Why purchase a Skill Level with All Attacks?

[Gauntlet]

In 6th Edition rules why would someone want to purchase an All Combat Level? They cost 10 points each and only give you a single bonus that can be used either to OCV or DCV (not both at the same time) while for the same 10 points you can increase the OCV and DCV characteristics both by one (giving you bonus to OCV and DCV at the same time). Now I do understand that in heroic games you can use skill levels for additional purposes, such as increasing the damage if you use 2 of them,  but that is not much of a bonus, and in addition in a Champions game you can only use them for OCV and DCV, nothing else.

 

So why use them?

[Hugh Neilson]

First off, I am not big on "all HTH/Range" or "all combat" skill levels to begin with, as I think the cost is excessive.

 

However, where are you seeing that you cannot use skill levels for added damage in a Champions game?  It's not in my 6e RAW, or if it is I am missing it.

 

The pricing of skill levels at one time was based on Multipowers - with a 10 point pool, you could have a slot for "+2 OCV", "+2 DCV" or "+1 DC", the last being a phony cost as you can't buy "+1 DC with any attack, 0 END" directly. That would be 10 + 2 + 2 = 16/2 = 8 points.  That works, at least sort of, if you add in mOCV and mDCV, but those have been removed.  I suspect the reasoning was +1 DC with Normal attacks and Killing Attacks and Other Attacks being separated as three MP slots, but I don't buy that approach.

 

In my view, the cost of skill levels (combat and others) needs to be revisited across the board.  I'm good with the 2 and 3 point levels, even 5 point levels, but "all HTH" or "all Range" probably should be 6, and "all combat" 8. Maybe leave a 10 point option that also includes mental combat.

[CrosshairCollie]

21 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

However, where are you seeing that you cannot use skill levels for added damage in a Champions game?  It's not in my 6e RAW, or if it is I am missing it.

Champs Complete p.27 states you can use two levels for +1 DC.

[Killer Shrike]

To me, All Combat levels only start to make sense if there is a Characteristics Maxima in effect and you are at it for OCV / DCV, or if you are applying modifiers to the levels. 

[steriaca]

Well, unless you buy Inherent on OCV and DCV, they can be Drain(ed). Skill Levels, on the other hand, are imune to normal Drain powers.

 

GMs can cap maximum OCV/DCV/OMCV/DMCV. But since Skill Levels are considered skills, like Martial Arts, the user can use the manuvers and levels to go beyond the cap.

 

You might want to use them when your OCV and DCV are down because of maneuvers.

 

Of course, your mileage may vary. Check with your GM first.

[dsatow]

[NOT RULE CANON, HOUSE RULE] We used to allow levels to deactivate partial cover armor (defenses which have a roll to activate).  Each level would provide a penalty to prevent the activation of the defense.

[Gauntlet]

I was mistaken, in version 6.0 you can use skill levels for OCV or DCV or use 2 of them for an extra damage class. I do still feel that the point cost for a 10 point level is not that great as for when spending 20 points to purchase two skill levels for all combat you can have one to two bonus of OCV and DCV or one additional damage class but for only 15 points you can increase the OCV,  DCV, and add one damage all at the same time.

But as this may work better in a superheroic game where you have no characteristic maximums, in a heroic game the purchasing of skill levels definitely becomes more valuable.

 

Also note that the inherent advantage is only a +1/4 so the cost isn't that much making purchasing OCV and DCV still more valuable.

[Hugh Neilson]

While I also consider the more pricy skill levels pretty expensive for what they do, it bears noting that a DC that costs 0 END, which is what the use of 2 skill levels produces, costs more than 5 points.

[ScottishFox]

On 8/20/2019 at 9:25 PM, Killer Shrike said:

To me, All Combat levels only start to make sense if there is a Characteristics Maxima in effect and you are at it for OCV / DCV, or if you are applying modifiers to the levels. 

 

This is why my players buy them in Fantasy HERO.  Did I hit the OCV/DCV cap? 

 

Buying combat levels.

 

Sometimes they'll go with the 3 pointers for cheap OCV, but after they get tired of getting hit they will switch to the 10 pointers.

[Killer Shrike]

Oh the subject, I remembered this character who is an edge case exception...a character with Only In Hero ID that used All Combat levels in the "hero" form instead of form specific OCV / DCV. Kind of gimmicky, but the ability to trade in CSL's for damage when the situation allowed for it boosts the characters fit as the "glass cannon" of their team and is a fun little mechanical variation.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/SybylyneConspiracy/Timelines/Charlie/War-Man.html

 

Also, the character has some AoE options on his main attack, so throwing lvls into DCV or DCV and +dmg was situationally viable. Similarly at extreme range, the character could through it all into OCV and rely on range to keep themselves safe. Etc. A lot of situational configurability.

 

 

[eepjr24]

Personally, I am fond of having the options there. As a GM you can reduce the costs for them if you don't feel they are justified. But the flexibility to have two points spread across OCV or DCV or add a DC of damage at 0 END to any attack seems to be a fair trade off in flexibility. 

 

18 MPP - 2 All Combat Skills

2m +2 OCV - 10 AP

2m +2 DCV - 10 AP

2f  2d6 aid, standard effect (7 points), Variable Effect: Any attack that does DC (+1/2), SFX: Adds one DC at 0 End for 7 AP.

 

That's as close as I can get to the effect without a lot more effort. That's 24 points, so +1 would be about 12. Now, if you don't want all that flexibility, you can certainly buy whatever you want instead or tinker with the costs if you are the GM. And as you already found out, Steve does not discuss why he did things, I think with good reason to avoid having people endlessly question his decisions (which they do anyway, but at least he doesn't have to read it all in the rules forum).

 

- E

[massey]

I believe that the higher skill levels are significantly overpriced in 6th edition.  You wouldn't want to buy them.  Skill levels only make sense cost-wise if you have tons of combat options and want to be able to enhance all of them.  If your character has a 60 Str, an Energy Blast, a Flash, Mind Control, Mental Illusions, and an NND, then yeah, some levels in All Combat might be pretty darn useful.  Need to boost your OMCV?  All Combat levels will do that.  Need to add some extra D6 to that punch?  All Combat will do that.  In that and virtually only that situation, All Combat can be cost effective.

 

I don't know if it's still the case in 6th, but at least at some point in 5th edition (during one of the rounds of FAQs), skill levels increased the dice on Advantaged attacks without pro-rating them.  So your 4D6 Energy Blast, NND, Area Effect, would become a 5D6 AE NND if you dumped two skill levels into damage.  Theoretically you could take small attacks that were heavily Advantaged and bump them up higher by using skill levels and save points overall.  It could be cheaper than just buying a larger attack to begin with.  But I don't really mess with 6th edition or follow the latest rulings.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I believe that the higher skill levels are significantly overpriced in 6th edition.

 

I agree.  They are all red shifted too much.  8 points for HTH level?  Really?  When you can just buy OCV for EVERYTHING for 5 points??

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

Personally, I am fond of having the options there. As a GM you can reduce the costs for them if you don't feel they are justified. But the flexibility to have two points spread across OCV or DCV or add a DC of damage at 0 END to any attack seems to be a fair trade off in flexibility. 

 

18 MPP - 2 All Combat Skills

2m +2 OCV - 10 AP

2m +2 DCV - 10 AP

2f  2d6 aid, standard effect (7 points), Variable Effect: Any attack that does DC (+1/2), SFX: Adds one DC at 0 End for 7 AP.

 

That's as close as I can get to the effect without a lot more effort. That's 24 points, so +1 would be about 12. Now, if you don't want all that flexibility, you can certainly buy whatever you want instead or tinker with the costs if you are the GM. And as you already found out, Steve does not discuss why he did things, I think with good reason to avoid having people endlessly question his decisions (which they do anyway, but at least he doesn't have to read it all in the rules forum).

 

- E

 

First, make the Aid m.  Now the structure costs 20 points.  We'll need that if we want more than two levels.

 

Next, bump up the OCV and DCV slots to use the entire pool.

 

Now, let's bump it up a bit - we'll buy it as

 

75  MPP

15m  +15 OCV

15m +15 DCV

15m 8d6 Aid (24 or 27 standard effect - standard is normally 3/d6) to add DC's at 0 END  [actually it costs less than 15 since the Aid is Self Only]

 

120 points total (a bit less since the Aid is limited)

 

Now, go ahead and Aid your desired attack power.  That adds 24 AP (3 DCs).  Aid it again, so now you have the maximum 48 AP it can be Aided.  That's 6 DCs plus 6 points left over.  Now switch slots - you keep the 6 DC boost to an attack power, until it fades over the next 2 minutes at 5 points each PS12.  After the first PS12, you still have 43 AP, so 6 DCs.  Plus you get +15 to divide between OCV and DCV at your discretion.

 

That seems better than paying 120 points to be able to add 12 to OCV or DCV or 6 DCs, doesn't it?  Granted, you need two attack actions to get that DC boost, and two more for each additional attack you want to apply it to.

 

3 hours ago, massey said:

I believe that the higher skill levels are significantly overpriced in 6th edition.  You wouldn't want to buy them.  Skill levels only make sense cost-wise if you have tons of combat options and want to be able to enhance all of them.  If your character has a 60 Str, an Energy Blast, a Flash, Mind Control, Mental Illusions, and an NND, then yeah, some levels in All Combat might be pretty darn useful.  Need to boost your OMCV?  All Combat levels will do that.  Need to add some extra D6 to that punch?  All Combat will do that.  In that and virtually only that situation, All Combat can be cost effective.

 

Nope.  Not even there.  6e removed mental CVs from combat skill levels, requiring purchase of separate mental combat level.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

15m 8d6 Aid (24 or 27 standard effect - standard is normally 3/d6) to add DC's at 0 END  [actually it costs less than 15 since the Aid is Self Only]

And if you've only got one or two attack powers that aren't Frameworked, you can make this even more effective by buying +s to those powers. 

And don't forget that CSLs are Constant, so the OCV and DCV slots can have their cost pulled down that way. 

 

The high cost Skill Levels are just a horrible trap unless you can swing some pretty creative Limitations to get the price under control. 

[eepjr24]

20 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

First, make the Aid m.  Now the structure costs 20 points.  We'll need that if we want more than two levels.

 

Next, bump up the OCV and DCV slots to use the entire pool.

That does not illustrate the cost structure duplication. You are buying a different thing below.

20 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Now, let's bump it up a bit - we'll buy it as

 

75  MPP

15m  +15 OCV

15m +15 DCV

15m 8d6 Aid (24 or 27 standard effect - standard is normally 3/d6) to add DC's at 0 END  [actually it costs less than 15 since the Aid is Self Only]

 

120 points total (a bit less since the Aid is limited)

 

Now, go ahead and Aid your desired attack power.  That adds 24 AP (3 DCs).  Aid it again, so now you have the maximum 48 AP it can be Aided.  That's 6 DCs plus 6 points left over.  Now switch slots - you keep the 6 DC boost to an attack power, until it fades over the next 2 minutes at 5 points each PS12.  After the first PS12, you still have 43 AP, so 6 DCs.  Plus you get +15 to divide between OCV and DCV at your discretion.

 

That seems better than paying 120 points to be able to add 12 to OCV or DCV or 6 DCs, doesn't it?  Granted, you need two attack actions to get that DC boost, and two more for each additional attack you want to apply it to.

<shrug> I was not arguing that you could build a more efficient structure, just trying to get close to show how the cost might have been calculated absent any other insight into the process.

 

- E

 

[Gauntlet]

I am pretty sure that the definite answer is that it is based on the campaign you are playing in. If it does have characteristic maximum then 10 point all attacks skill levels have a definite use but if you are in a campaign that does not have characteristic maximums then you are better off purchasing OCV, DCV, and extra damage.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Even 5 point levels aren't worth it. The skill level system was broken by turning OCV/DCV into stats, then they made matters even worse by raising the costs.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

40 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Even 5 point levels aren't worth it. The skill level system was broken by turning OCV/DCV into stats, then they made matters even worse by raising the costs.

The 5s are worthwhile because and only because of the arbitrary restriction that you can't put Limitations on anything smaller. 

[Hugh Neilson]

51 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Even 5 point levels aren't worth it. The skill level system was broken by turning OCV/DCV into stats, then they made matters even worse by raising the costs.

 

Making it possible to buy OCV and DCV separately broke nothing.  In 5e, you spent 10 points to get +2 OCV or +2 DCV or +1 DC.  Or you could spend 18 points on DEX, recover 6 points from Speed and have +2 OCV and +2 DCV at all times.  So 10 points to have either, or +1/+1 or a DC, or spend an extra 2 points and have +2 OCV and +2 DCV at all times, and a  better DEX roll and initiative.

 

Skill levels were not a bargain in 5e either.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The 5s are worthwhile because and only because of the arbitrary restriction that you can't put Limitations on anything smaller. 

 

I am reasonably sure those aren't in 6th edition, either.

[ScottishFox]

On 8/29/2019 at 2:56 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I agree.  They are all red shifted too much.  8 points for HTH level?  Really?  When you can just buy OCV for EVERYTHING for 5 points??

 

All combat level - Do you want +1 OCV or +1 DCV.  Or, for the same price, +1 to BOTH all the  time.

 

The numbers don't work.

[Gauntlet]

Damn, I really started an argument!!!!!

[drunkonduty]

On 9/4/2019 at 3:10 AM, Gauntlet said:

Damn, I really started an argument!!!!!

 

Congratulations! The board thanks you. Seriously. People round here love a good argument about finicky bits of the system.

 

As to the actual point of the thread: you're correct, skill levels are definitely not priced well, as the other posters here have said. I'm sure it's been said on these forums in the past too.

 

In my Fantasy Hero Basic I was trying to price skill levels in such a way that they are worth the buying. Truth is, I'm not sure I succeeded. Actually, I'm pretty sure I didn't succeed. 

 

I guess I'll sit down and do a price comparison and see if I can come up with a rejigging that appeals to me.

 

My current project is working out campaign guidelines for a Legend of the 5 Rings game. I'm using a tier based system to put limits on characteristics, skills, OCV, DCV, Damage Classes, etc. But I want to allow characters to exceed these limits in given areas (basically a class system but I prefer the term "niches.") So I'm letting characters purchase pre-designed packages that are basically skill levels, with characters being allowed to exceed tier limits by whatever is included in the package. So a use for skill levels that may make them worth the cost. My idea waits to be tested.

 

(Hope this makes sense, written in a hurry.)

 

 

[Gauntlet]

15 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

 

Congratulations! The board thanks you. Seriously. People round here love a good argument about finicky bits of the system.

 

As to the actual point of the thread: you're correct, skill levels are definitely not priced well, as the other posters here have said. I'm sure it's been said on these forums in the past too.

 

In my Fantasy Hero Basic I was trying to price skill levels in such a way that they are worth the buying. Truth is, I'm not sure I succeeded. Actually, I'm pretty sure I didn't succeed. 

 

I guess I'll sit down and do a price comparison and see if I can come up with a rejigging that appeals to me.

 

My current project is working out campaign guidelines for a Legend of the 5 Rings game. I'm using a tier based system to put limits on characteristics, skills, OCV, DCV, Damage Classes, etc. But I want to allow characters to exceed these limits in given areas (basically a class system but I prefer the term "niches.") So I'm letting characters purchase pre-designed packages that are basically skill levels, with characters being allowed to exceed tier limits by whatever is included in the package. So a use for skill levels that may make them worth the cost. My idea waits to be tested.

 

(Hope this makes sense, written in a hurry.)

 

 

 

Hell, every game has glitches and even with any little glitches it might have, Hero is still the best game out there.