linked versus added

[Christopher R Taylor]

I've used this construct quite a bit but never really stopped to think about the mechanics of it.

Say you have a character with a set of abilities, like an energy projector who has:

 

Flight

Blast

Resistant Protection (force field, costs END)

Flash

...etc

 

These are all bought to around 40 active points.  And then you buy a Multipower to represent "powering up" so that you can do one of these things at 60 active points, one at a time.  So your 8d6 blast can be jacked up to 12d6, or your flash to 12d6.  I've done this before and it makes for an interesting character because you have to choose what you're going to be really good at vs what you have to sacrifice.

 

OK so... what makes the +4d6 blast just add to the damage and not do a secondary blast?  What game mechanic makes the difference between

 

12d6 blast

and

8d6 blast and a 4d6 blast

 

Its not triggered, its not linked, its not an aid, its just... more.

[sentry0]

I've actually wondered about this myself, I wanted to model an ability in HERO that worked similarly to how you described.  My scenario was a Blast that normally did a baseline 10 dice damage but did an extra 2 dice vs undead.  This damage would always be present vs undead regardless of any vulnerabilities the target undead may or may not have.

 

There seems to be no direct way to do this for ranged attacks short of comparatively heavy handed techniques like Aid.

 

Maybe model the extra dice after Extra Ranged Damage Classes from martial arts?  4 points per DC...

 

Alternatively, you could make a MP for each ability, one slot for the baseline attack, 1 for the powered up attack.  It would be stupidly expensive and not elegant at all but it's one approach I guess.

 

Perhaps in each scenario it should be approached in the opposite direction.  Instead of boosting an ability, buy the power level you want outright and put a limitation on it so that AP is restricted unless certain conditions are present.  The powers are essentially always nerfed except under certain circumstances.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

34 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

OK so... what makes the +4d6 blast just add to the damage and not do a secondary blast?

The fact that you bought it as +4d6 instead of 4d6.  It's different because you said so (and had another Blast to add to). 

 

3 minutes ago, sentry0 said:

I've actually wondered about this myself, I wanted to model an ability in HERO that worked similarly to how you described.  My scenario was a Blast that normally did a baseline 10 dice damage but did an extra 2 dice vs undead.  This damage would always be present vs undead regardless of any vulnerabilities the target undead may or may not have.

Sounds like a Partially-Limited Power to me.  See FRED 282 or 6E1 366.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The fact that you bought it as +4d6 instead of 4d6.  It's different because you said so

 

That's how I've always ran it and assumed, but there is no actual official Hero mechanic to make that happen, its just always been part of the game without mention or examination.

[sentry0]

28 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Sounds like a Partially-Limited Power to me.  See FRED 282 or 6E1 366.  

 

Nice, I need to read up on that one

[mallet]

Well it is kind of like buying/using Hand To Hand Attack with gives +Xd6 to STR attacks. That power is built as +5 STR with 1/4 Limitation only for damage.

 

Quote

To buy an HA, a character spends 5 Active
Points per 1d6, and applies any Advantages to
derive an Active Point total. He then applies a
mandatory -¼ Limitation, Hand-To-Hand Attack
(plus any other Limitations taken for the Power)
to derive a Real Cost. This Limitation signifies that
the HA damage only works if it adds to a character’s
damage dice based on STR (in essence, HA is
just a Limited form of STR). It cannot function on
its own, nor does it add to a character’s STR in any
other way. A character must use a minimum of
½d6 of his STR damage to use an HA.

 

(Even though HA is in effect built from STR,
generally speaking you shouldn’t treat it like STR
— treat it like the distinct Power that it is. It’s not
affected by Adjustment Powers that raise/lower
STR, doesn’t add to a character’s STR for Grabbing
or Squeezing targets, doesn’t apply to Move
By/Through damage without the GM’s permission,
can’t affect how much damage characters in
Heroic campaigns do with weapons, and so on.)

 

So maybe your +Xd6 to your Blast should also be bought with a 1/4 Limitation (Only for adding to X (Blast Power) at a min 1/2d6 damage) which is basically like Linked just worded differently so that it Add to the attack, and is not a second attack. 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

12 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

That's how I've always ran it and assumed, but there is no actual official Hero mechanic to make that happen, its just always been part of the game without mention or examination.

Yeah, I spent around ten minutes combing through FRED looking for where it said you could do it and all I really found was the section in Power Frameworks that specified when you can't do it.  It's clearly allowed, I just don't think it's ever clearly stated that it's allowed.  Maybe it was explicit in an earlier edition but didn't get passed forward? 

 

3 minutes ago, mallet said:

So maybe your +Xd6 to your Blast should also be bought with a 1/4 Limitation (Only when using X (Blast Power) at a min 1/2d6 damage) which is basically like Linked just worded differently so that it Add to the attack, and is not a second attack. 

I would be very careful with this, because I think you'd start seeing a bunch of Nd6+Nd6 attacks.  Somewhat less flexibility in reducing the output isn't something I'd expect to come up often, so I feel people would think of it as free points. 

[eepjr24]

26 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

That's how I've always ran it and assumed, but there is no actual official Hero mechanic to make that happen, its just always been part of the game without mention or examination.

6E1, 399 has an explicit reference in regards to Multipowers and VPP's. Otherwise Partially limited powers on 366 infers it but does not refer to it as +xd6. Linking powers that are additive in this way is GM ruling territory (384).

 

- E

[mallet]

14 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I would be very careful with this, because I think you'd start seeing a bunch of Nd6+Nd6 attacks.  Somewhat less flexibility in reducing the output isn't something I'd expect to come up often, so I feel people would think of it as free points. 

 

True. I was just thinking of Powers/rules that already exist that add to the damage done specifically. 

 

The next stop then for existing rules, I think, would be Deadly Attack. +3DC against specific types of targets (like in the example, Undead). I believe the Talent Builds are listed somewhere in the books if I remember correctly, so you should be able to see how it is officially built. 

 

EDIT: Found it:

 

Quote

Deadly Blow Cost: Six 8-point Combat Skill
Levels with these Limitations: Only To Increase
Damage (-½), Only With Weapons (-½), and a -2,
-1, or -½ Limitation defining the circumstances.

 

So I guess, officially, to raise the damage of an attack against a certain target, Combat Skill Levels should be used.

[eepjr24]

9 minutes ago, mallet said:

So I guess, officially, to raise the damage of an attack against a certain target, Combat Skill Levels should be used.

With Hero, there is almost always more than one way to do things, even officially. Two have already been outlined (MPP adding and Partially limited powers) above besides the one you mention. Each has advantages and disadvantages that will help you figure out which fits your particular situation better.

 

- E

[archer]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

That's how I've always ran it and assumed, but there is no actual official Hero mechanic to make that happen, its just always been part of the game without mention or examination.

 

I've always thought of it as being a Naked Advantage variant (before Naked Advantage existed).

 

If the slot was additional Running or Flight, people wouldn't have any question that it was allowed and would know instinctively to just add it to the rest of the character's movement that phase. There's no real reason why extra Blast should be handled any differently, which was probably why it was not specifically addressed.

 

< personal opinion >

 

I've done that kind of slot-splitting since I first started making characters. There's a huge character point cost difference between paying 6u or 12m for a slot particularly when most of the functionality of the 12m is never used. You might on occasion use only an inch or two of Flight but I don't recall anyone ever firing off a 1d6 Energy Blast...or a 2d6 or a 3d6. So I'm not going to pay an additional six character points to get a Blast flexibility advantage that I'll never use.

 

If a Limitation doesn't limit, it's not worth any character points. But by the same token, if an advantage doesn't give me an advantage, I shouldn't have to pay character points for that non-existent advantage. IMO.

 

Someone could argue that I should pay something (but less than the full six points) for the limited amount of flexibility I get from slot-splitting in a 60 point multipower. But that would require a heck of a lot of additional verbage in the rules and a re-write of a heck of a lot of published characters for a very small benefit.

 

< /personal opinion >

[Duke Bushido]

4 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

 but there is no actual official Hero mechanic to make that happen, 

 

 

When we're shelling out eighty bucks a pop for all thirty-nine volumes of the Seventh Edition, you are _really_ going to regret having said that out loud....

[steriaca]

Have you looked at Proportional on pages 139-140 of the Hero System Advanced Player's Guide? It does exactly what your looking for.

 

The Advantage Table

Value. Increase In Power Or Ability In A Situation Happens.

+1/2.   Ability has 1.5x as many points.

+1.       Ability has 2x as many points.

+2.       Ability has 3x as many points.

+3.       Ability has 4x as many points.

+4.       Ability has 5x as many points.

Etc...and so on.

 

Value Modifier.                     How Frequent The Increase

2 less Advantage.               Veay Uncommon.

1 and 1/2 less Advantage. Uncommon.

1 less Advantage.                Common.

1/2 less Advantage.            Very Common.

 

The minimum of the advantage is +1/4.

 

There is also a Limitation version, but it is only a Partially Limited power using Limited Power. You can have both the Proportional Advantage AND a Partially Limited power with a Limited Power in one power.