Delayed use

[Khas]

8 hours ago, theinfn8 said:

 

Right. That's why the Time Limit. The one use lasts 5 minutes. It technically doesn't "end" before the 5 minutes is up.

Ah ok so the time limit would extend the "one shot" feature of the delayed use. Thanks that is a really good suggestion

[Khas]

8 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

This is one of those rare times when I don't like Time Limit as an advantage because you are actually paying more points for the ability to use something less. I'd probably do the custom limitation here or even just a side effect? It ends up being an over all -1/2 to the original AP, which seems fair to me. You could even argue the side effect should be -3/4 (RP of 22) since the "predefined damage" is actually just a standard result of the d6 rolls.

 

8d6 Blast, 40 AP, [Extreme Side Effect: 13d6 Drain of Blast (40 points of drain) occurs 5 minutes after first use since last side effect, Recover 5 AP per 7.5 minutes (+1.5), Power does not recover until all points are returned (+0), 325 AP, Predefined Damage, Set Effect] (-1/2) 27 RP

 

- E

The drain side effect is a very good idea, i like it and did't think such a solution! 

[Khas]

4 hours ago, theinfn8 said:

Well, there is a weird RAW side effect of using Time Limit that I would ignore, using the power each time is technically a Zero Phase action, though using it would still count as an attack and thus end your turn. But this would technically make it an advantage, since you would have your full phase available for non-attack actions, then toss an attack out at the end. OP seemed to want something straight from the books, or I would have customized it and split the difference on the two as you suggested. (-1/2) maybe (-3/4). Suppose it depends what kind of game your running and whether an hour to wait is really much of a limitation. If I'm a dungeon crawling wizard, then an hour could be a lifetime. If I'm a space smuggler who only really needs to get out of bad situations every now and then, an hour might not be such a bad thing.

Yes as i can see from the different construction of a custom limitation would set around - 1/2 or - 3/4 and that is very useful for focusing its value since different approaches lead to a similar result

[Khas]

17 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

You don't need an END Reserve. You need a power that works for 5 minutes then shuts down for an hour.

 

Khas' Gun:  (Total: 80 Active Cost, 25 Real Cost) Blast 8d6, Time Limit (5 Minutes; +1) (80 Active Points); 16 clips of 1 Continuing Charge lasting 5 Minutes (Increased Reloading Time: 1 Hour; -1 1/4), OAF (-1) (Real Cost: 25)

 

Works for five minutes then shuts down for an hour.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I don' t need a palindromedary, I just need a tagline that references one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Excuse me if i'm boring, i relly like your solution but i had discarded it myself beacause continuing charges can be applied only to constant or persistent powers, are you just ignoring this or i'm missing something? Thanks for the suggestions

[Lucius]

3 minutes ago, Khas said:

Excuse me if i'm boring, i relly like your solution but i had discarded it myself beacause continuing charges can be applied only to constant or persistent powers, are you just ignoring this or i'm missing something? Thanks for the suggestions

 

Yes, you're missing something.

 

17 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

You don't need an END Reserve. You need a power that works for 5 minutes then shuts down for an hour.

 

Khas' Gun:  (Total: 80 Active Cost, 25 Real Cost) Blast 8d6, Time Limit (5 Minutes; +1) (80 Active Points); 16 clips of 1 Continuing Charge lasting 5 Minutes (Increased Reloading Time: 1 Hour; -1 1/4), OAF (-1) (Real Cost: 25)

 

Works for five minutes then shuts down for an hour.

 

 

you're missing the implications of the Time Limit Advantage. The ONLY reason it's there is to permit the Continuing Charges to work.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a palindromedary with no time limit

[Khas]

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

 

Yes, you're missing something.

 

 

you're missing the implications of the Time Limit Advantage. The ONLY reason it's there is to permit the Continuing Charges to work.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a palindromedary with no time limit

Ok i think that's because you consider an instant power with time limit on par with a constant power so that it qualifies for continuing charges right? 

[Doc Democracy]

I have similar issues with the use of Time Limit.  As with everything in HERO though, there is nothing absolutely forbidden (did you see what I did there?!).  When you are looking at something unusual you cast around to find similar kinds of things and come up with a rough approximation of how much things are worth.

 

when doing things like this a good sense check is to compare the cost of your power with the base power.  Think how you will use the power in game.  If your modified power is much cheaper than the base and not significantly affected in play, you have gotten things wrong.

 

With Lucius’ build, the base is an 8D6 blast, which uses 4 END and costs 40 points.

 

Lucius’ build provides an 8D6 blast which can be fired as often within a five minute time frame as desired but then cannot be used for an hour.  It costs 25 points and I am unsure whether it costs END (charges normally do not).

 

Is the limitation worth almost 50% discount?  That is a decision for your GM.  I would be inclined to say that it is too cheap if it is gaining 0 END.  If it costs END then I reckon the costing is fine.

 

Dont be Leary of using the custom limitation facility, it is often necessary to get just the right nuance, just be careful in costing it.

 

Doc

 

[Khas]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

I have similar issues with the use of Time Limit.  As with everything in HERO though, there is nothing absolutely forbidden (did you see what I did there?!).  When you are looking at something unusual you cast around to find similar kinds of things and come up with a rough approximation of how much things are worth.

 

when doing things like this a good sense check is to compare the cost of your power with the base power.  Think how you will use the power in game.  If your modified power is much cheaper than the base and not significantly affected in play, you have gotten things wrong.

 

With Lucius’ build, the base is an 8D6 blast, which uses 4 END and costs 40 points.

 

Lucius’ build provides an 8D6 blast which can be fired as often within a five minute time frame as desired but then cannot be used for an hour.  It costs 25 points and I am unsure whether it costs END (charges normally do not).

 

Is the limitation worth almost 50% discount?  That is a decision for your GM.  I would be inclined to say that it is too cheap if it is gaining 0 END.  If it costs END then I reckon the costing is fine.

 

Dont be Leary of using the custom limitation facility, it is often necessary to get just the right nuance, just be careful in costing it.

 

Doc

 

I'm glad you agree about time limit and i have no particular issues with custom limitation but if i can i try to use existing elements, anyway this tread helped me a lot with different approaches and idea. Thanks all

[Lucius]

7 hours ago, Khas said:

Ok i think that's because you consider an instant power with time limit on par with a constant power so that it qualifies for continuing charges right? 

 

I believe the Rules as Written consider an instant power with Time Limit to qualify for Continuing Charges.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary reminds me I could be mistaken

[Khas]

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

 

I believe the Rules as Written consider an instant power with Time Limit to qualify for Continuing Charges.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary reminds me I could be mistaken

I see your point, the two conditions are similar. Thanks for help and ideas! 

[ghost-angel]

Time Limit allows an Instant Power to be available for a the specified Time Period, ready to be activated as a Zero-Phase Action (Attack Actions still apply to use them offensively) during the entire period. It's generally used when the Power can't already be activated as a Zero-Phase Action, which means it really isn't applicable to a vanilla Blast Power (or almost any base Power, as just about every Power in the book defaults to only needing a Zero Phase Action to Activate).

 

This does mean Continuing Charges with Clips & Reload time can be added to Powers with Time Limit.

 

But I don't see them interacting the way Lucius describes based on what each Modifier actually does. There's nothing that prevents Blast from being activated without prep at any point, aside from the 1 Hour Cool Down, which isn't perpetration so much as a waiting period.

 

Now; if you had Extra Time: 1 Hour plus Time Limit: 5 Minutes - THAT does what Lucius is trying to accomplish: there's a 1 Hour period the Power is not available and then a 5 Minute Period you can use it without the Extra Time aspect being required.

 

Of course, Extra Time runs into the same problem as the 1 Hour To Reload aspect - it assumes nothing else is being done except that Action. Which also isn't what is being asked for.

 

Breaking down why each of these builds isn't achieving the goal as desired based on what the Modifiers are actually doing:

Extra Time: can do nothing else during the initial activation period - not a waiting period

 

Time Limit: can activate a Power as a Zero-Phase Action for powers that already can't be activated as a Zero-Phase Action, during the Period specified - this almost does what you want, but doesn't include the cool down period; still it might be a viable option (assuming you want to take an Advantage for something that can already be done inherently)

 

Charges, Continuing + Reload;

--The Power lasts the duration, assumes it's basically a continuous power (which Time Limit is a pseudo-continuous Power in that it's available for specified length, but not always active); Continuous assumes the Power is actually Active for the entire period (addendum: using Fuel aspect means it turns on/off at will, and the Continuous Charge lasts the total time In Use, but not consecutively);

-- Reload runs into the same problem Extra Time does, assuming that's the only action being taken.

-- Also, the number of Charges limits how often the power can be used Period. 16 Charges means you only get 80 Minutes of Continuous Use per Day/Session. Which is actually less than you can fit into a 24 Day assuming basically 22 hours of waiting and 110 Minutes of use... (plus 10 minutes left over to maintain the weapon and complete a 24 hour cycle...)

-- Charges means the Power isn't using Endurance, not sure that's a feature or a bug in the desired end result. [I hate that Charges mess with Endurance]

 

None of these really interact as described/desired in my opinion.

 

What the system really needs is a full fledged out Cooldown Limitation with a "how long a power can be ready for use" and "how long between ready states" aspects; 

Default being Ready For Use/Used for 1 Phase; Must Wait 1 Phase To Use Again (usable every other Phase for, I dunno, -1/4); and start stepping up and down the time charts. +1/4 for Use Time going up the chart (can be Activated any time for 1 Turn +1/4, 1 Minute +1/2, etc); and Must Wait 1 Turn -1/4, 1 Minute -1/2).

 

If a Power can be Activated and must wait 5 Minutes between uses that would math out to a -1 Power. (start at -1/4 Base, -3/4 for stepping down Cooldown from 1 Phase to 5 Minutes)

So, a Power can be used for 5 Minutes, and has a 1 Hour Cooldown: Base: -1/4; 5 Minutes Of Ready State (+3/4, total of +1/2 Advantage so far); Cooldown of 1 Hour (-1; total of -1/2 Limitation);

 

Eh, that's gonna be a weird Limitation, I'd have to sit down and play with it some to really determine what's a good way to build it out;

 

This post got long, so I'm going to end my thoughts here; only last point to make is that 5 Minutes of Use is effectively unlimited use for a single fight with no limitations; and this only becomes a limiting power for prolonged encounters and/or multiple encounters in a short period.

 

[eepjr24]

14 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

Yes, you're missing something.

 

you're missing the implications of the Time Limit Advantage. The ONLY reason it's there is to permit the Continuing Charges to work.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a palindromedary with no time limit

The only very minor quibble I have with Lucius' method (other than my earlier mentioned dislike of Time Limit in this situation, but that is just a personal preference thing) is that technically If you tried to fire it for 5 minutes after every hour you would run out of charges before the day was done, assuming a standard 24 hour day. If started at midnight:

 

12:00 Fire 15 charges remain

12:05 Rest 

01:05 Fire 14 charges remain

01:10 Rest 

02:10 Fire 13 charges remain

02:15 Rest 

03:15 Fire 12 charges remain

03:25 Rest 

04:25 Fire 11 charges remain

04:30 Rest 

05:30 Fire 10 charges remain

05:35 Rest 

06:35 Fire 9 charges remain

06:40 Rest 

07:40 Fire 8 charges remain

07:45 Rest 

08:45 Fire 7 charges remain

08:50 Rest 

09:50 Fire 6 charges remain

09:55 Rest 

10:55 Fire 5 charges remain

11:00 Rest 

12:00 Fire 4 charges remain

12:05 Rest 

13:05 Fire 3 charges remain

13:10 Rest 

14:10 Fire 2 charges remain

14:15 Rest 

15:15 Fire 1 charges remain

15:20 Rest 

16:20 Fire 0 charges remain

 

So you end up about 7 charges short. If you tweaked it to 32 charges it would work, cost 27 RP. The one I defined runs that without an OAF limitation.

Edited July 4, 2019 by eepjr24
Fixed ending.

[Lucius]

9 hours ago, ghost-angel said:

 

Now; if you had Extra Time: 1 Hour plus Time Limit: 5 Minutes - THAT does what Lucius is trying to accomplish: there's a 1 Hour period the Power is not available and then a 5 Minute Period you can use it without the Extra Time aspect being required.

 

Of course, Extra Time runs into the same problem as the 1 Hour To Reload aspect - it assumes nothing else is being done except that Action.

 

Actually, according to the Character Creation book p. 374, the character may take other actions during that time. So I think you hit on the actual solution here.

 

Khas' Gun:  (Total: 80 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) Blast 8d6, Time Limit (5 Minutes; +1) (80 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, -3), OAF (-1) (Real Cost: 16)

 

Use for five minutes, pause an hour, use for five minutes, pause an hour, etc.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary pauses for a tagline op.

 

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

The problem with anything involving Time Limit is that it artificially bloats the Active Point value of the power without providing an advantage over the base power (since it's there to make the disadvantage work as desired). 

I really would just set it as "Usable for up to five consecutive minutes, then needs hour to recharge (-1)" and be done with it. 

[Khas]

2 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

Actually, according to the Character Creation book p. 374, the character may take other actions during that time. So I think you hit on the actual solution here.

 

Khas' Gun:  (Total: 80 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) Blast 8d6, Time Limit (5 Minutes; +1) (80 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, -3), OAF (-1) (Real Cost: 16)

 

Use for five minutes, pause an hour, use for five minutes, pause an hour, etc.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary pauses for a tagline op.

 

 

Extra time is quite perfect if you ignore that if used for an attack you can't attack until it is ready for use: "Attacks are an exception: if a character takes this Limitation for a power that requires an Attack Roll, he cannot make another attack until the power’s been used (unless the GM gives permission otherwise)." 

 

I too think that a limitation that takes in account the cooldown time and a time limit together should be required and very useful in this kind of situations as ghost-angel said

[Lucius]

5 hours ago, Khas said:

Extra time is quite perfect if you ignore that if used for an attack you can't attack until it is ready for use: "Attacks are an exception: if a character takes this Limitation for a power that requires an Attack Roll, he cannot make another attack until the power’s been used (unless the GM gives permission otherwise)." 

 

I too think that a limitation that takes in account the cooldown time and a time limit together should be required and very useful in this kind of situations as ghost-angel said

 

I should have kept reading- instead I found a line I liked and quit reading at that point. Okay, Extra Time doesn't work as written either.

 

Looks like it does come down to a custom Limitation.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says all these tools in the kit and still somehow you need to craft a new one to get the job done.

[Khas]

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

 

The palindromedary says all these tools in the kit and still somehow you need to craft a new one to get the job done.

😂😂 You are right i'm a bit finicky and i apologize for that, but all the ideas you have provided helped me in choosing a good limitation value and also to better understand the guidelines underlying the rules. I think that a custom - 1/2 or a tweak of existing limitation would do the job without the iper complicated build i thought. 

[ScottishFox]

10 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

The problem with anything involving Time Limit is that it artificially bloats the Active Point value of the power without providing an advantage over the base power (since it's there to make the disadvantage work as desired). 

I really would just set it as "Usable for up to five consecutive minutes, then needs hour to recharge (-1)" and be done with it. 

 

That's the solution I recommended earlier.  Your concurrence identifies you as a soul of great wit and sagacity.

[ghost-angel]

11 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

The problem with anything involving Time Limit is that it artificially bloats the Active Point value of the power without providing an advantage over the base power (since it's there to make the disadvantage work as desired). 

 

This is absolutely correct; it's intended to essentially circumvent Limitations that prevent instant activation.

[clnicholsusa]

Personally, I'd go with the END Reserve/Slow Recovery option. It's true that this doesn't enforce "five minutes active, one hour cool down" with rigid precision. However, setting the power and END Reserve up to approximate that idea and using RP to model what remains would work for me. In fact, I'm going to incorporate the idea in "Frogboy" as soon as possible:

Frogboy has a five SPD, so will have twenty-five phases in a five minute period, however, I'll just RP him as being able to use his Mechano-Froglegs for five minutes at a time, with an hour between uses to cool down the pneumatic chamber and refill the air tank.

Cost 6 points
Mechano-Froglegs:  Leaping +21m (25m forward, 12 1/2m upward) (11 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), no Noncombat movement (-1/4)
costs 1 END
Cost 11 points
Endurance Reserve  (25 END, 25 REC) Reserve:  (25 Active Points); REC:  (18 Active Points); Slow Recovery 1 Hour (-4)

[Khas]

2 hours ago, clnicholsusa said:

Personally, I'd go with the END Reserve/Slow Recovery option. It's true that this doesn't enforce "five minutes active, one hour cool down" with rigid precision. However, setting the power and END Reserve up to approximate that idea and using RP to model what remains would work for me. In fact, I'm going to incorporate the idea in "Frogboy" as soon as possible:

Frogboy has a five SPD, so will have twenty-five phases in a five minute period, however, I'll just RP him as being able to use his Mechano-Froglegs for five minutes at a time, with an hour between uses to cool down the pneumatic chamber and refill the air tank.

Cost 6 points
Mechano-Froglegs:  Leaping +21m (25m forward, 12 1/2m upward) (11 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), no Noncombat movement (-1/4)
costs 1 END
Cost 11 points
Endurance Reserve  (25 END, 25 REC) Reserve:  (25 Active Points); REC:  (18 Active Points); Slow Recovery 1 Hour (-4)

Yes it is a nice build but different from a free use/cooldown and doesn't take in account the possibility of multiple attack actions . Anyway it could be perfect for a different power or needing 

[Doc Democracy]

My problem with this is that you pay points to make your power worse...

[Khas]

26 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

My problem with this is that you pay points to make your power worse...

That's why makes sense to put on it a few limitations to balance the cost like i did with jointly linked and double endurace cost, so that the discount balances the increased cost