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Change Environment: Stunning


Uthanar
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Here is an example from my character Haunted ,his girlfriend is a ghost who aids and protects him
 

1) My girlfriend is bansihde keening your death: Change Environment (-5 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll, Long-Lasting 1 Turn, Stunning), Area Of Effect (16m Cone; +½), Thin Cone (-¼) (59 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses less than a fourth of its effectiveness (Vs Pre not Con; -0) 0

 

 

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Its definitely one for GMs to use with caution, since you can just lay it on someone and keep it there as long as you have END to spend, and not so expensive it is problematic.  For 60 active points (usual campaign max) you can even put long lasting 1 minute and -8 on the roll and good luck EVER breaking out of that. It probably ought to cost more, to be honest.

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31 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Its definitely one for GMs to use with caution, since you can just lay it on someone and keep it there as long as you have END to spend, and not so expensive it is problematic.  For 60 active points (usual campaign max) you can even put long lasting 1 minute and -8 on the roll and good luck EVER breaking out of that. It probably ought to cost more, to be honest.

 

Don't forget they get a +1 to break out each phase they are in the CE.

 

Within a turn or two they are practically immune to it.  Granted, the fight is probably long over by then.

 

Personally I would cap it.  Since I'm mostly working with converted D&D players this would be capped at current proficiency modifier (+2 LV 1-4, +3 LV 5-8, +4 LV 9-12, +5 LV 13-16, +6 LV 17-20).

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It shouldn't be a thing.  It's a blatant "make this roll (at huge penalty) or lose a turn / the fight" ability.  It's absolutely no fun at all for anyone involved. 

 

I'm kind of on the fence about it.  I mean entangle can easily do the same thing, and so can something like tunneling or teleportation.  Just throwing or knockbacking someone without a lot of movement can take them out of the fight for a turn or more.  And its a useful tool for certain build concepts, so I can understand it being in the game.  I just think 30 points is low. 50 would be better, putting it more in line with like "Takes No Stun" and other speciality abilities.

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In my view, it was added because there are  constructs out there that stun, but do not KO or kill.  It was added to APG because, more than many constructs, it could be quite unbalancing.  Valuing any absolute is challenging.   Compare to "make a DEX roll or fall prone", for example.

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13 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I'm kind of on the fence about it.  I mean entangle can easily do the same thing, and so can something like tunneling or teleportation.  Just throwing or knockbacking someone without a lot of movement can take them out of the fight for a turn or more.  And its a useful tool for certain build concepts, so I can understand it being in the game.  I just think 30 points is low. 50 would be better, putting it more in line with like "Takes No Stun" and other speciality abilities.

My problem with CE is that it's simply too disengaged from the rest of the system.  It ignores DCV, ignores Defense, ignores KB resistance, ignores STUN, ignores BODY, ignores Damage Reduction, basically the whole spectrum.  It's dangerously close to an absolute offensive effect. 

It says "have this one thing or lose".  More to the point, it says "have a concept that permits this one thing, or see you next fight". 

 

Entangle interfaces with DCV, STR, attack strength, Indirect, the abort system, etc.  Basically any concept can have a decent answer.  Heck, any character who's combat-appropriate should have such an answer.  And even if they don't, one of their allies can help them out.  Any Advantage construct that removes one defensive option amplifies the cost so that just breaking out becomes significantly easier.  Once you reach +1 in Advantages on an Entangle, an equal AP attack power can break free pretty often with a Casual use.  (Mental Entangle is its own can of worms, and I hate it as much as I do CE.) 

Similar for grabs, similar for Double-KB attacks, etc etc. 

But a CE?  They just have to move close to you and turn it on, then your entire team rolls the dice at -yikes. 

 

2 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

In my view, it was added because there are  constructs out there that stun, but do not KO or kill.  It was added to APG because, more than many constructs, it could be quite unbalancing.  Valuing any absolute is challenging.   Compare to "make a DEX roll or fall prone", for example.

"[STUN damage source of your choice], Only for Stunning (-whatever)" seems like it'd be the better solution. 

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My problem with CE is that it's simply too disengaged from the rest of the system.  It ignores DCV, ignores Defense, ignores KB resistance, ignores STUN, ignores BODY, ignores Damage Reduction, basically the whole spectrum.  It's dangerously close to an absolute offensive effect. 

 

I agree. It seems to me that Change Environment has morphed from a basic "make things happen in an area with possible minor combat effects" power into "fill in the gaps" power like a quasi transform.  I'd like to see the power dialed back to just area environmental effects like "Make it rain" or "light" and perhaps some rules for other things it presently covers instead.

 

 

 

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