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Swords in science fiction -- why?


tkdguy

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The animation was based on a discussion that basically said there's no point putting Vadar up against a normal space marine as they can't do much against the force powers, what would happen if he fought one of the space marine librarians (psychic/wizard, there isn't much difference in 40k).

 

Which made a cool animation, but also rendered the question a bit pointless - psychics in 40k range from 'it would hardly make a difference versus Vadar' to ridiculously over powered army killers who would squish him like a bug. So you basically get to just choose which side wins at that point. 

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On 8/9/2019 at 1:38 AM, tkdguy said:

I understand why there are lightsabers in Star Wars; the Jedi Order is (or was) a part of the setting. But there are other examples of swords in scifi. Klingons have the bat'leth. The Narn and Centauri have their own blades. Traveller, Warhammer 40000, and Halo all include swords in their arsenals.

 

But why? Swords aren't used in combat nowadays, and they aren't about to make a comeback in the battlefield anytime soon. Why would they make a comeback in the far future?

 

The Traveller rpg has some explanation: Swords are used instead of guns to prevent damaging internal systems when fighting on board a starship. They are a feature on sword & planet stories, so those get a pass. Otherwise, they don't seem to fit in the genre. Maybe there is some technology in the game/fiction that is preventing firearms or lasers from functioning.

 

Any ideas on this, besides the "swords are cool" trope?

 

Swords/blades can't breach the hull and cause explosive decompression.

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13 minutes ago, Greywind said:

 

Swords/blades can't breach the hull and cause explosive decompression.

That has been the popular defense (and dont get me wrong; I like the sword thing, too, but I also acceot that it is entirely,because I think the anachronism is very cool.  Then there are the "rule of cool is uncool" guys, and I accept that, too),  but having been forced to watch most of the movies, I am exceedingly certain that a light saber would puncture a hull, etc, wtc, decompression.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Greywind said:

 

Swords/blades can't breach the hull and cause explosive decompression.

shotguns with the right loads won't either, but with the right loads it can. Hence the versatile "Boarding carbines" of my SF backgrounds. (Bullpup Shotguns with laser sights, and switchable magazine tubes for different types of ammo.).

 

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Second RPG I ever played was a game of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay set in the 40k universe (the fantasy roleplay and 40k Rogue Trader stats were compatible enough you could basically just do that).

 

I didn't have a PC, and the group wanted to get to know me a bit before offering me a place. That was fair enough; I was 14 and the rest of the group were in their 30s-40s and it wasn't clear that we were going to be a good match. And it would have been awkward to bring in a new character anyway, as the party were in the process of trying to reclaim their ship from space pirates and they'd left off half way through the pitched boarding battle (having used their extensive knowledge of their own ship to get back on board).

 

So the GM gave me an NPC crew member to play - and not just any old mook, but the heavy weapons specialist. So we clear out a few rooms, plant sapping charges on the bridge door, blow it off its hinges, and we all burst in! The GM loving describes the senior pirates, including the pirate captain in his shiney chaos marine power armour. Who promptly shoots and nearly kills my character, who's rolled the highest initiative in the party.

 

"That sounds bad," says I, "and very tough. I'm going to switch to full auto on the plasma cannon and empty the clip."

 

The DM considers. Rolls some dice. Looks up some armour ratings.

 

"Well, there's good news and bad news. Good news is, there's nothing left of the pirate captain except a smoking pair of boots magnetically held to the floor.

 

The bad news is, you and the rest of the party are being sucked out of the gaping hole in the front of the bridge out you just opened into deep space.

 

Worst news is, your character just got several holes blown in his space suit and it's no longer air tight."

 

Long story short: they should have given me a power sword...

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On 8/8/2019 at 10:38 PM, tkdguy said:

 

 

But why? Swords aren't used in combat nowadays, and they aren't about to make a comeback in the battlefield anytime soon. Why would they make a comeback in the far future?

 

Any ideas on this, besides the "swords are cool" trope?

This guy
 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

That has been the popular defense (and dont get me wrong; I like the sword thing, too, but I also acceot that it is entirely,because I think the anachronism is very cool.  Then there are the "rule of cool is uncool" guys, and I accept that, too),  but having been forced to watch most of the movies, I am exceedingly certain that a light saber would puncture a hull, etc, wtc, decompression.

 

A lightsaber, by definition, is not a sword.

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We have amazing guns, bombs, tasers, and all manner of interesting weapons today but you know we still use knives, and they are feared for a reason.  Militaries around the world still train in sword use (although its trained using a long knife on the end of a rifle).  Swords are a valid weapon even putting aside the cool factor, in any sort of setting.  Are they especially useful against armor?  Not very often, but then not everyone has armor.

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10 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Militaries around the world still train in sword use (although its trained using a long knife on the end of a rifle).

 

A lot of them have resurrected blade combat without the rifle.  Many modern combat rifles have become small and light enough that they are no longer as effective in close quarters as a good old fashioned blade.   Those blades are also beginning to get bigger as well. 

 

Turns out that if things go south and you are suddenly in close quarters combat a good blade is actually useful. 

 

If you are trained with them of course

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14 hours ago, Sundog said:

To be fair, bayonet training is nothing like sword fighting. It's actually the modern equivalent of a spear.

 

 

Absolutely. 

And with the virtual disappearance of long rifles in favor of shorter automatic/semi-auto weapons the entire spear thing falls short :sneaky:

A short knife on the end of a short lightweight awkwardly shaped unbalanced stick really doesn't compare to a spear or actual rifle with bayonet.

But a solid well weighted longer combat knife in the hands of someone trained will eat them alive. 

 

 

 

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On 8/9/2019 at 1:38 AM, tkdguy said:

I

But why? Swords aren't used in combat nowadays, and they aren't about to make a comeback in the battlefield anytime soon. Why would they make a comeback in the far future?

 

Any ideas on this, besides the "swords are cool" trope?

 

First off swords are effectively used in combat today.  What we call a combat knife is a blade that can extend 20" long in the more sizeable category.  There was a good you tube video on close combat in WWI that explained why the bayonets were shortened and knives, clubs and truncheons were used.  It was because people stayed in trenches for protection and the longer blades and rifles and even to extent hand guns were liabilities in close combat.  

 

We tend to think of the term sword as the long sword of medieval knights but the Roman Army one of the most effective tactical combat units of the ancient ages uses the Gladius, a sword with a 24" blade at most that was not really that much bigger than some larger combat knives you can buy at an army/navy surplus store.

 

The reality is that the "sword" will always be a useful weapon because no matter how technologically superior we get close combat will always be a reality.  If you think about it. looking at the Iraq war technology has increased the percentage of close combat.  The jihadi's used IED devices and snipers but when it came to

clearing them out the battle ended up in an urban setting going from house to house.  Sure the marines developed tactical methods of grouping soldiers to clear the area but the fighting would definitely involve close combat because the enemy used surprise.

 

In the future the melee weapon could very well become a reality as new armor is developed.  In Dune the personal force shield was so effective that fighting was done hand to hand with the combatants having to practice the "slow knife" as only by moving slower than the velocity that affected the shield could you get through it.  Even with new armor such as Kevlar, riot shields etc.  The best way may be the huge weight of a club or axe or the puncturing point of a sword pushed through the Kevlar.  Certainly the materials of the weapon can be more resilient, sharper (see the monofilament blades of William Golding's cyberpunk novels) have technological advantages like chain saw blades, diamond tipped edges, vibro blades that vibrate back and forth causing cutting forces before adding pressure etc.

 

The greater the ability to dress a soldier in protective armor that lessons potential for damage or to allow the solider to maneuver without being attacked (such as potentially the metal boot assembly I saw developed that extended the legs with flexible rods that allowed greatly increased speed or smoke screens etc.) the more that close combat becomes a reality because the fact is even if you cannot pierce someone's armor you can always hurt them by crushing them with weighty objects such as a hammer.

 

Just my 2 cents.

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