Trigger and roll attack (6 edition)

[steph]

Hello everyone, I do not have my books with me right now and I would need a quick answer to a rule question. If a power built with trigger is a attack power, like for example: entangle with a specific condition connected to a trigger, if the condition is triggered by an enemy, I need to roll the attack of the entangle? Or my entangle automatically success.

 

I hope my question is clear and thank you very much for the time.

 

Steph

[Hugh Neilson]

All Trigger does is cause the power to activate, so a roll to hit is still needed.  6e v1 p 351 discusses this in detail.

 

Stepping back, if I could put a Trigger on an attack (a simple zero phase action that I control), that's a +1/4 advantage.  If the attack hit automatically, why would anyone buy AoE, Accurate for +1/2?  Even if I made the Trigger condition an action that takes no time, for +1/2, I'd get to hit automatically where the AoE Accurate still requires a roll to hit DCV 3, is subject to range mod's and dive for cover, etc.  That comparison makes it pretty clear Trigger would be massively underpriced if it also hit automatically.  For a player arguing they should hit automatically, I'd point this out, and tell him that, even if the rules said it hits automatically, I'd disallow that as a GM.

 

For something like the Land Mine example, I likely would not require a To Hit roll - assuming he can hit the hex isn't that big a stretch.  But any attack that would require a normal to hit roll still requires a normal to hit roll.

 

 

[Thumper]

10 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

For something like the Land Mine example, I likely would not require a To Hit roll - assuming he can hit the hex isn't that big a stretch.  But any attack that would require a normal to hit roll still requires a normal to hit roll.

Technically a Land Mine would have to hit DCV 0 to hit the "hex" it is in.  Assuming an OCV of 3, that means the Land Mine would need a 14- or less to hit its own space.  I would probably require the roll, and adjudicate a failure as "the target failed to activate the land mine," essentially treating the Attack Roll as an Activation Roll.  Build the Land Mine with an inherent +3 OCV and it will only miss on a roll of 18.  In that case, I'd probably rule it automatically hits (but, of course, still allows a Dive For Cover).

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Thumper said:

Technically a Land Mine would have to hit DCV 0 to hit the "hex" it is in.  Assuming an OCV of 3, that means the Land Mine would need a 14- or less to hit its own space.  I would probably require the roll, and adjudicate a failure as "the target failed to activate the land mine," essentially treating the Attack Roll as an Activation Roll.  Build the Land Mine with an inherent +3 OCV and it will only miss on a roll of 18.  In that case, I'd probably rule it automatically hits (but, of course, still allows a Dive For Cover).

 

This means the Trigger has a 14- activation roll, typically a -1/2 limitation.  As an AoE, the technical rule would be that it rolls and, if it misses, uses the miss rules for AoEs.  Also by RAW, it uses the OCV of the character who set it, at the time it is set, which is unlikely to be a 3 or lower.

[Thumper]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

This means the Trigger has a 14- activation roll, typically a -1/2 limitation. 

No, it has a 14- attack roll, and you can't take a Requires a Attack Roll limitation on an attack power, since the need for an attack roll is already assumed in the cost of attack powers.  The attack roll can be conceptualized as an Activation Roll, but it cannot provide a Limitation since its a special effect.

You could argue that by having the attack do nothing at all, the player is missing out on the chance to do at least some damage with a near miss, but at the same time the nature of the trigger is essentially giving the character this power for free:

• Pressure Sensistive Trigger: Clairsentience (Touch Group), Reduced Endurance (0 END) (30 Active Points); Only to Trigger Land Mine, Fixed Perception Point (Land Mine), IAF (Land Mine); Total cost: 7 points 

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

As an AoE, the technical rule would be that it rolls and, if it misses, uses the miss rules for AoEs.

Yeah, but that obviously doesn't make sense for a "land mine" power, especially if the trigger is "when sufficient pressure applied."  It would be pretty silly to have a spot 6m away from the land mine blow up if the trigger is stepping on it.  That's why I would adjudicate a miss as a "fails to go off."  I also wouldn't build a land mine the way the book suggests, as the trigger condition is poorly formulated and doesn't square with the rules (because, seriously, how does it miss with that trigger? I can't wrap my head around it).  I would build it like:

• Land Mine: 2d6 Explosive RKA (6m), Trigger (100+ kg Target  Within 2m) (45 Active Points); No Range, Extra Time (Extra Phase to Activate), Charges (1), IAF (Land Mind), Real Weapon Total cost: 9 points

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Also by RAW, it uses the OCV of the character who set it, at the time it is set, which is unlikely to be a 3 or lower.

I only assumed a OCV 3 as that's the base OCV, and thus presumably the most common, though in a heroic campaign where land mines are equipment bought with the Real Weapon limitation, I would probably limit land mines to the base OCV of 3 (because its the mine attacking, not the character) and only allow characters to add CSL's bought as +1 OCV with Placed Weapons (2 points) and Overall levels. 

[ScottishFox]

7 hours ago, Thumper said:

I only assumed a OCV 3 as that's the base OCV, and thus presumably the most common, though in a heroic campaign where land mines are equipment bought with the Real Weapon limitation, I would probably limit land mines to the base OCV of 3 (because its the mine attacking, not the character) and only allow characters to add CSL's bought as +1 OCV with Placed Weapons (2 points) and Overall levels. 

 

I thought adjacent hexes are DCV 0 vs. AoE attacks.  Leaving the possibility for the land mine to miss its own hex does not make dramatic sense.

 

This is the type of crunch that scares players away instead of drawing them to the table.

[Hugh Neilson]

Because Trigger is used for a huge variety of different effects, it becomes complex in practice.

 

7 hours ago, Thumper said:

No, it has a 14- attack roll, and you can't take a Requires a Attack Roll limitation on an attack power, since the need for an attack roll is already assumed in the cost of attack powers.  The attack roll can be conceptualized as an Activation Roll, but it cannot provide a Limitation since its a special effect.

 

Mechanically, your ruling has exactly the same mechanical result as applying a 14- activation roll to the power, with the special effect of an attack roll.  Special effects do  not change mechanical costs.

 

7 hours ago, Thumper said:

You could argue that by having the attack do nothing at all, the player is missing out on the chance to do at least some damage with a near miss, but at the same time the nature of the trigger is essentially giving the character this power for free:

• Pressure Sensistive Trigger: Clairsentience (Touch Group), Reduced Endurance (0 END) (30 Active Points); Only to Trigger Land Mine, Fixed Perception Point (Land Mine), IAF (Land Mine); Total cost: 7 points

 

The character could perceive someone stepping on him, so the only question is the range.  Trigger can be purchased two ways.  Under the first, the power is triggered by the character, who then gets to make all relevant decisions about the power's use.  Under the second, it is triggered by someone else's actions.  Practically, the ability to have a land mine go off later, far away from the character, is nowhere near as valuable, in my opinion, than the ability to trigger an attack in the midst of combat in which the character is involved, at a time when the character can choose his target.  That drawback more than offsets any benefit of any "clairsentience" or "no range modifier" effect of the trigger.

 

7 hours ago, Thumper said:

Yeah, but that obviously doesn't make sense for a "land mine" power, especially if the trigger is "when sufficient pressure applied."  It would be pretty silly to have a spot 6m away from the land mine blow up if the trigger is stepping on it. 

 

It would be pretty silly.  It also would not happen under RAW.  From 6e v2, p 40 (emphasis added):

 

If he fails his Attack Roll, the center of the Area Of Effect misses the target point by 2m for every 1 point which the Attack Roll fails by;

the maximum miss distance is half the distance to the target.

 

The target is in the same space as the land mine.  Half of zero is zero.  One could, I suppose, rule that a miss means that the scatter rules shift the center one "space" away (i.e. the character poorly placed the mine, such that its blast is directed adjacent, not straight up), consistent woth the fact tyhat a character can attack adjacent spaced HTH, so "no range" is really 1 hex/2 meters range.  For an explosion, the triggering character would take one DC less.  This is also why a no range AoE attack cannot "scatter" several meters away on a bad attack roll against a high DCV target.

 

7 hours ago, Thumper said:

That's why I would adjudicate a miss as a "fails to go off."  I also wouldn't build a land mine the way the book suggests, as the trigger condition is poorly formulated and doesn't square with the rules (because, seriously, how does it miss with that trigger? I can't wrap my head around it).  I would build it like:

• Land Mine: 2d6 Explosive RKA (6m), Trigger (100+ kg Target  Within 2m) (45 Active Points); No Range, Extra Time (Extra Phase to Activate), Charges (1), IAF (Land Mind), Real Weapon Total cost: 9 points

 

Since the silly result cannot happen by RAW, no fix like "fails to go off" is needed.  I'm not sure the book comment is intended to be a full build.  It notes a landmine would need to be buried and activated, and it would obviously be a focus (or at least have a Physical Manifestation buried under the ground),  most likely with charges.  While taking that Extra Time to activate it, the character is likely at reduced DCV (concentration), and he needs his hands free (two handed gestures or the like) to dig up the ground.  It's also pretty useless if he can't bury it (like in a concrete floor).

 

7 hours ago, Thumper said:

I only assumed a OCV 3 as that's the base OCV, and thus presumably the most common, though in a heroic campaign where land mines are equipment bought with the Real Weapon limitation, I would probably limit land mines to the base OCV of 3 (because its the mine attacking, not the character) and only allow characters to add CSL's bought as +1 OCV with Placed Weapons (2 points) and Overall levels. 

 

Dropping the character's OCV is a limitation compared to Trigger by RAW, so this should reduce the cost (not that this matters if it's equipment purchased with money, nor does OCV matter much based on the above).  If it has Real Weapon, the character would typically need WF to use it properly.  I am thinking, rather, that it would require a Demolitions skill roll to set it properly (which could be modified by taking more or less than the base activation time).

[Hugh Neilson]

18 minutes ago, ScottishFox said:

 

I thought adjacent hexes are DCV 0 vs. AoE attacks.  Leaving the possibility for the land mine to miss its own hex does not make dramatic sense.

 

This is the type of crunch that scares players away instead of drawing them to the table.

 

The adjacent hex is indeed DCV 0.  And, as noted above, RAW would not permit the mine to miss its own hex (or, at worst, would only permit it to miss by one, and only on a 15+ roll assuming OCV 3 vs DCV 0 - a 6+ OCV character would set a mine that misses by 1 hex only on a roll of 18,. a "critical miss" (a concept loathed by some groups and beloved by others).

 

That seems much more in keeping with how a land mine should operate in-game - the issue is not in the RAW, but the depth of reading required to locate all of the pertinent rules.

[Thumper]

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The target is in the same space as the land mine. 

Fair point, I hadn't considered that.