Western Hero Redone

[Spence]

18 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

I think you have something here.  I quite like the idea of changing the way the damage system works.

 

Great post.

 

But I have to disagree with changing the damage system.

I think the stun/body system does a great job simulating things whether it is cinematic or realistic. As CRT points out, add in all the exiting damage options or even a few and things get deadly fast. 

 

What current Hero lacks is a hit location system that is dialed in or detailed enough for duels.  

 

The friends and I were initially drawn to Champs back in the day because even though it was cinematic, it was the only system where a person could take physical damage (Body) like a stab wound and yet take little (or in our case no) stun such as can happen in real life combat.  We did the stun multiplier of 1D6-1 but without the minimum of 1.  So we went x0 to x5 which aligned with the training we had in our combat first aid and the importance that troops check each other for wounds that they may not realize they have.  I understand that some people prefer no surprises and use pre-calculated predictable results.  But I prefer the fun that comes with unpredictability. 

 

My take is to have the hit chart location set a base damage and the randomizer die to give a multiplier.  Hero already handles the various conditions as an integral part of the system, stunned, knockdown, etc. 

 

 

 

 

[ScottishFox]

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

If you use all the optional dials in Hero to max, it goes from a cinematic "Just a flesh wound" thing to deadly as hell.  Impairing, Disabling, Bleeding, Hit Locations, all this stuff adds up to making people die from serious wounds in a very quick hurry.  In fact it gets very realistic (almost nobody dies instantly, they bleed out while unconscious, something almost no game system simulates like Hero).  A head shot from a .44 Smith and Wesson with no armor, and its almost always lethal.  Even if you somehow survive, you're gonna be out cold and bleeding out in a hurry.

 

I find that Fantasy HERO armor works as a pretty good simulator though it can be a touch stun heavy for head shots.

 

Still after watching a season of Knight Fight and seeing guys in full plate get KO'd by a single two-handed weapon strike to the back I felt better about it.

 

One thing I will probably house-rule for my Fantasy HERO games soon is a damage boost for two-handed weapons.  Currently they do not gain enough damage to match the DCV loss from not having a shield.

 

Ex:  Large Axe:  1-handed STR 15 / 2d6K.  If wielded by a 20 STR character you're at 2d6+1K.

       Great Axe:  2-handed STR 18 / 2d6+1K.  Same guy swinging it gains no damage and no reach and loses 3 DCV by way of lacking a large shield.

 

At a minimum I'll implement a flat +1 DC for two-handing weapons possibly mixed with a 3pt STR MIN reduction.  That would take the latter example above up to 3d6K which feels like a more reasonable trade for losing 3 DCV.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

We did the stun multiplier of 1D6-1 but without the minimum of 1.  So we went x0 to x5 which aligned with the training we had in our combat first aid and the importance that troops check each other for wounds that they may not realize they have.

 

Yeah, I think there needs to be some element added to the rules where adrenaline and intense focus can make you ignore or minimize stun and pain from attacks.  I have personally experienced this and I've never been in combat nor am I some trained soldier, its not something you have to learn.  I don't know how you'd do that though.

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah, I think there needs to be some element added to the rules where adrenaline and intense focus can make you ignore or minimize stun and pain from attacks.  I have personally experienced this and I've never been in combat nor am I some trained soldier, its not something you have to learn.  I don't know how you'd do that though.

 

That is why we liked the multiplier die for calculating the stun.  It gives you the range if not noticing you are hit to the glass jaw of what appears to be a small hit knocking you for a loop. 

 

One of the reasons we liked Champs in the day. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I guess there is some element of the concept of not noticing a wound in the game: attacks from suprise do x2 stun (I have as a house rule that surprise attacks instead do the same stun, but you only get half CON against being stunned.  You're not any more likely to be knocked out by a surprise attack but you will feel the pain more shockingly).

[archer]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I guess there is some element of the concept of not noticing a wound in the game: attacks from suprise do x2 stun (I have as a house rule that surprise attacks instead do the same stun, but you only get half CON against being stunned.  You're not any more likely to be knocked out by a surprise attack but you will feel the pain more shockingly).

 

That's a very interesting change to the rules. I've thought that surprise attacks were a wee bit overpowered and this looks like it could fix the problem nicely.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well I noticed that when I ran into a cupboard door unexpectedly, I didn't wake up on the floor, it just hurt a lot.  Which felt a lot more to me like "this is unexpectedly painful" and not "this nearly drove me unconscious."

I think I know where the rule came from, all those "sneak up behind a guy and knock him out from surprise" bits in movies and books, but that strikes me as more of a special maneuver, not just surprise.

[ScottishFox]

21 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I guess there is some element of the concept of not noticing a wound in the game: attacks from suprise do x2 stun (I have as a house rule that surprise attacks instead do the same stun, but you only get half CON against being stunned.  You're not any more likely to be knocked out by a surprise attack but you will feel the pain more shockingly).

 

I'd say from a couple of decades in martial arts and having viewed a few thousand MMA matches since 1993 that the x2 stun rule is realistic.  Even in matches where the guys are actively fighting each other a strike that hits one of the competitors without being seen is frequently a stunner or fight-ending knockout.  Think European uppercut where the striker shifts outside your guard and punches up between your arms towards your chin (not the stupid WWE variant).  I've seen this with kicks that look like they're coming for the body and when the defender drops his arms to protect his liver/ribs the kick catches him in the head without his neck properly tensed for impact.  Instant sleepy time.

 

Completely outside of combat I have to imagine it's even worse.  A hard shot in the cranium with your neck and shoulders completely loose would be a game-ender.  A gone-stiff skull-to-floor-impact-coming-up zombie fall.

 

Mechanically, I like your solution.  It's less likely to result in an instant KO which, while realistic, is not a lot of fun.

 

I would also consider:

* x2 stun on whatever gets past PD

* target is 0 PD for purposes of reducing stun damage

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK this is what I came up with based on people's ideas of talents for the Wild West.  Not 100% on the names though

 

Desert Born: Life Support vs Heat Extremes (2 Active Points) 2 pts

Fast Track (tracking takes less time):  Naked Advantage  Reduced Time By One Step (+1/4) for up to 23 Active Points (6 Active Points) 6 pts

Horse Bond (super communication with horse):  Mind Link , One Specific Mind (5 Active Points); Limited Range 4m (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Animal Handler roll to establish, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; -1/4) 3 pts

Reloader (load weapons one step down time chart faster):  Naked Advantage: Reduced Time By One Step (+1/4) for up to 62 Active Points (15 Active Points) 15 pts

Saddle Grip (can do acrobatic tricks and are hard to throw):  Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points); Only while mounted (-1), Requires A Roll (Riding roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; -1/4) 5 pts

Trick Shot (do an impressive shot to gain presence for attack): +10 PRE (10 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Attack roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; Must be made each Phase/use; -3/4), OIF (Firearm; -1/2), Only for offense (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4) 3 pts

Vault (jump safely to targets):  Leaping 0m (4m forward, 2m upward) (Accurate) 5 pts

 

I see "Bar Slide" as being a combat maneuver for a Barroom Brawling Martial Art more than a talent.

 

[archer]

Don't Hit Me, I'm Comic Relief - when this character isn't doing something threatening, or is being less threatening than other people, he's treated as a lesser threat. It's the classic "you aren't worth the bullet it'd take to shoot you" type of situation and the character is instead subjected to humiliation or a lesser attack than another person would face in the same situation.

 

In a situation which might end up with a duel in the street with some other PC, instead the bad guy might shoot at his feet to make him dance or hit him in the face rather than subject him to a gunfight. If he'd normally get punched in the face, instead he's shoved down into a pile of horsecrap or into a water trough. Basically take him one step further down the theoretical "violent reaction chart" than would normally be the case.

 

In a fight when there's other people on the PC's side and those people are still fighting, the PC won't get targeted if he's stopped fighting and dropped his weapons (if any). The PC does need to make it clear to the bad guys that he's stopped fighting (throw out his weapon, shout "don't shoot", hold up his hands in surrender, or some such). He's just not seen to be as big of a threat as other people, even if he'd shortly before been part of the combat and the bad guys now have a clear shot at him. He can take any non-combat actions including running away. He cannot do such things as prep attacks, reload, flank the bad guys in some manner, drag other combatants to safety, or interpose his body in from of another combatant, and still preserve the combat use of this talent.

 

However he could bandage himself, help a non-combatant to safety, pour himself a drink after momentarily cowering behind the bar, go get the horses, etc.

 

If all the people on his side in the fight are stunned or killed, the combat side of this talent ceases to work and the "one level down in the violent reaction chart" kicks in again. (So if they'd normally execute him on the spot after the fight ends, he might get staked out next to a rattlesnake den and left to die. If the bad guy's normal response would have been to stake him, he might instead get dragged behind a horse for a short while. The next step down might be to get dropped off in the desert while blindfolded and with his hands tied behind his back. The next step down, maybe no blindfold and his hands aren't tied behind his back....)

 

Good luck writing that up but you see something similar with lovable rogues like Maverick and Harry Mudd.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I am not really sure how you'd write that in Hero.  One thing Hero does not do well is minor effects that manipulate NPCs, like a "lull" effect from EverQuest where you get some of the bad guys to ignore what happens to one of their members, or this kind of thing.  It can do the effect, but it costs like 90 active points for a pretty minor effect.

[dmjalund]

Limited invisibility?

[archer]

19 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I am not really sure how you'd write that in Hero.  One thing Hero does not do well is minor effects that manipulate NPCs, like a "lull" effect from EverQuest where you get some of the bad guys to ignore what happens to one of their members, or this kind of thing.  It can do the effect, but it costs like 90 active points for a pretty minor effect.

 

Yeah, that's why I think it'd work better as a Talent than built as a power. Nobody would dump that many points into buying a minor power (especially since most players wouldn't want to stop fighting during a fight, much less dump 90 points into being able to do it safely). But they might take it as a 5-8 point talent. Maybe a 5 point talent for either the combat or non-combat effect then another 3 points to get the rest of it (ala Defense Maneuver)?

 

You could try being as wordy as I was in order to pad out the length of the book.

 

But seriously, I was trying to get all the thought down in writing before I forgot portions of it rather than trying to be brief or get it into a publishable format. If you think the idea could have potential if we could get it under a thousand words (j/k), I'd be willing to work on it along with everyone else who wants to pitch in. The wording would obviously need to be more concise and maybe sidebar the examples. If you think it's over-powered or doesn't fit into the tone you're looking for, that's fine as well.

 

I was trying to think of alternate names for the talent:

 

I Get Away With A Lot (j/k)

Reduced Negative Reactions

Lesser Threat

[Doc Democracy]

I think it is simply a “Be nice to me” Mind Control with bonuses based on how scary the opponent is (+1d6 for every 5 PRE above 10 of the opponent).

[ScottishFox]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I am not really sure how you'd write that in Hero.  One thing Hero does not do well is minor effects that manipulate NPCs, like a "lull" effect from EverQuest where you get some of the bad guys to ignore what happens to one of their members, or this kind of thing.  It can do the effect, but it costs like 90 active points for a pretty minor effect.

 

There are several effects that are weak, but hard to do without pretty high active point costs. 

 

After working with the system for awhile it gives you the feeling that it was built with a sweet spot in the 50-75 point range.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The problem is that talents aren't just hand waves, they are pre-packaged, built effects with a simple name and description.  The cost is based on the hidden build.

[archer]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The problem is that talents aren't just hand waves, they are pre-packaged, built effects with a simple name and description.  The cost is based on the hidden build.

 

Fair enough.

[Christopher R Taylor]

So I was fooling around with potential wild west martial arts (distinct from, say Kwai Chang Caine) that might be included and came up with four different ones.  At first I was thinking "meh, just leave it out it doesn't fit" but then I realized that "martial arts" in Hero doesn't necessarily mean specialized dedicated training in a style so much as a set of special learning and maneuvers.  And then there's the native American wrestling and fighting techniques which were pretty advanced and impressive. 

 

Boxing is already in the book, so I won't post that, but its the first one.  It was pretty popular back in the day.

So I tried to build a sort of Jailhouse Rock informal combat based on those barroom brawl scenes: some people just seem really good at it

 

Then there's the Native American one.  I used the name of a now-formalized official Martial Art created recently based on these kind of moves

 

And finally there's a trick shooting one, because with all the guns and experts it kinda makes sense.

[archer]

On 8/12/2019 at 2:10 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

The problem is that talents aren't just hand waves, they are pre-packaged, built effects with a simple name and description.  The cost is based on the hidden build.

 

You brought the following idea up in another thread about how to build a taunt power:

 

Quote

I built it with a Change Environment; make an Ego roll or target and attack the taunter.

 

Could you build an affordable "don't choose to attack me if there's another target" talent by basing the costs off of Change Environment?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its possible, yeah. Its a bit of a kludge like the Taunt thing, but it would give the desired effect for couple phases at least.

[archer]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Its possible, yeah. Its a bit of a kludge like the Taunt thing, but it would give the desired effect for couple phases at least.

 

The effect might not need to last more than a couple of phases. There's a real tendency for people to keep shooting at the same target over and over until the target is down anyway. Just getting anyone to quit shooting at you and at someone else for a single phase would probably be distraction enough to keep that person from switching back unless there's a real reason.

[IndianaJoe3]

On 8/22/2019 at 2:36 AM, archer said:

 

You brought the following idea up in another thread about how to build a taunt power:

 

 

Could you build an affordable "don't choose to attack me if there's another target" talent by basing the costs off of Change Environment?

 

This is the flip side of a taunt, isn't it? I would use extra PRE, only to look harmless (because that's how I built a Taunt).

[mallet]

On 8/9/2019 at 4:51 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

OK this is what I came up with based on people's ideas of talents for the Wild West.  Not 100% on the names though

 

Desert Born: Life Support vs Heat Extremes (2 Active Points) 2 pts

Fast Track (tracking takes less time):  Naked Advantage  Reduced Time By One Step (+1/4) for up to 23 Active Points (6 Active Points) 6 pts

Horse Bond (super communication with horse):  Mind Link , One Specific Mind (5 Active Points); Limited Range 4m (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Animal Handler roll to establish, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; -1/4) 3 pts

Reloader (load weapons one step down time chart faster):  Naked Advantage: Reduced Time By One Step (+1/4) for up to 62 Active Points (15 Active Points) 15 pts

Saddle Grip (can do acrobatic tricks and are hard to throw):  Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points); Only while mounted (-1), Requires A Roll (Riding roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; -1/4) 5 pts

Trick Shot (do an impressive shot to gain presence for attack): +10 PRE (10 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Attack roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; Must be made each Phase/use; -3/4), OIF (Firearm; -1/2), Only for offense (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4) 3 pts

Vault (jump safely to targets):  Leaping 0m (4m forward, 2m upward) (Accurate) 5 pts

 

I see "Bar Slide" as being a combat maneuver for a Barroom Brawling Martial Art more than a talent.

 

 

Another ability for your list might be: 

 

Ride Like Hell: +Xm Running Usable by other (only the Horse the character is riding). Player can spur his/her horse to run faster then normal in and out of combat. Perfect for catching up to bad guys or reaching the bank in time to stop the robbery. 

 

A spin off of this would be to also increase the horse you are riding's Leap, allowing it to jump further and higher (over wider ravines, washed out bridges, etc...) 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like the riding talent idea, it fits the genre well.  The trick is to allow impressive feats without them being too violent to the plausibility and feel of the setting.

 

Another idea for Western Hero: The casual presence attack.  The character doesn't have to say a word or do anything beyond a steely glare and causes the opponent to back down.  You see it all the time in movies.

 

By the way, Western Hero has a section on Showdowns, those "duels in the street" that were very rare in the real world but happen all the time in movies and books (and hence, should in a game).  Its basically a set of modifiers to DEX or Fast Draw roll based on circumstances, weapon size, holster, and so on.

 

Some fun: an example of a presence attack from a Western: Unforgiven

 

William Munny crouches by the door of the tavern and is worried about ambush from the men he chased out of the room earlier.  He does a Presence Attack to try to cow them: 

 

“Any man I see out there, I'm gonna kill him. Any sumbitch takes a shot at me, I'm not only gonna kill him, but I'm gonna kill his wife. All his friends. Burn his damn house down!”

 

OK so he’s being played by Clint Eastwood so he has a pretty high presence, we’ll say 18, so that’s a base of 3½d6.  William Munny has a pretty terrifying reputation already, so he’s probably riding that with a Very Frequent, Extreme Negative reputation; that’s +5d6 right off the bat.  He has just engaged in Extremely Violent Action by shooting down multiple armed men including the very capable Sheriff, that’s +3d6.  It’s an Excellent Soliloquy, so that’s +2d6.  The men who ran off are in partial retreat, so that’s +2d6.  The setting is appropriate, with a torrential storm, that’s +1d6.  On the other hand, Munny is outnumbered and at a disadvantage; that’s -1d6.

 

Still, he gets a roll of 15½d6, utterly terrifies the men, and they let him ride off without firing a single shot.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I was trying to figure out how to simulate riding a bucking bronco and I came up with this system.  I'd like to test it some and see how well it works in real tests, though.

 

Quote

 

The horse uses its strength to try to throw the rider off its back.  Each phase, it can either try to use its DEX to spin the rider off or INT to trick the rider through a surprising move.  The rider attempts to use their strength to resist being thrown, plus their riding roll to control the horse and stay in the saddle.

 

 

The horse uses its full strength in a STR vs STR contest with the rider, which seems a bit unfair since they are so much stronger than the rider.  However, the rider has some advantages.  A saddle gives them +1 to their roll.  Stirrups give an additional +1.  Making their riding roll grants them +1 to their roll, and for each point they make the roll by, the rider gains +1 to their STR roll.  This is enough to give the rider an advantage over the horse, on average. 

 

 

Riders may choose to use DEX instead of STR to resist being thrown off, making it a contest between the horses’ STR and the rider’s DEX.  This may be useful because the rider may have a significantly higher DEX than STR, and use their skill and agility remain mounted rather than brute strength.

 

However, the horse will attempt to make a complimentary type roll to add to its STR roll as well.  If it attempts to do some stunt of agility, it makes a DEX roll, and for each 2 points the roll is made by, the horse gets +1 to their STR roll.  If the horse tries to come up with a trick to surprise the rider, it attempts an INT Roll.  Now, most horses are not very bright, so this roll may be low, but some are very clever at this and have a bonus to their INT on their character sheet.  Again, for every 2 points this roll is made by, they gain +1 to their STR roll.  If a horse is really agile or surprising, it can throw even a very skilled rider.

 

Each phase that the rider stays in the saddle, the horse gets to make an EGO roll to resist being broken.  If the horse has never been ridden, this roll is given a +3 due to fear and desperation.  If a horse has been broken but hasn’t been ridden for a while (say, recovering from a long ride or illness, or just in the remuda a while), it has a +1 to its roll.  If the horse has been ridden recently, its just a straight EGO roll.

 

Every phase the horse fails to throw the rider off, that ego roll is at a -1 penalty, cumulative.  So at phase 3, the next roll is -3 to the horse’s EGO roll.  Some horses start with a significant bonus to this roll because they are so stubborn or determined, in the form of Resistance.

 

 

Once this roll is failed, the horse gives up and submits to having a rider, for that day, at least.

 

 

This seems like it would make for an entertaining, interesting contest in which a really skilled rider can still be thrown by a particularly clever or agile horse. Ain't no horse that can't be rode, ain't no rider that can't be throwed, as they say.

 

Edit: probably should work Animal Handler somehow into there, and maybe something that gives the rider a bonus if they have a higher speed than the horse, like a held phase can negate some of the horse's INT or DEX attempts.

 

Another thought: maybe allow a DEX roll complimentary to STR roll for the rider, and the reverse if they use DEX to hang on instead of STR.

And while most horses will only do one or the other (INT or DEX) some particularly clever or mean ones might be able to do both.