Cheesy-munchkiny builds you've seen?

[PhilFleischmann]

I had a player many editions ago, that would calculate all his power limitations so that the point cost would always end in .5, or as close as possible to that, so it would round down.  Then he would put powers in a Multipower, so the cost of the fixed slots would also end in .5 or close to it, so they round down again.  He was not so brazen as to give himself an extra point of END or COM for free, by rounding down the half-point.

 

This same player would also buy his Disadvantages (Complications) in ways that were the least likely to affect him.  He would buy defenses against his Vulnerabilities and Susceptibilities, for example.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

7 minutes ago, PhilFleischmann said:

He would buy defenses against his Vulnerabilities and Susceptibilities, for example.

I've always thought this was self-defeating.  You only get so many Disadvantage points and buying a power just to mitigate a Disadvantage means you're out points compared to taking a Disadvantage that doesn't need mitigation (Code Versus Something-Genre-Inappropriate is always a good pick). 

The sole exception was when the mitigation was inherently useful, like taking Spatial Awareness with all the bells and whistles to mitigate being blind.  And then it's less buying a power to soften a Disadvantage and more buying a Disadvantage that's less relevant because of your powers. 

 

If I've heard correctly, weren't earlier edition characters built with unlimited Disadvantage points with diminishing returns?  Was the "Buy a Disadvantage, buy it off" approach point-efficient back then? 

[Duke Bushido]

They were technically limited: you could have a limit of six from each "category", and only the first two gave full value.  The next two were half, the next two were quarter. 

 

No; I spoke incorrectly.  You could have an unlimited number from any category; only the first six provided points to spend. 

 

As far as cheese, I think my favorite - it's not the worst or most cheezy thing I've ever seen; it was just so damned delightful that when it was submitted to me I almost allowed it just for the sheer novelty:  

 

STR and killing attack bought with "affects desolid." 

 

Desolidification, usable as attack, area of effect (don't remember the area). 

 

As you are no doubt aware, very few people without Desolid purchase any of their abilities with "affects solid." 

 

To this day it makes me grin just a bit to remember "the Vaporizor!". (exclamation point and '-or' spelling not optional) 

 

 

[dsatow]

in 5e (or was it 4e) UMA designing new styles/maneuvers:

 

Guy made his own martial maneuver:  Something like a block +2 OCV +3 DCV, +4d6+v/5 damage, full move, grab 4 limbs +20 str, target thrown to the ground.  All for only 27 points.

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

10 minutes ago, dsatow said:

in 5e (or was it 4e) UMA designing new styles/maneuvers:

 

Guy made his own martial maneuver:  Something like a block +2 OCV +3 DCV, +4d6+v/5 damage, full move, grab 4 limbs +20 str, target thrown to the ground.  All for only 27 points.

 

When the GM allows you to break the rules, you can get cheesetacular indeed. 

Had one guy in my group (character thankfully retired) who put all his powers into a "this is how my body works" Element Control then made everything Innate, even buying Costs END and Cost 0 END just to get powers that normally don't cost END in and Innate. 

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, dsatow said:

in 5e (or was it 4e) UMA designing new styles/maneuvers:

 

Guy made his own martial maneuver:  Something like a block +2 OCV +3 DCV, +4d6+v/5 damage, full move, grab 4 limbs +20 str, target thrown to the ground.  All for only 27 points.

 

Please the original Ninja Hero with the VERY optional rules allowed you to buy abort for your strike maneuver-1 pt.

[Ninja-Bear]

I was told from my last game that having Desolid and Invisible to Sight and and Sound group was cheesy.

[Tech]

I'm looking through some of these and am thinking: are these book legal? Yes. Are they powerful, even very-powerful? Yes. Cheesy? Mmm, not really.

[Duke Bushido]

7 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Please the original Ninja Hero with the VERY optional rules allowed you to buy abort for your strike maneuver-1 pt.

 

For what it's worth, I liked that enough as an idea that I ran with to create a block-based counterstrike Maneuver. 

[ScottishFox]

58 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

For what it's worth, I liked that enough as an idea that I ran with to create a block-based counterstrike Maneuver. 

 

This is a BIG deal.  The action economy shift from block this phase and attack next phase to block & attack this phase is massive.

 

One of the guys at my FH table made a polearm master with a triggered HTH attack that I had to limit to 1x per phase initially (eventually allowed 2x later in the campaign).  It is very strong.

 

Action economy is one area where I see savvy players go hard in.  Breakfall, acrobatics, fast draw, etc.

[Duke Bushido]

It's not as big a deal as you might think (at least, it hasn't proven terribly popular outside of martial artist or the occasional "light fighter" with a sword), largely I expect because I don't allow it for ranged attacks. 

 

The intent must be declared before the opponents to-hit is resolved. 

 

Defender suffers -3 penalty to OCV, which he is using to defend.  If he fails to defend, he cannot counter attack.  If he succeeds, he may _attempt_ to counter attack.  If he is successful, yay, him.  If he fails (he is still under a - 3 OCV), then has made himself "open": he is 1/2 DCV and unable to reallocate skill levels until his next phase. 

 

I don't do "overall skill levels" in my games, but I do allow skill levels with the weapon at hand to apply to the OCV of the counter-attacker.  I have also allowed spectacular rolls on Analyze Style to contribute to the counterstrike. 

 

This is for heroic level games.   It's not too terribly "huge" because most players aren't happy about being at 1/2 DCV on the chance they fail. 

 

It's not especially cheap, but it is considerably cheaper than doing a "weapon+STR" 's worth of killing attack in a damage shield.  Frankly, it should be: it has drawbacks, and doesn't automatically hit because your opponent touched you. 

[ScottishFox]

That does sound less OP than the Trigger version (FH Complete: Riposte) which is basically a free counter-attack whenever you successfully block.

 

You could use the exact same model to just Trigger a counter-attack each and every time you're attacked in melee range for more cheese.  Convert it to a Triggered RKA for even more fun.

[Surrealone]

On 1/7/2020 at 2:25 PM, PhilFleischmann said:

I had a player many editions ago, that would calculate all his power limitations so that the point cost would always end in .5, or as close as possible to that, so it would round down.  Then he would put powers in a Multipower, so the cost of the fixed slots would also end in .5 or close to it, so they round down again.  He was not so brazen as to give himself an extra point of END or COM for free, by rounding down the half-point.

Given that catching the round was actually explained/shown to players via the rules as written (specifically as demonstrated in 2nd Edition via the Goodman School of Cost Effectiveness blurbs), this is part/parcel of the game.  While you may consider it munchkiny, players and GMs, alike - in virtually every game in which I've participated, tend to crunch their characters like this for efficiency.

Getting maximum value for every point spent may seem munchkiny to you, but I'd argue that it's thoughtful, diligent, cost-effective character creation.  So did the original game designers, it seems.  Again, I cite the Goodman School of Cost Effectiveness blurbs from 2nd Edition as evidence, thereof.

[Duke Bushido]

Quite right, Scottish Fox. 

 

I was looking to build a cheese-free Maneuver- something with some risk- to allow players to show off their skills, but still carry that element of danger (a "mini-series" musketeer-type game). 

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Surrealone said:

Getting maximum value for every point spent may seem munchkiny to you, but I'd argue that it's thoughtful, diligent, cost-effective character creation.  So did the original game designers, it seems.  Again, I cite the Goodman School of Cost Effectiveness blurbs from 2nd Edition as evidence, thereof.

And I’d suggest this is why certain rules where changed over the editions. The biggest probably is in 4th Endurance went from ACT/5 to ACT/10. Also the base assumption for Characters in fourth is now 250 Points. I believe this move (which is continued through 5th/6th) is so you can create characters with more of an eye to create character concept than point efficiency.

[Cassandra]

Most of the builds based on Marvel Characters, especially the X-Men.  Because their powers aren't reliable they powers can only be created with either limitations or side effects.

 

Cyclops Energy Blast always being on comes to mind.  Dazzler can only use her powers if they is sound for her to convert to light, although she does carry a radio with her (And roller skates.)

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

44 minutes ago, Cassandra said:

Most of the builds based on Marvel Characters, especially the X-Men.  Because their powers aren't reliable they powers can only be created with either limitations or side effects.

 

Cyclops Energy Blast always being on comes to mind.  Dazzler can only use her powers if they is sound for her to convert to light, although she does carry a radio with her (And roller skates.)

Huh.  Those seem like pretty reasonable Limitations to apply to powers, what was it that pushed them into cheeseville? 

[BoloOfEarth]

8 hours ago, Cassandra said:

Most of the builds based on Marvel Characters, especially the X-Men.  Because their powers aren't reliable they powers can only be created with either limitations or side effects.

 

Cyclops Energy Blast always being on comes to mind.  Dazzler can only use her powers if they is sound for her to convert to light, although she does carry a radio with her (And roller skates.)

 

7 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Huh.  Those seem like pretty reasonable Limitations to apply to powers, what was it that pushed them into cheeseville? 

 

For me, Dazzler herself was born and raised in Cheeseville.  It's like someone said, "We need a disco-based character, because all the kids are into that disco stuff.  So what can we do?"  "I dunno, how about someone on roller skates?  I mean, sure, Iron Man's rocket skates were the lamest thing he had..."  "Lets have her convert sound to light, so she's a walking, er, I mean skating disco ball?" 

[SteveZilla]

On 5/25/2019 at 9:40 PM, Lucius said:

Chedarification:  (Total: 20 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Severe Transform 1d6-1 (Target into cheddar cheese, Dispel), Partial Transform (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (13-16 damage increments, damage occurs every 1 Day, can be negated by Dispel; -1 1/2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Cheesecloth; -1), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Incantations ("Easy breezy super-cheesy, you'll be much better when you're cheddar!"; -1/4), Reduced Penetration (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) END cost: 2

 

Over the course of a couple of weeks the target will transform slowly

 

1st stage: smells like cheese

2nd stage: turns yellow, attractive to rodents

3rd stage: develops the taste and consistency of cheddar cheese; has Psychological Complication, Miser

4th stage: turns into a wheel of cheddar

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a cheesy palindromedary tagline

 

4th stage victims:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXTNNraFDU

[Cassandra]

5 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

 

For me, Dazzler herself was born and raised in Cheeseville.  It's like someone said, "We need a disco-based character, because all the kids are into that disco stuff.  So what can we do?"  "I dunno, how about someone on roller skates?  I mean, sure, Iron Man's rocket skates were the lamest thing he had..."  "Lets have her convert sound to light, so she's a walking, er, I mean skating disco ball?" 

 

Which came first, Dazzler or Xanadu?

[Lord Liaden]

I did something relatively cheesy for my personal rewrite of the Champions villain, Valak the World-Ravager (CV3). He's a very strong brick with some Mental Powers, and a huge HKA through his OAF halberd. I broke the halberd out into a Multipower of HKA with more Advantages: a few different AOE, and Range with Line of Sight. The most munchkiny slot had AOE of 4 meters radius (+1/4), then MegaScale out to a radius of 400 kilometers. I wanted him to actually be more of a world-ravager. 😈  The HKA approach let me pile on DCs without having to make the Multipower itself excessively large, by taking advantage of Valak's high STR. (The SFX is bursts of energy which Valak can "accelerate" for more destructiveness by swinging or thrusting his halberd.)

 

Of course this was for a NPC villain, PCs don't ride quite that wide-open.

[Tjack]

7 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

 

For me, Dazzler herself was born and raised in Cheeseville.  It's like someone said, "We need a disco-based character, because all the kids are into that disco stuff.  So what can we do?"  "I dunno, how about someone on roller skates?  I mean, sure, Iron Man's rocket skates were the lamest thing he had..."  "Lets have her convert sound to light, so she's a walking, er, I mean skating disco ball?" 

     You’re pretty close, back then Stan Lee set up a deal with Casablanca Records, who at that time were big on cross promotional deals. (The Sgt. Pepper movie with the Bee Gees and that movie with the Village People for instance.) So Marvel would create a female Disco superhero who’s powers created a huge light show, guest star her in all their books and the record company would put some pretty background singer under contract to do concerts and pound away albums.

    So Marvel created Dazzler and debuted her in X-Men in what would be the same issue that first featured Kitty Pride and the White Queen and was the first chapter of the Dark Phoenix/Hellfire Club saga. From there she bounced around a few other books trying to gain some traction as something other than a joke when Casablanca pretty much folded up its tent and went away.  (Cocaine binges only last so long)

 

[Matt the Bruins]

Hey, Dazzler's still around, unlike dozens of other Marvel characters that have been invented to synergize with their particular decade of origin and then forgotten over the last 40 years.

[Tjack]

12 hours ago, Matt the Bruins said:

Hey, Dazzler's still around, unlike dozens of other Marvel characters that have been invented to synergize with their particular decade of origin and then forgotten over the last 40 years.

  I’m not trying to trash Dazzler, sometimes good stuff can come out of a contrived beginning.  Take the Monkees for example.  I love their music, but they were built as TV network’s version of the Beatles.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 1/9/2020 at 6:23 AM, BoloOfEarth said:

 

 

For me, Dazzler herself was born and raised in Cheeseville.  It's like someone said, "We need a disco-based character, because all the kids are into that disco stuff.  So what can we do?"  "I dunno, how about someone on roller skates?  I mean, sure, Iron Man's rocket skates were the lamest thing he had..."  "Lets have her convert sound to light, so she's a walking, er, I mean skating disco ball?" 

 

As opposed to "hey, let's have a guy grow big feathered wings and be able to fly - we'll call him Angel"?

 

I think she was a disco-based character when introduced because most of the music industry was disco-based, so a musician looking for that big break was pretty likely to go for a disco look.  Roller skates were enjoying a resurgence, so she had roller skates.  The roller skates didn't last all that long, unlike the very serious, street level "Night Thrasher" using a skateboard throughout his published career.