Perceptions of the game change

[Trechriron10]

5 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

This is terminally idiotic. ...

 

Ouch dude. Maybe not your idea of fun or reasonable, but common...

[Spence]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Is this not more or less how everyone uses Skills?   I was under the impression that they weren't meant to be "roll x to win."

 

Surprisingly no, I have seen GMs that required a roll to start the car or to reload.  Ridiculas, but not unheard of.

 

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Don't take offense to Hugh's questions.  I can't explain it, but it's just his way.  I mean, he _is_ contributing, he just has a hard time doing it in a non-destructive way.  Once you get used to it, and understand that it's not meant as offensive, it doesn't bother you anymore.

 

Meh, I have met his clones.  They spend so much time worrying irrelevant fringe trivia and deliberately missing intent in order to demonstrate that they are trivia kings.  The easiest thing for me is to ignore

 

Since I figured out that function my blood pressure has been much better.

[Duke Bushido]

17 minutes ago, Spence said:

Meh, I have met his clones.  They spend so much time worrying irrelevant fringe trivia and deliberately missing intent in order to demonstrate that they are trivia kings.  The easiest thing for me is to ignore

 

That's the thing, though, Spence.  He's really not one of those guys.  He's one of the people here I call the AMGs (awesome math guys).  He's just really, _really_ detail-oriented to the point that you get the feeling the big picture doesn't matter.  I think it's a math-thinking thing:  if all the numbers and functions aren't perfect, the answer is wrong.  That's kind of how he approaches things: bottom-up.   As far as the lack of people skills, well once you figure out it's not personal, he's actually one of the most helpful people on the board, and usually one of the first to volunteer an answer to a question.

 

To be fair to you, though: yes; there are a couple of jerks no matter _where_ you go.  It's just that Hugh isn't really a jerk: he just comes off that way.  I'd like to say he grows on you, but I can certainly say "it stops bugging you after a while."  

 

17 minutes ago, Spence said:

 

Since I figured out that function my blood pressure has been much better.

 

   teach me, Sensei!  My meds are killing my mad money!  

 

 

[steriaca]

29 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

   teach me, Sensei!  My meds are killing my mad money!  

 

 

You have mad money?   I'm shocked.

 

All my money is mad at me, and I have to spend it on rent and food less they get too upset.

[Hugh Neilson]

12 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

This is terminally idiotic. 

Your player will not know how to properly conduct an autopsy.  Their character with PS: Crime Scene Investigator and Forensic Medicine will know how to properly conduct an autopsy.  By forcing the player to describe a process they know little about but their character is an expert in and then evaluating success based on player narration, you invalidate the character's skills.

 

Then we agree.  But do we also agree that a skilled crime scene investigator is unlikely to forget to check the windows, even though the player might?  Emphasis added.  This is true of investigation skills, interaction skills, knowledge skills and combat skills. 

 

12 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

The flip side to the above is that if the big secret is that there's a trap door under the carpet and the player describes their character rolling up the carpet to check under it, then their narration of their character's action should ensure success. 

 

No issue there.  But I would also expect a character skilled at searching, with an appropriate roll, could notice some oddity about the carpet.  OR don't allow characters to have skills at searching, if it will be player savvy which will solely determine success or failure.

 

10 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

He's just really, _really_ detail-oriented to the point that you get the feeling the big picture doesn't matter.

 

Funny...on another thread, I am pushing for the "big picture" of the game and setting parameters, and you seem to be pushing back pretty hard against that.  "Big picture" may not always mean the same thing to everyone...

 

Though "player skill overrides character skill" is an area that presses my buttons.  If the shy player wants to play a suave superspy, and invests points in those abilities, they should be effective - just as effective as the points would have been in combat had the player chosen to build a combat monster instead.  If he invested 50 points in investigative skills, and one or two other players each spent 3 points on one investigative skill. his character should look like Sherlock Holmes in play.  That should not be undermined by the Combat Monsters asking if he looked under the bed or checked the windowsills.

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Then we agree.  But do we also agree that a skilled crime scene investigator is unlikely to forget to check the windows, even though the player might?  Emphasis added.  This is true of investigation skills, interaction skills, knowledge skills and combat skills. 

 

 

No issue there.  But I would also expect a character skilled at searching, with an appropriate roll, could notice some oddity about the carpet.  OR don't allow characters to have skills at searching, if it will be player savvy which will solely determine success or failure.

 

 

Funny...on another thread, I am pushing for the "big picture" of the game and setting parameters

 

Crap.  Sorry, Hugh; I snipped the wrong part.  This was meant for the big picture comment you made:

 

For what it's worth, I see it the same way there, too:  I see the big picture as the story; that is the important part.  It's fiction: the parameters and details are malleable.  Write the story, then adjust it for questions and issues. 

 

So yeah; you're right: it doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Though "player skill overrides character skill" is an area that presses my buttons. 

 

Ditto. 

 

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If the shy player wants to play a suave superspy, and invests points in those abilities, they should be effective - just as effective as the points would have been in combat had the player chosen to build a combat monster instead. 

 

Agreed.  I have no problem with the junior high kid saying "I want to do forensics in here.  I want to forensics the whole house.". How much time do you want to spend?  "enough to do a really good job." 

 

Pass some time and throw some dice- maybe per room, if he says "enough time to do a good job." 

 

But this brings up another button-pusher:  GMing such that clues depend on dice rolls.  Now certainly, I will let such skills discover _additional_ "bonus" clues, or even become dead giveaways, but in the words of Chris Goodwin, "clues want to be found.". I hate seeing a story set up so that a flubbed die roll kills the story. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Whether Hero system is truly a permissive or restrictive system, my concept of it is restrictive. I don’t think that I’m alone in this. I know I’ve been trying to be more permissive. If Hero system could be viewed as such, it would help however with Champions Now coming out,  I wonder if that won’t hurt 6th as it will be seen as too complex.

[Chris Goodwin]

On 7/22/2019 at 10:34 AM, Duke Bushido said:

But this brings up another button-pusher:  GMing such that clues depend on dice rolls.  Now certainly, I will let such skills discover _additional_ "bonus" clues, or even become dead giveaways, but in the words of Chris Goodwin, "clues want to be found.". I hate seeing a story set up so that a flubbed die roll kills the story. 

 

I actually took that from the GUMSHOE system, which I think someone else mentioned on this thread.  Yes, having the game halt because no one made the right roll to find the clue or open the locked door or whatever, sucks.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah the "automatic success if trivial enough" is part of Hero already with casual strength.

[Spence]

On 7/25/2019 at 10:36 AM, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I actually took that from the GUMSHOE system, which I think someone else mentioned on this thread.  Yes, having the game halt because no one made the right roll to find the clue or open the locked door or whatever, sucks.  

 

The GUMSHOE system is a fantastic system for any kind of investigative game.  No their action, "doing things" and combat systems are weak.  Especially in the earlier games like Fear Itself, Trail of Cthulhu and such.  With the appearance of Nights Black Agents and The Fall of Delta Green, action and combat has been much improved, but it still lacks that undefinable "something" of a great action game.  But to be fair, in the style of games you are usually playing with GUMSHOE, if the scene moves to action, they are usually screwed...

 

Later versions of GUMSHOE games have added more things that Investigation Points can be spent on.  More that just "clues".  I have build a plug-in for Champions that combines concepts from Fear Itself to Swords of the Serpentine.  In the next game I run for Champs I plan on giving it a test run. 

[Spence]

On 7/26/2019 at 4:41 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah the "automatic success if trivial enough" is part of Hero already with casual strength.

 

True enough, but I don't think we are all thinking of the same thing when we view/read the rules

[Spence]

So the company rebooting BESM (uses the tri-stat system) is planning to have the Tri-Stat Emporium section on DriveThruRPG — a community content program that allows you to create and sell your own BESM and Tri-Stat content (similar to the Storytellers Vault and Dungeon Masters Guild).

 

Hmmmm...... imagine harnessing the creative energy of the fandom without all the red tape

[assault]

3 hours ago, Spence said:

Hmmmm...... imagine harnessing the creative energy of the fandom without all the red tape

 

Imagine all the fandom actually getting up off their fat bottoms and creating stuff...

Back in the day, I was president of a club that had a magazine. We didn't worry about rights or anything about any of the games we wrote articles for - but our editor always had to scratch about for articles to fill the pages.

Even if you just have to get people to scratch together a page of nonsense, they won't do it unless you nag them. Of course, if you have three page character sheets, writing Champions articles is easy. But people still have to be pushed.

[Spence]

22 hours ago, assault said:

 

Imagine all the fandom actually getting up off their fat bottoms and creating stuff...

Back in the day, I was president of a club that had a magazine. We didn't worry about rights or anything about any of the games we wrote articles for - -snip--

 

I guess I missed the post from Hero games ownership granting the same permission to make product that Chaosium, WotC and White Wolf did.

 

And companies are far too likely to take legal action these days to expend effort without some sort of official OK.

 

Perhaps if Hero had an open content market

[assault]

I was referring to a University club magazine on the other side of the world, with a print run of about 40 copies...

 

Even without that, magazine articles have never been treated as a problem. There were Champions articles in The Dragon, Different Worlds, Space Gamer, White Dwarf and no doubt others.

 

Of course they didn't make use of Hero Games IP, with the obvious exception of those written by Hero Games staff.

 

About the only publisher that might have made an issue of it back in the day was Palladium, who were a bit weird about stuff at certain points.

[steriaca]

6 minutes ago, assault said:

About the only publisher that might have made an issue of it back in the day was Palladium, who were a bit weird about stuff at certain points.

It is probably because of the Robotech licence. Harmony Gold is rather strict with it. Just look at Skyfire/Jetfire of Transformers fame.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I guess I missed the post from Hero games ownership granting the same permission to make product that Chaosium, WotC and White Wolf did.

 

All you gotta do is write them and get an agreement, then submit your stuff for approval for official hero licensing.  Its that easy.  I've been putting stuff out for almost a decade.