Western Hero Redone

[Christopher R Taylor]

If, for example, there was to be a reboot of Western Hero for 6th edition, what sort of talents would be in such a book?  There are a lot of gun-fu type stuff you can put in, but the Western Hero setting even in its more wild forms doesn't get quite that crazy and tends to be more gritty and realistic.

[archer]

Super-speed bar slide - in a saloon fistfight, you can place your opponent on one end of the bar and slide him the length of the bar and through the plate glass window at the other end at an extraordinary speed.

 

I think one issue of Adventurer's Club has something similar as a martial arts maneuver but I think it's more of a talent (shouldn't require the purchase of other maneuvers).

[Duke Bushido]

I let that ride more as a feat of strength than anything else.  If you've got a stunned opponent, and you can hoist him onto the bar, we'll it just doesn't take any special skill to push him, particularly when you're usually holind him by the shirtback and belt. 

[archer]

19 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I let that ride more as a feat of strength than anything else.  If you've got a stunned opponent, and you can hoist him onto the bar, we'll it just doesn't take any special skill to push him, particularly when you're usually holind him by the shirtback and belt. 

 

Yeah, but it takes real talent to do that to an opponent who isn't stunned!

[Christopher R Taylor]

It would be worth having some specialized western-only maneuvers or at least western-themed like the bar slide

[theinfn8]

Some gunslinger type talents? Speed reloading, hawkeye vision, trick shot for a PRE boost, ability to track someone with rapidity (some kind of altered sense?).

Honestly though, not really sure. I've never run a western game before. Though I think I would use such a source book for a Firefly-esque sci-fi western.

[Spence]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

It would be worth having some specialized western-only maneuvers or at least western-themed like the bar slide

 

Themed would probably be the best. 

There aren't really any "special" maneuvers in a western, even fast draw isn't unique to the setting. 

[Doc Democracy]

Well, I think that the one big thing a western is getting the duel done properly and for it to be a bit separate to the usual combat scheme to make it special.  I also think that reputation is a huge thing, becoming a Named Character should be a thing, people might seek you out to test your skills and others might actively refuse to draw.

 

I would make the duel more deadly than normal combat, there should be a real concern that this will be an instant death moment.

 

will think about other aspects.

 

Doc

[Tjack]

    I had a western character once who used a martial art called “Chinese Boxing”  it was for PC’s who had traveled in the Far East or had lived in a city with a high number of “Oriential” immigrants like San Francisco and had been instructed in a limited number of Kung-Fu or Karate techniques.

    The example would be Jim West from the TV Wild Wild West. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like the concept of encouraging duels because its so much a part of the genre.  The best way to do so is to give players a reason to want to do them, but "almost certain death" probably isn't going to appeal to most players.

[ScottishFox]

6 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I would make the duel more deadly than normal combat, there should be a real concern that this will be an instant death moment.

 

I could see this as both combatants are intentionally DCV 0 until the Fast Draw / DEX Roll / Lightning Reflexes challenge is won.  Which means whoever shoots first gets their opponent at DCV 0.

 

This ups the chance of a called shot or critical hit dramatically.  That and the fact that most Western Heroes are working with 0-1 rPD should make gunfights plenty lethal.

[Doc Democracy]

I can see some kind of Dutch auction with duellists waiting another phase to gain the ability to alter the location roll with each phase forgone another DCV lost.  The person who draws first gets a bonus on the quick draw but a penalty on the to hit roll (their nerve broke) unless they wait until their DCV is zero when they simply get a bonus on the quick draw.

 

I think every round of a duel should raise the stakes and tension.  I think there should also be a bonus at the start by having a Dutch auction.  The person who drops the most DCV in the opening phase gets a bonus on the quick draw and a bonus on modifying the location roll.

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

41 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I like the concept of encouraging duels because its so much a part of the genre.  The best way to do so is to give players a reason to want to do them, but "almost certain death" probably isn't going to appeal to most players.

 

Yeah, I think there needs to be a tension there, I think they need huge considerations before entering into one and a real threat of instant death (not almost certain death) needs to be an element in that.

 

Someone suggested in another thread that players should be able to access instant regeneration by taking on some kind of complication that could be “healed”.  I would be in favour of that.  I also think that a duellist fighting for a noble cause should be able to either survive a duel or win a duel that they might otherwise have lost.  You should get HERO points for actions that can mitigate the worst consequences or change a minor success into a major one.

 

The game needs to enforce the genre and those that want to subvert the genre (against the wishes of the GM and other players) should need to work hard to do that (or quickly build up some kind of karma debt for the final showdown).

 

🙂

 

Doc

[archer]

If you're looking at real-life gunfight duels (as opposed to cinematic gunfights), I've heard that they often weren't lethal: either the people doing it weren't good shots to start with or that they were so nervous that both duelists emptied their guns without hitting the other person.

 

I seem to remember seeing documentary a number of years ago which showed a lot of newspaper clippings from the era.

[Doc Democracy]

30 minutes ago, archer said:

If you're looking at real-life gunfight duels (as opposed to cinematic gunfights), I've heard that they often weren't lethal: either the people doing it weren't good shots to start with or that they were so nervous that both duelists emptied their guns without hitting the other person.

 

I seem to remember seeing documentary a number of years ago which showed a lot of newspaper clippings from the era.

 

It is fortunate we are seeking to recreate the movies rather than the real Old West! 🙂

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think there's probably room for at least some notes in a Western Hero book about how to simulate gritty real life experience as well as cinematic.

In fact I see three types of Westerns:

• Romantic: like the movies, barfights, gun duels in the street, etc.  Can be really romantacized like the old serials where the good guy shoots the gun out of the bad guy's hand and wears a white hat or just more gritty like The Cowboys or Man who Shot Liberty Valance, but still cinematic.
• Gritty: like real life.  People who get shot tend to die from blood poisoning or disease.  Nobody is really all that good, and even the heroes rustled cattle and stole a horse once in a while.
• Wild: like Shanghai Noon, Wild Wild West (the TV show), Cowboys & Aliens, Jonah Hex, or the eponymous first sequence in The Ballad of Buster Scruggs.  Anything can happen, even magic and monsters.

A genre sourcebook ought to be able to handle any of those three, although it probably should focus on and be primarily meant for Romantic.

[Duke Bushido]

If anyone is shopping opinions:

 

"Draw!" is always Phase 12.  Fast draw, lightning reflexes, and skill levels come into play (obviously). 

 

Duels were handled OCV VS OCV.

 

 

Dex, as far as action order, did not come into play. Instead each character received a bonus / penalty to his hit location based on how much he made /failed a Dex roll by. 

 

That is, all shots were assumed to be called shots to target center of mass.  A bonused character could "walk" his hit location roll up or down the location chart a number of times equal to his bonus minus his opponent's bonus (or plus his opponent's penalty. 

 

It sounds more complex than it is, but the idea was that Duels did not involve dodges, dives, or other DC-based maneuvers: two (or more) facing off, relying on nothing more that being fast enough to kill the other guy. 

 

The dancing on the location chart (something we generally don't use, but it's extremely appropriate for a duel) repesented fake-out, twisting, hunching, and other shifts of stance _ in place _, feet on the ground, to minimize or avoid getting hit by the other guy: things that weren't "cowardly" after accepting a challenge.  It also represented being just that much better, of needing less time to place an accurate shot.

 

Not saying its the only way to fly, but it worked pretty good for us, and encouraged an "all-in" aggressiveness that seemed appropriate, and totally allowed (and often resulted in) both characters getting shot if the skills were good enough. 

 

The biggest problem we had was that there's not a great way to represent "he shit first" without hurting some feelings, _especially_ on the rare occasion that two player characters squared off (which is why we turned "fast draw" into an OCV bonus for the purpose of dueling-- and _only_ for the purpose of duelling).   

[Tjack]

On 8/2/2019 at 5:09 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think there's probably room for at least some notes in a Western Hero book about how to simulate gritty real life experience as well as cinematic.

In fact I see three types of Westerns:

• Romantic: like the movies, barfights, gun duels in the street, etc.  Can be really romantacized like the old serials where the good guy shoots the gun out of the bad guy's hand and wears a white hat or just more gritty like The Cowboys or Man who Shot Liberty Valance, but still cinematic.
• Gritty: like real life.  People who get shot tend to die from blood poisoning or disease.  Nobody is really all that good, and even the heroes rustled cattle and stole a horse once in a while.
• Wild: like Shanghai Noon, Wild Wild West (the TV show), Cowboys & Aliens, Jonah Hex, or the eponymous first sequence in The Ballad of Buster Scruggs.  Anything can happen, even magic and monsters.

A genre sourcebook ought to be able to handle any of those three, although it probably should focus on and be primarily meant for Romantic.

 

 

    Would your definition of Gritty include something like Deadwood or Unforgiven, or would that be a category unto itself? 

[mallet]

Apart from Duels which everyone has already mentioned, off the top of my head other talents or special abilities might include:

 

-A desert survival ability (beyond the survival skill). Like Life Support: High Heat (Desert Only) or something, as often in westerns the desert doesn't seem to effect main characters, but there is always lots of cattle skulls, etc... around showing how bad the desert should be. 

-Clinging (Horseback only) to represent standing on, hanging off the side, and all the other amazing feats on horseback that some westerns have. 

-Mind Control or Telepathy (Single horse only) to represent the bond and silent (or almost silent) commands a protag can give or have with their horse. 

-Accurate Leaping only for on or off of horseback (so getting on to or off of your horse from/to a moving train or wagon or other horse)

 

Apart from abilities/talents I'd also pull the advanced survival rules from Post-Apocalypse Hero for desert other western environments and use those. 

 

That's all I can think of right now. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Would your definition of Gritty include something like Deadwood or Unforgiven, or would that be a category unto itself? 

 

Yeah, or even Lonesome Dove.  Probably would be worth coming up with a kind of list of each category

[ScottishFox]

On 8/2/2019 at 4:57 PM, Duke Bushido said:

That is, all shots were assumed to be called shots to target center of mass.  A bonused character could "walk" his hit location roll up or down the location chart a number of times equal to his bonus minus his opponent's bonus (or plus his opponent's penalty. 

 

One thing we used to do - somewhat similar to this - for Danger International was only roll 1 die for Autofire hits after the initial hit location was rolled.

 

Ex:  Players autofires an opponent and scores 3 hits.  The first hit location he rolls: 1,5,5 and hits the target in the chest.  For the 2nd shot they roll a 3 as the 1 slides off the list for (5,5,3) a vitals hit.  For the third shot they roll a 1 (5,3,1) as the 5 slides off the list for a shoulder hit.

While still a little erratic it eliminated the bizarreness of head, toes, head, toes type of autofire chains.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I used to let people call an area, then roll to hit at -2, for each 2 they hit by they could "walk" the shot toward the location.  So if you targeted someone's chest (10-11) you then rolled to hit at a -2 OCV penalty.  Then, if you hit, you rolled your location normally.  Say, you rolled a 8 for the location: upper arm.  Then you check how much you hit by, if you hit by 2 more than the DCV needed, then you moved the location hit toward your intended target by 1, so now its a 9.  Shoulder; same as a chest hit in terms of hit location effects.

 

It worked pretty well but the problem is 12 is stomach and 13 is vitals so they were very close to average bell curve roll on 3d6, and the location damage bonuses were so attractive that the system kinda broke down there.

[Spence]

5 hours ago, ScottishFox said:

 

One thing we used to do - somewhat similar to this - for Danger International was only roll 1 die for Autofire hits after the initial hit location was rolled.

 

Ex:  Players autofires an opponent and scores 3 hits.  The first hit location he rolls: 1,5,5 and hits the target in the chest.  For the 2nd shot they roll a 3 as the 1 slides off the list for (5,5,3) a vitals hit.  For the third shot they roll a 1 (5,3,1) as the 5 slides off the list for a shoulder hit.

While still a little erratic it eliminated the bizarreness of head, toes, head, toes type of autofire chains.

 

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah I used to let people call an area, then roll to hit at -2, for each 2 they hit by they could "walk" the shot toward the location.  So if you targeted someone's chest (10-11) you then rolled to hit at a -2 OCV penalty.  Then, if you hit, you rolled your location normally.  Say, you rolled a 8 for the location: upper arm.  Then you check how much you hit by, if you hit by 2 more than the DCV needed, then you moved the location hit toward your intended target by 1, so now its a 9.  Shoulder; same as a chest hit in terms of hit location effects.

 

It worked pretty well but the problem is 12 is stomach and 13 is vitals so they were very close to average bell curve roll on 3d6, and the location damage bonuses were so attractive that the system kinda broke down there.

 

There is a Western RPG called Aces and Eights.  They have separate target silhouettes showing targets from the front, side, back, prone, bent over, behind cover and so on.  When a shot is taken you lay a clear location sheet over the silhouette that centers on the primary location hit and then drifts out by the overlay.  The drift can actually indicate you hit the cover or even missed.  

 

Now, I don't think that this is the way to go for WH, but it did give me an idea. 

 

Use the standard hit location to determine an area. 

 

Build up separate hit location charts for each sub-location.

Chest,  Abdomen, or Left Leg.  The sub-table for a shot that hits the "Chest" can include arms and other adjacent areas that could logically be hit.  Since it is "Western Gunfights" you could have table for side shots and back shots.  Behind cover where some "hits" are listed as hitting the cover in which case you'd need to see if the bullet generates enough damage to punch through. 

 

This concept could actually be that special something that sets WH apart from other Hero games/settings.

[Doc Democracy]

I think you have something here.  I quite like the idea of changing the way the damage system works.  In westerns shots are often deadly, debilitating or flesh wounds.  If we took BODY out of the game then we would decide whether we were looking to wound or kill.  

 

In in my head I am turning Spence’s System in its head.  We first seek to hit and depending on the intent the roll will determine the kind of damage done.

 

(Am busking, so details are likely to be wonky). I would say a player would indicate he was shooting to wound or shooting to kill.  Shooting to kill halves OCV. 

 

Shooting to kill.  Succeed by 4 - kill.  Succeed by 2 - flesh wound. Otherwise miss.

shooting to wound.  Succeed by 4 - debilitate.  Succeed - wound. Miss by 1 - flesh wound.

 

What does this mean?  

 

If you shoot to kill and succeed by 4, the opponent is at 0 BODY, 0 STUN and bleeding.  If it becomes relevant (someone saves them, you roll on the kill hit location table (head, chest, guts) to see what kind of debilitation the character will suffer until he is healed.

 

If you shoot to wound and succeed by 4, the opponent takes a debilitating wound (5 BODY) (arms or legs depending on statement of intent) and takes STUN damage.  Succeeding by less delivers a wound (5 BODY) and STUN damage.  Missing by 1 delivers STUN damage.

 

I would be inclined to get rid of BODY and rate characters by Wounds.  Peons would have 1 wound, Cowboys would have 2 and I Protagonisti would have 4.  If you lose all your wounds then you are on the ground whether conscious or not.  If conscious you can crawl or shout but not shoot.

 

is this the basis of a Cowboy Damage System?  You can see how it would make duels dangerous.  If you stand there at DCV 0, shooting to kill becomes a real risk.  I think the stare down therefore has to improve DCV for someone, or DCV slowly improves round by round until someone goes for his gun....

 

Doc

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

If you use all the optional dials in Hero to max, it goes from a cinematic "Just a flesh wound" thing to deadly as hell.  Impairing, Disabling, Bleeding, Hit Locations, all this stuff adds up to making people die from serious wounds in a very quick hurry.  In fact it gets very realistic (almost nobody dies instantly, they bleed out while unconscious, something almost no game system simulates like Hero).  A head shot from a .44 Smith and Wesson with no armor, and its almost always lethal.  Even if you somehow survive, you're gonna be out cold and bleeding out in a hurry.