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Advice for a rookie GM with rookie players


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If you really want a Champions answer to CCGs, make pregen cards with their stat blocks and non-Multipower slot stuff on one side and a character portrait on the other like the ones that came with the Marvel Super Heroes box sets back in the day, then lots and lots of powers cards with a purty picher of it in use and the rules for it in a text box, to put in your MP slots as they fit. Take a Hero In Two Pages in smaller type so it's one landscape side with counter tracks for END/BODY/STUN and other product ads or something on the back to fold up and slip into each starter deck box, and make the box long enough to fit three RGB glass blob counters, a map pawn with some kind of spinner or clix thing to differentiate between players who get one in the same color, and three dice inside on one side of the deck of cards. Include a poster-size play mat/map and a second deck in "deluxe" starter sets. Rarer heroes have more EXP and/or bigger MP Reserves... I dunno about rare Powers. Game design is hard!

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1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I enjoyed Magic for the first generation of it, but when they changed the cards and kept changing the rules I lost interest, and sold my suitcase full of cards to pay bills.

I resented Magic, and the following CCG's as they sucked all the money out of Tabletop RPG's for a generation, as people chased the quick geek profits.

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On 7/3/2019 at 8:58 AM, Duke Bushido said:

 

Right.  I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that there were some 4e paper dolls out there along that style.  I preferred them for durability (though it was hard to tape them on the inside if you didn't want tape wrapped around your character :(  ).  Unfortunately, customs on that style were completely out of reach, as I can't-- and I can't stress this enough --- _CAN'T_ draw.   At all.  In spite of decades of wanting to, and practicing every day since grade school.  (I'm fifty-nine now, if that gives you an idea of the uselessness of practice when there is no hint of innate ability.  I'm not entirely sure why I still practice, except that it's just a habit now....)

 

 

I'm afraid not.  The SJG ones (the ones  I use when I have to make my own) are a simple A-frame or "fold-over.  Essentially, the front side is your character portrait.  Copy the portrait, flip it feet-up, then affix it head-to-head just above the portrait, black it out (to indicate the character's back, and maybe put a name, initials, or a symbol to somehow ID it, if the silhouette isn't unique), fold it over between the heads, make a "tent" style stand-up.  Properly, you'll have bits at the bottom to fold under and tape together to make a "base."  affix your weight (if desired) atop this base. 

 

Tell you what:

 

This is not one of the old 4e sets (not the 4e-era ones that I distinctly remember as three-sided; they didn't survive long enough to make it into the affordably-priced home scanner and printer age, I'm afraid.  I don't remember who put out those three-sided jobbies; it might have been Marvel, now that you mention it), but similar to the Steve Jackson style ones.  Took a while to find one that said it was okay to use (the bottom of the text says "use as you will"   at least so long as you don't claim it's your work. ;)  I'm just going to link the page, not the piece itself (because it's not mine, either ).

 

https://www.deviantart.com/crimsonguard477/art/Suikoden-II-Paper-Minis-Page-1-385675179

 

 

As you can see, these can be folded up tent -style, or folded flat an inserted into one of those plastic clip-type bases we remember from our first game of Chutes and Ladders or Candy Land.   :lol:

 

Or some fashionably black ones for us slightly-older folks:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Litko-Game-Accessories-Miniature-Circle/dp/B00RKJV5BW/ref=sr_1_12?gclid=Cj0KCQjwpPHoBRC3ARIsALfx-_IwDjUBoM3JAr38E2kIJkLGDsYHlCmZb21k_EQP_aaDCOXQhhwrLVMaAo69EALw_wcB&hvadid=174259819422&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1015545&hvnetw=g&hvpos=2o1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=3036463514201656653&hvtargid=kwd-11701253684&hydadcr=4094_9338726&keywords=paper+miniatures&qid=1562168523&s=gateway&sr=8-12

 

 

 

Though while I was searching for usable examples, I stumbled across these:

 

61tX4IHteuL._SL1200_.jpg

 

Metal bases, thick plastic plates one inch high.

 

I may get a set or two of those for commonly-used (player character) paper dolls to promote longevity, and maybe make a nice "souvenir" after the game for new players (FEH!   The youth group and my own kids are the first "new players" I've had in over a decade!  :lol:  )

 

 

 

Both of those things are-- 

 

well, they're just awesome; that's what they are!

 

And be aware, as the current arc for my youth group involves an invisible assassin, _that_ idea is getting _stolen_, Dude.  :lol:

 

 

 

Duke

 

 

 When we playe, we never had metal miniatures, but were early adopters of the Cardboard Heroes from SJG, and Hero.  But since our group had a pet artist, and access to good copiers, we made our own, But there was also a product/toy called "Shrinky Dinks, were whone would draw on a piece of plastic, and then put it in the oven and it would shrink to a particular fraction of it's original size, into a very durable and waterproof plastic superhero counter.  All of the main PCs had one made for them, including a couple of the villains, but we used all of the agents, cops, innocent bystanders, and some fantasy creatures for our games back then.

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5 hours ago, Spence said:

 I cannot see playing a game that requires me to constantly have to buy blind pull cards to stay relevant.  And yes I know that there is a huge secondary market that allows you to buy what you want.  But that just makes it worse for me.  In order to play a game you have to essentially cheat?

 

It's called "pay to win."  Video game addicts-- particularly phone games-- are so used to this that they don't even notice it anymore.  Note I say the _addicts_.  The ones that I have to dodge with heavy equipment because they can't even look up long enough to cross a damned highway.  Casual video gamers -- again, especially the phone ones-- just seem to gripe and complain about how they can't get ahead, and how they refuse to pay money to win, and can't win because of it...  but don't actually stop playing, either, so.....

 

5 hours ago, Spence said:

 

And the term Cardboard Crack is not too far from the truth the way people buy boosters and such. 

 

:rofl:  :rofl::rofl:

 

That's a new one on me; I rather like it.   

 

But here's the thing:  I'm not going to knock someone for their choice in entertainment.  Seriously: I'm not going to do it.  Besides, as I said, I'm playing a collectable text book name now.  We can't deny it: we keep saying "but the core rules are only these two books" and then turn around and say "No; that's not how you do it.  Consult textbook three or four to see the "proper" way to do it.  Gah-- I think I have a digression _reflex_ anymore....    No; that's not it.  I'm off this week (plant closes for a  week around the fourth, and another week around Christmas) and I have no idea what to do with myself.....

 

As I was saying:  the game ("Magic: The Marketing" is my personal favorite derision ;)   ) itself doesn't bug me.  But as noted above, the "junkies" bug the Hell out of me.   I remember the days when RPG groups were sucking up tables at local shops (I was blessed with access to an indoor Rec Center on the military reservation I lived near back then-- awesome place to have games and recruit players and air conditioning that made it possible to hang meat in there!), and I remember a time or two when two-- sometimes three-- small groups would awkwardly-- but willingly-- share a big table, splitting the rate and trying to keep the volume down enough to not disturb each other.

 

I don't think the Magic "Crackheads" have a clue what "share" means.  In my recreational driving range (90 miles is my "recreational range," as I live in farm country), there are only three game stores (and all of them kind of suck, but they have tables).  And it's nothing to go to the closest one (forty-some miles from here) and see all twelve tables held up for Magic games, most of them with only two or three players at each table.  Offer to split the rate with them so a group of five can use the other end of the big twelve-seater?  Good God, you'd think you just offered to open a wound and sexually violate their kidneys!  Making it worse, I've seen _two_ (and _only_ two!) groups of Magic players clean up behind themselves.  The rest will willingly pay the "slob charge" when they leave.  I've watched more than one group, in a hurry to get their fix, tell the staff they'd clean it themselves, then walk over to the table and just brush it all onto an empty chair, and even the stinkin' floor.  Seriously, looking back, it really makes that "crackheads" remark seem much more appropriate....

 

Now again, that's _not_ saying "all magic players," but I have to say that it seems to apply to any of them I've seen under twenty-five or so--and again, I haven't seen all of those people, either.  I only live in one place, after all.

 

To reiterate: I don't have anything against the game itself (though it's decidedly not for me), but the players I've encountered tend to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

 

Honestly, they bug me more than the wargaming / model builder hobbyists.  (Nothing personal, Scott).  Now I don't dislike these guys: most of them are _ridiculously_ cool people with incredible_ talent, and love for you to admire their work and generally will answer up to one-point-five million questions about it without losing their exuberance. 

 

The thing is: I need a table for two hours-- my big group, maybe four hours if there's going to be more than two combats.  The war-game / model builder guys-- they need the table for four to five hours just to get set-up for their game.  Then they need four more hours (sometimes six) to play their game.  Then they need another two hours to tear it all down and take it to their car.  It would likely take more hours to do by themselves, but I've never seen a war-game group that wouldn't happily assist in tear-down and clean-up; the model builder himself though, doesn't seem to want any help putting it together for whatever reason.

 

These guys are all great (if ridiculously loud when the action gets hot, but I think we probably all do that whether we are aware of it or not), but the nature of their play style (I really like war gamers who don't have a model-builder in their group!  :lol:  ) means that whatever table they rent (and sometimes two, because sometimes the models are just that big!) is locked-up for that entire day; possibly two or three if there's a tournament.  And if there are say...  three groups there....

 

It used to bug me, but hey:  If I had the talent and the time, my Champions set-ups would likely be very similar, so.....   ;)

 

 

Unlike the Magic kids, though, those guys are actually _using_ the space, so it's easier to take your "no table today" lumps.    Crap.  Damned Digression Reflex again...

 

5 hours ago, Spence said:

 

But in the end it is a necessary evil for the FLGS.  They have to keep the lights on, and to be frank RPG sales do not provide enough income for a majority of the small shops.  Do you and your RPG friends constantly buy $60 of RPG books a week?

 

I agree completely.  I want to go just one bit more off-topic and address your last comment, because while it is secondary, it is also an _equal_ factor in my hated of piracy!  If you (that's the general "you;" not the personally-acusatory one.  We good?) continue to _steal_ the damned books and the PDFs, the places that you might go to actually _use_ them are drying up from lack of income.  There was a time when I had SIXTEEN-- yes, SIXTEEN-- game stores within a hundred miles of where I sit as I type this.   Now there are three.  Do I lay it all squarely on the feet of PDF piracy and illegally-sourced scans?  YES!

 

No; of course I don't.  But I can't help but wonder what would happen if every person who ever _posted_ a copy for piracy went out and bought five copies of everything he posted.  Just five.  Sure, I'd bet that if every person who downloaded a pirate copy bought one instead, I'd _still_ have sixteen game stores within an easy half-day round trip from me. 

 

Sure: the hobby collapse in the late 90s / early Oughts hurt a lot, but the piracy plays a bigger role than any pirate is ever going to take the time to think about.

 

Problem is we are all complicit in the demise of the game store.   You can't walk in and have the sales guy hand you a PDF.  They sell books.  Yes; I _love_ the books.  I'm one of those old farts who _prefers_ the books!   But I've been working on cataloguing my collection lately, and I've got way more PDFs than I do books.  Why?  I can afford them a hell of a lot better, for one.  I still try to go back and _get_ the books, but it seems nothing gets re-printed anymore (and why would it?  You can buy the PDF, after all-- even if, like me, you just _want_ the book!), meaning that usually I'm stuck with the PDF.  In fact, since I switched jobs last year, I've found myself with a bit of extra "mad money" have been trying to rebuild a collection I had to toss out for personal reasons (no; I'm not going to talk about it).  I had everything from 4e and back (save the Dark Champions stuff: I had the Dark Champions: Heroes of Vengeance book and knew there was no way in Hell I had any interest in the rest of that product line:  I play _HERO_, not MURDERING LUNATIC.  That, and-- well, it doesn't matter.  Didn't like; still don't, moving on).

 

It is _easier_ to find thirty-year old books than it is to find eight year old books.  Seriously.  Not just easier, but _way_ easier!   I attribute this to the fact that there were no PDFs: publishers had to print more than four hundred books.  What do modern game companies do?  They print enough for pre-orders (I assume) and maybe a hundred or so for an upcoming con, and then 400 more, and that's it?  Hell, it's really hard to know there's a chance to preorder unless you're online every damned day.  To fill in the "gap" of demand, they make PDFs.  A digital file-- not a book I have to scan and then clean out the watermarks my scanner installed or anything like that before I can post it to a pirate hub of some sort, but a file that I can quickly tear out the DRM (well, _I_ can't, but I can hit at least two people who can by walking out the street and throwing a rock) and toss it onto my favorite pirate hub.  In this way, the game companies are-- unwillingly, I admit-- complicit in making piracy that much easier: it's way less labor-intensive than it used to be!

 

 

Crud; I _am_ sorry.   I keep wandering, but _damn_ do I detest the theft of intellectual property, and doubly-so for the damage it causes my favorite hobby.  :(

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Spence said:

I buy a lot of RPG books (more for collecting than playing :weep:

 

 

 

I know the feeling.  :weep:

 

 

 

Duke

 

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6 hours ago, Spence said:

I won't be venturing to my FLGS this weekend because it is having Magic pre-release and the place will be packed with Magic players.  I think they are even doing an Ironman tourney so it will run 24hrs.  Great for the store, brutal for RPG'ers. 

 

Room packed with unwashed gamers for 24 hours? Brutal on the nose too.

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I resented Magic, and the following CCG's as they sucked all the money out of Tabletop RPG's for a generation, as people chased the quick geek profits.

 

Yeah I can't argue with that.  Its still dominating the gaming market, and its hard to get players to focus on one character and extended play, in an RPG.

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8 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

If you really want a Champions answer to CCGs

 

 

Good Lord, that's a _glorious_ idea, at least in terms of revenue for the company. 

 

And honestly, if there is one Fandom with enough math guys to figure out some core principles, I'd have to say it was this one. 

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1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Good Lord, that's a _glorious_ idea, at least in terms of revenue for the company. 

 

And honestly, if there is one Fandom with enough math guys to figure out some core principles, I'd have to say it was this one. 

 

To some extent the Champions Character Creation Deck is this.  Six pregenerated stat blocks, a dozen or so pregenerated Complications sets, and a buttload of pregenerated power and skill sets.  They're non-collectible and thus non-rarity-leveled, but you can very easily deal out a few cards to create a superhero, then snap a pic of it with your phone to have an electronic copy.  

 

Getting called to burn stuff.  More later.

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20 hours ago, dialNforNinja said:

Sadly, no. Kung Fu Chef, who emailed to say he probably wouldn't make it, did indeed not make it. Goo Girl also did not show up. Speedster and Bug Guy were there before me (the game tables supposedly get set up at 7 though the shop officially closes at 8, and Game Night runs up to 11, I arrived at a minute or two before 7) but were already playing Magic, and "just wanted to finish this game" -- No problem, I set up my stuff on the open table, and the Pathfinder guys even helped since they were setting up at the other non-Magic table at the time. But no, "just finish this game" turned into a few games, and then someone showed up about 8:30 with a big box of booster packs and everyone sat around opening them and taking turns picking cards, and I'd had enough of that so I packed up again and left.

 

And I thought it was annoying just listening to my nephews going on and on about their damn cards... Gah, just thinking about it is pissing me off again.

Well, be persistent. Reschedule. Show up a little earlier. Maybe talk to some of those cool helpful Pathfinder guys and see if they might be interested in trying a supers game. Tell 'em there's no commitment, the first game is free ;)

 

I seriously hope it all works out for you. GMing can be very rewarding. And some times your players are asshats. You don't always get to choose.

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8 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I enjoyed Magic for the first generation of it, but when they changed the cards and kept changing the rules I lost interest, and sold my suitcase full of cards to pay bills.

 

Yep.

 

For me, I tried it when it first released and we liked the game and enjoyed playing.  Bought too many cards, at first the only way to get them were packs and there was not such thing as the secondary market.   I went on deployment and when I returned pretty much all my cards were pretty much unplayable. After that I refused to throw good money after bad. 

 

A couple other encounters I will no longer buy anything that involves any kind of blind anything.  If I cannot see exactly what I am buying, they do not get my money.

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6 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

it is also an _equal_ factor in my hated of piracy!

 

Totally agree with the whole rant :rockon:

 

I try to make all my gaming purchases through my FLGS.  I occasionally have to order things that are not carried in distribution.  (And by distribution I mean general widely available distribution.  Hero has pretty much dropped out of existence since it is available only through IPR which doesn't carry any of the main lines.  That means 99% of the small shops will not open an account where they may only be able to buy one or two books a year(?).  Shops exist on a razor margin and hitting that free shipping point is a big deal, so I am forced to buy Hero direct.  Luckily they still have a fair amount of 5th edition product. )

 

I do kickstarter a fair amount of products, but I usually just go PDF and get my hardcopy through the FLGS when it hits. 

 

But I am really not a fan of what is definitely PIRACY.  I do not give any credence to all the babbled excuses. 

 

RPG gaming is a social game and the FLGS is a core part of building that community.  I wish the RPG producing community made a greater effort to push FLGS.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah I can't argue with that.  Its still dominating the gaming market, and its hard to get players to focus on one character and extended play, in an RPG.

 

Well D&D 5th seems to have pulled in a fair chunk.  They tend to fill the shops, especially on league night.  They put out regular adventures that are designed to be played either as a well developed role playing game or as a murder-hobo delight. The vast majority of RPG players today do not have much spare time, they want a fast quick to start game that they can play with little effort.  D&D uses cookie cutter PC's with a little superficial "customization" to give the illusion of playing unique PC's.

 

The amusing thing is while Heroes old guard fiercely hover over its toolkit nature, that very ability would allow Hero to easily put out adventures and a "cookie cutter" PC build (like the cards) for fast play.   The free time starved players could actually PLAY Champs (or other genre games) and the GM's among them could discover the full toolkit rulebook and make the leap.  But I guess I am just :dh:

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The Champions Character Creator Cards were the general inspiration for what I suggested, only made even simpler for mass-market appeal - you want to be able to play by buying a starter deck and reading the cards you draw with occasional reference to the HI2P mat, and let the "collectible textbook game" (I love that phrase! But I'm a nerd and a bibliophile, so...) be the mermaid you can see out on a rock from that mass-market beach, making bedroom eyes and promising any character you want, any power you want, it's all right here big boy if you move up from $10 decks and $1 booster packs to $20-$40 rulebooks :winkgrin:

 

Like, literally make a CCG that is a gateway drug to the full on game. Superheroes are big again thanks to the Marvel (and I guess DC... well, Wonder Woman was good...) movies, why are superhero RPGs still a niche within a niche within the niche of gaming as a whole?

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that very ability would allow Hero to easily put out adventures and a "cookie cutter" PC build (like the cards) for fast play.   The free time starved players could actually PLAY Champs (or other genre games) and the GM's among them could discover the full toolkit rulebook and make the leap.

 

Its up to the players to write and publish that stuff, or it won't get done.  People need to step up and get it on paper and make it happen.

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2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Its up to the players to write and publish that stuff, or it won't get done.  People need to step up and get it on paper and make it happen.

 

 

I would totally love to do that, but my stuff is useless to anyone playing new stuff, and with the strains on my free time currently, and at my age, I am _not_ committing the entirety of the new rules to memory for a project that, considering the market share, has little chance of seeing an audience of greater than 99 people.

 

Now anyone interested in some old stuff, them I can help. ;)

 

 

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Sadly, I just ran by Madness Games & Comics - one of the biggest stores in DFW - and the HERO section has vanished.

 

Which saddens me because there are other niche games like Vampire the Masquerade and GURPS which still have their sections.

 

D&D 5th ed dwarfs everything else.

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19 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

Sadly, I just ran by Madness Games & Comics - one of the biggest stores in DFW - and the HERO section has vanished.

 

Which saddens me because there are other niche games like Vampire the Masquerade and GURPS which still have their sections.

 

D&D 5th ed dwarfs everything else.

In San Angelo (the real one) options are even more limited. It's basically Pathfinder or D&D5 here. When I brought in other systems I had to market aggressively. "Oh, you're not doing anything? Why not come over to this room and grab a pre-gen and we can pink mohawk this shadowrun..." But it worked.

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The FLGS around here seem to be only interested in playing D&D Adventure League.   Of one desires any thing else,  then your best bet is to hold the game at a location other than FLGS.  Several times I attempted to get them to play something other than D&D only to be told that players would not be interested at that location (I have attempted this at multiple locations here).

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My former local in Los Angeles, was well run but stocked mostly CCGs of the popular variety (Yugi-Oh, and Magic), Nice German made board games, and some puzzles, their RPG section reminded me of a line from The Blues Brothers. Paraphrased, it was, “ We have both kinds of RPGs, Pathfinder AND D&D!” Nothing else was available the Shop was on Wilshire, a half block  from Wilton Pl. The staff was helpful and friendly, the table rates were $2.00 a person at the tables, and they had around  10 tables. There clientele was mostly middle schoolers, with a few high schoolers, but adults were rare. Talking with them about numbers, they felt fairly secure in their space, and had been there for a number of years. Not every table was Magic, so there was available space. The sad thing, was that no one there had ever heard of Hero. They also had no used game section. The place was super clean. 

 

On a a long drive last Tuesday, I mentioned we discussed gaming, and I mentioned this thread, specifically about the clientele in other shops, where it split out as either pre- family youngsters, and post family grey beards returning to the Hobby. He remark, that he and his friends had never stopped gaming, but also never bought anything after4th edition Hero, because they had all the books all ready.  He, and his group would be demographically invisible and useless to retailers. About the only place they appear in public is at the two large gaming conventions in the San Francisco Bay Area. So there really isn’t much of a chance to interface with the younger generation, really ...

 

Unless a VTT solution can be implemented nicely. 

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On 7/4/2019 at 1:51 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

I enjoyed Magic for the first generation of it, but when they changed the cards and kept changing the rules I lost interest, and sold my suitcase full of cards to pay bills.

 

Same here.  With the exception of still having my cards.

 

I've thought about selling them but with the crazy dying down, I doubt I'd get much for them so I just hang on too them for nostalgia's sake.

 

Who knows, maybe I'll start playing again.  Although I think most of the cards I use(d) are now banned . . . /shrug

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12 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Its up to the players to write and publish that stuff, or it won't get done.  People need to step up and get it on paper and make it happen.

 

10 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I would totally love to do that, but my stuff is useless to anyone playing new stuff, and with the strains on my free time currently, and at my age, I am _not_ committing the entirety of the new rules to memory for a project that, considering the market share, has little chance of seeing an audience of greater than 99 people.

 

What's the legality of something like that, anyway? Would you need to get some kind of license agreement to make and sell a Hero-based card game? I'd expect so, and certainly if it had Champions or Hero branding - Champions might be tied up with Cryptic depending on how that was written, even. And like I said before, game design is hard, more so when you're going to be writing something down and releasing it into the wild for people to try to use without a GM as such to make adjustments and smooth rough edges on the fly.

 

Looking at card game POD suppliers led into spending all day poking at stuff on thegamecrafter.com and finding a nice NASA image of the Crab Nebula to turn into a hexmap background, and while I only have vague and simplistic "if you can count you can play" mechanics and a long pile of links (that would probably add up to about a $35-$40 set by a quick eyeball estimate) to show for it, it is a really nice image, and big enough to fit onto the Medium Six-fold Board without getting all pixelated so it's a decent size map with 1" hexes, as confirmed by cutting up an old pizza box to fold the same way at the same size. And rockets versus crabs against the Crab Nebula as a backdrop amuses me perhaps more than it really should. Best of all, googling my title reveals that somehow no one has used "Conquer the Crabs!" in anything but a blog post about cooking.

 

Which, you know, got pretty far afield from vaguely wondering what it would cost to get some cards printed for myself with Hero stuff on them, but I saw something out of the corner of my eye and it was really shiny so I had to look closer :P

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