Hugh Neilson Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 11 minutes ago, dsatow said: Its a zero phase action to assign levels. So yes, if surprised or KO'd your DCV is zero instead of halved. But in most games, a difference between 1/2 and 0 is not incredible. For example, if you had an 8 CV against a person with an 8 CV, you would normally have a 11- to be hit. At half, you go to 14-. At 0, you go to 17-. The difference between 14- and 17- is ~9%. Autofire. Multiple attack. By RAW, that needs to be an "all combat" skill level to get DCV against all types of attacks - not sure how you are getting a 2 point net cost. 4 points for Nonpersistent DCV seems like it would be more appropriate. 5e set the cost of an "All DCV" skill level at 5 points, IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 14 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said: Autofire. Multiple attack. By RAW, that needs to be an "all combat" skill level to get DCV against all types of attacks - not sure how you are getting a 2 point net cost. 4 points for Nonpersistent DCV seems like it would be more appropriate. 5e set the cost of an "All DCV" skill level at 5 points, IIRC. I never said it was a net cost of 2. I said 8 but that's still slightly wrong. So, I should re-go over it. Note, I use 6th ed. Base DCV = 3, dropping this to 0 is 15 points. Buying 8 DCV levels is 40 points. But this is effectively a wash, because buying up the 3 DCV to 8 is going to cost the same. Base OCV = 3, dropping this to 0 is 15 points. Normally buying an 8 OCV costs 25 points. Buying 8 OCV levels for 3 maneuvers is 24 points. 24 -15 = 9 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted February 19, 2020 Report Share Posted February 19, 2020 7 hours ago, dsatow said: I never said it was a net cost of 2. I said 8 but that's still slightly wrong. So, I should re-go over it. Note, I use 6th ed. Base DCV = 3, dropping this to 0 is 15 points. Buying 8 DCV levels is 40 points. But this is effectively a wash, because buying up the 3 DCV to 8 is going to cost the same. Base OCV = 3, dropping this to 0 is 15 points. Normally buying an 8 OCV costs 25 points. Buying 8 OCV levels for 3 maneuvers is 24 points. 24 -15 = 9 points. OK - my confusion was from a post above, but I think it confused "cost of the levels" versus "difference between levels and an 8 OCV and DCV". The problem (rules issue, not your issue) is that the DCV levels are nonpersistent. Given that, there should be a minor cost savings, at the -1/4 level. I agree on the OCV has savings. The character is giving up some options, although he gains others (those 3 point levels can be used for damage or DCV). Overall, he should spend 32 for the DCV levels - 15 for DCV sellback = 17 versus 25 for an 8 DCV - 8 points saved (which will bite him on occasions when he has 0 DCV instead of 8 or, more likely, 4). And 24 for the maneuvers levels - 15 for OCV sellback = 9 versus 25 for an 8 OCV - 16 points saved for basically removing any other combat maneuver from his repertoire. My question would be why he is so far below human norm if he, say, throws a rock (or does not have time to place his DCV levels). Not "why does it not matter to the character", but "what SFX justify this shortfall from human norm". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted February 20, 2020 Report Share Posted February 20, 2020 On 2/19/2020 at 7:53 AM, Hugh Neilson said: My question would be why he is so far below human norm if he, say, throws a rock (or does not have time to place his DCV levels). Not "why does it not matter to the character", but "what SFX justify this shortfall from human norm". Good question! First, as noted earlier, he doesn't go to this extreme. He actually keeps a 3 DCV in a now 10 CV game. Second, he's not quite human having suffered from a horrible magical accident crossing barriers between dimensions. So his body doesn't always do what he wants with it. I've found many players will come up with whatever reasons necessary to justify their builds. If it 's just to save points and its not over powering, I've gotten to not really care. Ninja-Bear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 I buy Skill Levels with All Combat if they suit the concept for the character I want to build. It doesn't have to always and only be about point efficiency. Ninja-Bear, Eyrie and Grailknight 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pawsplay Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 Multipower, 10 point reserve 2v 1) +2 OCV 2v 2) +2 DCV 1v 3) +1 HA (HTH) 0 END 15 points, so that works out to 7.5 points per CSL. So 8 points per seems pretty close, and is slightly more flexible than this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 30 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said: I buy Skill Levels with All Combat if they suit the concept for the character I want to build. It doesn't have to always and only be about point efficiency. Shenanigans! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said: I buy Skill Levels with All Combat if they suit the concept for the character I want to build. It doesn't have to always and only be about point efficiency. Ever buy them just for the simplicity sake? I have. Lord Liaden 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 10 hours ago, dsatow said: I've found many players will come up with whatever reasons necessary to justify their builds. If it 's just to save points and its not over powering, I've gotten to not really care. That’s a point I’ve been making on anther thread. As long as everyone is ok with it it and you guys are having fun then it’s ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 21, 2020 Report Share Posted February 21, 2020 I will add that for their price under 6E, CSL with All Combat would be a better deal if they still applied to Mental Combat as well, like they did under 5E. Grailknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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