If anyone is interested  in collaborating on such a project drop me a PM and I’ll be happy to provide more detail. 

 

Don't forget an actual adventure or short mini-campaign that can be played "out of the box".  A few pre-gen heroes as both examples and playable in the adventure would help too. 

[megaplayboy]

I wouldn't mind seeing sourcebooks on the Silver, Bronze and Iron/Dark/Modern Ages.  

[megaplayboy]

Another thing that might be interesting--I've noticed a few fantasy RPG supplements that basically pitch an entire campaign, from beginner through the highest levels, in one book.  You could do this in Hero system as well:

--Champions--from street heroes to cosmic protectors

--Fantasy Hero--from green adventurers to legendary questers

etc.

[Diamond Spear]

True but I think those products need to follow the streamlined “introductory” rule-set I was talking about. I know I started the thread talking about a signifier setting but the more I think about it the more I believe we first need to get people willing to try the game and I think a basic rule set is the best way to go about it. 

[Spence]

13 hours ago, Diamond Spear said:

 but the more I think about it the more I believe we first need to get people willing to try the game and I think a basic rule set is the best way to go about it. 

 

Yes, but a clarification is needed.  Hero has cranked out multiple sets of rules from huge to small.  There already exists a bare minimum 6th Edition rule book.  The problem is Hero rulebooks are not playable as they are.  Hero rulebooks are basically design documents that can be used to create a game.  What is really needed is a "set" that would allow a brand new player to buy the box on Monday, read it Tuesday and run a intro session on Wednesday. 

 

Too many people don't understand that building characters, NPCs and such is not the objective and is not playing. 

 

Running a PC in an adventure is playing.

[Lord Liaden]

I agree that's what the majority of gamers expect from a game. But building characters, NPCs and such has always been a sub-game within Hero, one of its distinctive elements enjoyed by a significant fraction of us Hero players.

[Chris Goodwin]

Providing pregens doesn't mean you can't create your own. 

[zslane]

If new (non-Hero) players are a major target demographic, then you can't focus too much on an element they don't have any attachment to (yet). You have to lure them in with something else first (like the setting) and then get them hooked on the system (and tangential activities like character building) as they play in it.

[assault]

PS238 came close to being a "playable out of the box" version of 5e Champions.

 

It probably suffered a bit from being based on a fairly obscure license, plus the playing kids aspect.

 

It still would probably be a good starting point for the kind of game we are talking about.

Or... we could have a look at the basic set for the Marvel Super Heroes game from the 80s. Basically, it had a book explaining how to play the game that wasn't much more than an example combat, with lots of art. Of course that approach works best with a boxed set, rather than as part of a 200+ page book.

[Spence]

51 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

I agree that's what the majority of gamers expect from a game. But building characters, NPCs and such has always been a sub-game within Hero, one of its distinctive elements enjoyed by a significant fraction of us Hero players.

 

True. 

But regardless of whether nothing is done or if there is an actual attempt to attract new fans, the "we build stuff" people will not be affected.  If your idea of a game is just builds, then you are basically done with Hero. You have your rulebook (edition of preference) and have no need of any other purchase. 

 

Now those of use that would like to one day actually see Hero books, adventures and such on actual game store shelves again, or even available to order from our FLGS would like to see something that actually tries to get new players.

 

To do that someone needs to admit that players like to play and actually put out something they can play. 

1) Get them playing a game using Hero rules and prepackaged abilities/powers/etc.

2) Once they have actually played the game, go "Pist! Sailor, would you like to try and customize?"

 

The building sub-game can be fun.  But sitting in a proverbial corner by your lonesome does little to nothing for attracting new players.

 

Show them how to PLAY.

Get them to enjoy PLAYING.

And introducing them to building their own stuff sells itself. 

 

Start with "here is an arcane collection of build rules that we promise you can build a game from" and the majority of gamers that struggle to free up a few hours a week or even month to play are going to apply that tiny number of hours to a game that they can play right off. 

 

We are seeing the demise of Hero in real time. 

It can stay the present course and its staunch unwavering tiny tiny tiny and ever shrinking old guard. 

Or we can go "Zounds!"  Let's try something different and try to attract new players.

 

The traditional methods may already be out of reach, so maybe the non-traditional methods along the same line as D&D's Dungeon Masters Guild. It resembles a limited open license in that it allows people to create and publish material as long as they use the provided guidelines and only post for sale on D&D's Dungeon Masters Guild  store on DriveThruRPG.  They have gained the benefit of hundreds of adventures with zero cost to WotC.  This has allowed them to sell books and be able to create one or two "official" campaigns a year without worrying about the "gaps".

[Spence]

10 minutes ago, assault said:

PS238 came close to being a "playable out of the box" version of 5e Champions.

 

It probably suffered a bit from being based on a fairly obscure license, plus the playing kids aspect.

 

It still would probably be a good starting point for the kind of game we are talking about.

Or... we could have a look at the basic set for the Marvel Super Heroes game from the 80s. Basically, it had a book explaining how to play the game that wasn't much more than an example combat, with lots of art. Of course that approach works best with a boxed set, rather than as part of a 200+ page book.

 

Actually, it suffered from being a very obscure license about grade school kids.  Very few of the gamers I knew at the time wanted to play 12 year olds.  

 

But looking for a "license" to magically save the day won't work.  You need a generic easy to plug in adventure/min-campaign that is designed for newly built characters with zero experience.  

 

Shades of Black is my favorite Champions module.  But it only works as a one shot or for campaigns that not only have signature Champions in the campaign, but the players need to be familiar with Talisman and Black Paladin.  If the campaign has no magic or at least none active, then working it in gets harder.  Most of the published adventures show that are from someones campaign or heavily influenced.   But they are too specialized for easy use. 

 

Something simple. 

A villain has a plan to attack city hall and kill the mayor.

He hires GRAB to perform a series of heists to steal the needed components (jewels, tech devices, etc).  GRAB are thieves not killers.

At the same time he has hired super-mercs (supervillains) to also perform a series of assassinations of key people that could endanger the villains plans staged to look like heists. 

The Heroes have to stop the robberies, discover the assassinations and the villain master plan and stop it.

All for characters built on 350pts(5th Ed) or 400pts (6th Ed).  Provide a pregen team of basic archetypes (Brick, Martial Artist, Energy Projector, Power Suit, Gadgeteer).  Nothing fancy, just something so new players can run around and hero while seeing how powers, skills and stuff behave in play.  How the rules actually work.  Have some battles, save some people and play heroes. 

 

After that they can try their hand at their own hero. 

 

But...but....but that is too simple! Gasp! No one would ever run an adventure based on robberies!!!

 

 

 

[Lord Liaden]

I believe it might be worth packaging some or all of the Champions adventures from Digital Hero. Most of them were intended for convention games, and could be run in one or two sessions. They all include NPCs with character artwork, and maps, and several even have pre-generated PCs if you want to use them. The character sheets and other game mechanics would just need to be updated to Sixth Edition.

[Toxxus]

On 6/4/2019 at 4:31 PM, megaplayboy said:

Another thing that might be interesting--I've noticed a few fantasy RPG supplements that basically pitch an entire campaign, from beginner through the highest levels, in one book.  You could do this in Hero system as well:

--Champions--from street heroes to cosmic protectors

--Fantasy Hero--from green adventurers to legendary questers

etc.

 

The Pathfinder adventure paths are broken up into 6 smaller books, but take the heroes from level 1 through to level 20 on an epic story arc.  Like an episodic TV show each book has its own story arc which ties into a larger arc that spans the length of the heroes development from relative newbies to legendary beings of near godlike power.

[zslane]

I'd avoid adventures like the modern D&D ones where so much is on rails. I like the approach of Savage Worlds' Plot Point campaigns where there is an overall epic plot with places to insert quests and things. But the whole thing is woven loosely enough that the GM doesn't have to force the flow of play in a fixed narrative direction. I feel that the rule of thumb should always be: "The story (of an adventure or campaign) is what ends up happening given all the player choices, not what is supposed to happen according to some overly-specified and rigid plot blueprint."

[Spence]

4 hours ago, zslane said:

I'd avoid adventures like the modern D&D ones where so much is on rails. I like the approach of Savage Worlds' Plot Point campaigns where there is an overall epic plot with places to insert quests and things. But the whole thing is woven loosely enough that the GM doesn't have to force the flow of play in a fixed narrative direction. I feel that the rule of thumb should always be: "The story (of an adventure or campaign) is what ends up happening given all the player choices, not what is supposed to happen according to some overly-specified and rigid plot blueprint."

Well to be fair, campaigns usually have objectives.  If not, it is just a sandbox.  

 

I have several Plot Points as well as Adventure Paths and D&D Adventure Books. For the campaign part all three are basically following the same broad layout.  A series of 6 to 12 scenarios/encounters leading to a "epic" climax.

 

All three precede the "campaign" with setting information, any rule changes or setting specific game mechanic notes and advice on running the campaign.

 

The only thing that really sets the Plot Points apart is they are each set in unique mini-settings.

 

But meeting the objective of the campaign is not railroading. 

 

Of course there are a lot of D&D and Pathfinder DM's that don't understand how to run campaigns.  They seem to think the players must go from encounter to encounter in lockstep. 

 

The D&D revamp of Ravensloft was well done.  But much what made it good was lost because of the DM running only the major encounter points in a rigid chain. 

 

Disappointing, but not unexpected in the current gaming world.  At least in the gaming world I observe daily

[Hugh Neilson]

There is a line between "adventure", which does include likely encounters, even if they are not fixed, and a "setting" where there are a variety of potential adventures, which the PCs may or may not choose to engage with, and the GM is left to flesh out, if not design entirely, the aspects the players choose to interact with.  At one extreme, there is the linear, encounter by encounter, railroad.  At the other is a vast setting and wherever the PCs go, so be it - if the first thing they stumble across as novices is the Lair of the Arch-Lich, well, maybe the next ones will live long enough to have two encounters.  And if they decide to leave the whole campaign setting, the GM can just write a new one.

 

Maybe they wanted to be super bank robbers, not super heroes.  So be it.

 

Sometimes, the sandbox is no fun for players either - one of the best descriptions I have heard is the sandbox becoming the rowboat.  "You are in a rowboat in a vast open featureless sea.  What do you do?"

 

Just as many of us as GMs have lives that preclude devoting the time to build the game world and the adventure up from scratch, many of us as players do not have the time to devote to study an extensive campaign backstory to build characters with goals integrated to both the setting and the other PCs and dictate the course of campaign events.  Build characters who want to follow adventure hoods, rather than characters whose goals, objectives and personalities leave them no desire to be involved with the game. 

 

When Player C announces that "My character's ambition is to live a peaceful life and run a small tea shoppe.  He is not interested in anything that does not directly further that goal.", he has no right to be offended when Players A, B, D  and E note that "Our characters are setting out for a life of piracy on the High Seas, like the one paragraph campaign summary we all agreed to indicated.  I guess we will see yours later, maybe, if and when we return to this port."

 

I would suggest that Hero is a better system than D&D for a sandbox-type game, as it does not have (or at least does not embed - it can certainly simulate) the steep power curve of D&D.

[assault]

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Just as many of us as GMs have lives that preclude devoting the time to build the game world and the adventure up from scratch, many of us as players do not have the time to devote to study an extensive campaign backstory to build characters with goals integrated to both the setting and the other PCs and dictate the course of campaign events.  Build characters who want to follow adventure hoods, rather than characters whose goals, objectives and personalities leave them no desire to be involved with the game.

 

This is a case where the lower number of Complication points in 6e is a good thing. Characters can be a little more generic, which is a good thing in a plug and play sense, if not in a high drama/deep immersion way.

 

A plug and play superhero, for example, might only need a Psych Complication (motivation/personality), a Vulnerability (weakness), a Hunted (arch-enemy) and maybe one or two other things to make up the 75 points they need.

 

Of those, really only the Hunted is setting dependent. It might be best for them to be picked out of a pre-approved list.

The vulnerability should probably be matched with a villain that uses the appropriate attack form. There's another Hunted right there.

 

Or they might have a Secret ID and a DNPC instead, or...

Secret ID's and DNPCs tend to tie characters to particular geographical locations, and ideally should lead to a bit of soap opera, which makes them less than ideal for campaigns that routinely take characters to distant locations, lost worlds, other planets, different dimensions and so on. And, naturally, ideal for high interpersonal interaction games.

[Hugh Neilson]

Not sure why you selected that particular comment to quote.  However, a "guide for players" of the adventure path would assist in scoping out disadvantages - possible Watched and Hunteds, perhaps some prominent NPCs who could make good DNPCs or Contacts in various capacities (or that these should be avoided for this setting), providng values (and, by extension, frequency)  of certain vulnerabilities and susceptibilities, etc.  Certain skills, backgrounds and jobs could also be suggested.  Obviously, a Novice Teen Heroes game would not see a lot of PCs who are MDs or famous trial lawyers, and locals as secret IDs or DNPCs would be unsuitable in a Galactic Champions game, but a setting guide can be much more detailed.

 

 

[assault]

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Not sure why you selected that particular comment to quote. 

 

I'll repeat the quote, cut back to the essential element.

 

On 6/9/2019 at 12:12 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

many of us as players do not have the time to devote to study an extensive campaign backstory to build characters with goals integrated to both the setting and the other PCs

 

So we should either use pre-gens, or characters that aren't integrated in this way.

6e makes the latter relatively easy.

[Spence]

1 hour ago, assault said:

8 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Not sure why you selected that particular comment to quote. 

 

I'll repeat the quote, cut back to the essential element.

 

On 6/8/2019 at 7:12 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

many of us as players do not have the time to devote to study an extensive campaign backstory to build characters with goals integrated to both the setting and the other PCs

 

So we should either use pre-gens, or characters that aren't integrated in this way.

6e makes the latter relatively easy.

 

All true except for the last statement, I'll fix it.

 

"All editions of Hero make the latter relatively easy". 

 

[assault]

10 minutes ago, Spence said:

 

All true except for the last statement, I'll fix it.

 

"All editions of Hero make the latter relatively easy". 

 

 

My point about 6th is that lower Complication point totals are the default/standard.

 

This makes making "generic" characters relatively easy compared to other editions.

[Spence]

3 hours ago, assault said:

 

My point about 6th is that lower Complication point totals are the default/standard.

 

This makes making "generic" characters relatively easy compared to other editions.

 

OK. 

 

I never had those issues, at least that I noticed.  

But then I'm not you.

[Spence]

So reading this thread I noticed that I may not be on the same page as others.  So here is a quick run down on the definitions I use for various things.

 

A Setting.  

This is a reference for an city/area/region/world.   A setting does not have actual playable adventures, just the general information that can be used to create adventures.  Hudson City, Valdorian Age, Tula Morn, Champions/Champions Universe, Turakian Age are all examples of Setting Books.  You cannot play a setting out of the box.

 

An Adventure.

A single story arc.  It can be a single encounter or a short string of them, though not usually longer than 3 or 4 sessions.  It usually has a single unified theme or story line.   Goblin Raiders, a series of bank robberies, a kidnapping.

For an experienced GM, an adventure can be impromptu, taking little to no prep up maybe an hour if you need an actual map or prop.  

 

A Campaign.

A larger scale story usually containing multiple storylines and arcs.  Campaigns have a purposeful beginning and end.  In campaigns the Heroes foil the Dark Lord or thwart a Supervillain's plans to destroy a city.  

For experienced or new GM's, a campaign is the result of far more planning and work.  Campaigns take time to design/prepare.

 

A Plot Point/Adventure Path campaign.

These are combination products that combine a small setting with a campaign.  More and more of professionally published campaigns follow this format.  D&D, Pathfinder, Call of Cthulhu, Trail of Cthulhu, Mutants and Masterminds and more have all have released this kind of campaigns.  

Sandbox campaign.

A setting with a few encounters and plot seeds, but no real theme/story/purpose.   The players wander about randomly doing whatever and the GM scrambles to make it interesting.  Lots of random encounter charts and ad-libing based on location names and plot seeds in the setting guide.

 

A personal note on "Railroading". 

In the past I have actually been in games that the GM was railroading.  They would not allow any deviation from a narrow prepared script.

But in the last 10 or so years all of the claims of it I have witnessed were BS by worthless players that either didn't know what roleplaying was or were self centered liars.  I can't really express my true feelings on a public board. 

 

GM: Hey I have been working on a campaign I'd like to run.  Anyone interested?

Players: Sure, what is it.

GM: It is a Heroes Quest with the party all being Holy Knights and other members the Order.  Clerics and such.  All the PC's are of the Light (good guys) versus the Dark (evil).  What do you think.

Dick: Can you play an Assassin?

GM: not in this game.

Tom, Bob, Sara and Sue: Sure sounds good.

Dick: well OK, I'm in.

GM: cool let me know what your characters will be so I can finish last minute details.  (GM jots down character description notes).

GM: Go ahead and build your initial characters and we'll adjust them for play and I'll answer any questions at that time.

Players: OK, we'll be there.

Time passes until first session...

GM: everyone got their character?

Tom:  Ranger here

Sara: Cleric

Bob: Knight

Sue: Paladin

Dick: Knight. 

GM: Great, lets look over them and then we can start.

 

Or how things happen for whiny dishonest players.

GM: everyone got their character?

Tom:  Ranger here

Sara: Cleric

Bob: Knight

Sue: Paladin

Dick: Assassin

GM:  Assassin?  Dick we already went over this, the campaign is for good guy heroes and assassins don't fit. 

Dick: BS, there are hero assassins.  Besides you said I could.

GM: No I didn't.  I specifically told you Assassin don't work.  

Dick: this is BS, I want to play an assassin.  It is MY game and you have to.

GM: No.  If you want an assassin game I'll be glad to make a character and play in your game.  But this game is not it.

Dick: you're an as......... and storms out

the next few days have social media and forums clogged with Dick ranting about being railroaded and how the GM is a (insert expletive of choice)

 

The reality is that players have forgotten how much work it takes to prep adventures and don't realize that if the campaign/adventure is not to their taste, then just decline to join the game.   Don't like it, don't play. 

 

Sorry for the rant.  But I have become very tired of poor players constantly whining about "railroading" when it is really a reflection of their own dishonesty.

 

I run a lot of investigation based games.  An investigation game requires actual preparation and clues to help solve the mystery. 

In a very broad sense, an investigative game comes in two flavors. First, something happened (a murder, theft, etc) and you are trying discover "who done it" and second, it is an ongoing plot that players need to figure out what is happening and stop it from happening. 

 

The second type is far more fun than the first, but takes a lot more work to build.

An investigation plot will have a timeline and events that occur on that time line. 

The players will investigate and discover clues.

An investigation will have multiple prebuilt encounters and red herrings.

Since it is well known that players will go in directions no GM can predict, a good investigation requires the GM to be able to think on their feet to both ad lib as well as shift and retool pre-built encounters on the fly to meet the players.

 

But in the end, if the players are in a game as investigators trying capture a serial killer in London.  Then they need to do that, not suddenly decide to fly to New Orleans for Mardi Gras.

 

A GM has the responsibility to run a fun game. 

The players have the responsibility to play the game they agreed to. 

When I get invited to play in a game, if it is something I am not interested in or a genre setting I play poorly, I decline.  It isn't difficult.

 

end rant.