Hero system 7 ideas

[assault]

11 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

So when you read the concept of Valak - not his stats, but his story - do you think "here's a guy who should have a DEX at Olympic Gymnast levels - the top of normal human range"?  If not, I suggest keeping a 21 DEX was lazy reverse compatibility, or just lazy cut & paste character updates.  EGO was less of an issue as strong willed tended to mean high EGO (a mentalist with self-esteem issues aside).

 

21 seems rather low for a world beater like Valak.

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Ooh, I haven't engaged in a system debate in a while. 😎

 

 

Sorry it's such a minor one...

 

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I believe there are three factors to consider here. First, Champions publications over decades have established a range of Dexterity scores which keep characters competitive with each other, which still applies as far as order of action goes. Changing that significantly for one as a matter of design principle would mean changing them for all, shifting the paradigm away from what the player base is used to. Personally I don't consider it laziness to avoid unnecessary extra work that might not be welcomed by the players anyway.

 

Why write a new edition at all if the goal is to keep things the same as the old system?  OK, so we establish a new action order in which those characters who really should be fast and agile have high DEX, and characters who are not fast and agile have lower DEX.  Those who are not fast and agile, but are quick draw artists and should have average DEX but higher action order would logically have Fast Draw.

 

Yes, we would change the paradigm.  We would enter a paradigm where a Legendary DEX of 21 (that is, IIRC, the terminology the CU applies to a characteristic between 21 and 30) is not a slow, poky Super, but one which, as it is at the lower end of Legendary agility, would be more agile than most Supers, rather than below average.  I would suggest that "Legendary" is not "Laughable" would be a worthy paradigm to achieve.

 

Where I think we agree is that there is no real reason to have another edition for the purpose of keeping things pretty much the same as they have always been, with a few tweaks here and there.  If there is no perceived need to make significant change, I suggest that this means there is no need to have a new edition.

 

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Second, Champions source books have established the maximum possible human Dexterity, beyond which is "superhuman" and requires some extraordinary justification, at 30. The Characteristic Maxima standard, in games where it's applied, was never the most a human could achieve; it just required a higher expenditure of Character Points to get above 20 DEX.

 

As noted above, 21 is the start of Legendary under that source.  Should there be no range of Supers whose agility is average, above average or pretty high, but not Legendary, a smaller group whose agility is, indeed, Legendary, and an even smaller group whose agility is Superhuman?  We have this for most stats, like STR, BOD, INT and EGO.  Why not for DEX, once we have made it practical to have a combat-capable character with an average DEX and an efficient use of points?

 

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Third, Olympic gymnasts are not overall Dexterity monsters. They don't necessarily have very high reaction speeds, or are naturally good with any manual tasks. Gymnasts train intensively in a specialized set of skills. Of course being naturally agile helps tremendously, but that doesn't make them the gold standard in DEX, or automatically translate to all the benefits that Characteristic grants in Hero System.

 

OK, who is a real-life example of Legendary agility?  And would we suggest that every Superhero would be at or above that level?  Bruce Lee is often suggested.  If comparing, would you say he's about as agile as the Hulk or Ogre, or would he be more comparable to a Nightwing or Crusader?  Please feel free to provide an example or two of real-life, or even non-Supers in cinematic fiction, you would consider to be exemplars of agility.

 

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I'm sure you recognize that attracting 10% of the D&Ders is a huge "if". Any major change to the core rules would be a giant gamble, since gaining new players is far from certain, while alienating the existing player base is all but certain. Particularly now that the resources Hero Games have to throw at such a project are very limited. And it's not as simple as making the system more like a more popular one such as D&D, since that invites a player response of, "Why should I change to a system resembling what I play now, when I'm already comfortable with what I play now?"

 

Definitely.  There is no point writing a new edition which makes broad, sweeping changes unless we believe it can attract significant revenues, especially if it also has a material risk of not selling to the existing player base. 

 

The problem is that, if the existing player base is happy with their current edition of Hero, and the non-Hero base is not interested in that current edition, then there are minimal sales.  If a new edition does not attract a bunch of new sales, then it is not really worthwhile, is it?  Devoting resources to a new edition that the existing base does not buy (because they are happy with the current edition and this one does not offer enough added value to be worth the price) and the rest of the gaming community does not buy (because it does not deviate enough from the current edition, which I do not like enough to buy or play) is clearly not a recipe for financial success.

 

Could it be that 6e was, in hindsight, a financial error which generated insufficient sales from either market?  I would guess that Hero was watching each new book generate less sales as they moved into smaller niches, having already written the books for the more profitable niches.  I suspect they had to take some risk to stimulate sales, or be faced with the certainty they would have to scale back for lack of revenues.  I will suggest that they did not find the right risk.

 

Of course, that does not mean that a 6th edition with more significant, or less significant, changes would have been the right risk. 

 

23 minutes ago, assault said:

 

21 seems rather low for a world beater like Valak.

 

Therein lies the problem - you're slow and poky if you're only at the bottom end of Legendary DEX - you need to be in the middle, or even up near the top, of Legendary DEX just to be Average.  IMO,  Legendary should not be Average and vice versa.  The only way to change that, though, is to modify decades of published characters.  Of course, nothing would prevent a "Guide to Character Conversion - Drop the typical Super's DEX by 10 and SPD by 2".  They would interact with one another just like they always have.  You could drop their CVs by 3 as well, and they would interact with one another the same as always.

 

The non-Supers might be close enough to be credible, at least in numbers, and not need tweaked-out power constructs for weaponry to have agents be a credible threat, at least when they outnumber the heroes.

[assault]

Legendary DEX seems rather low for a world beater like Valak.

 

The bottom end of Superhuman seems more appropriate. Maybe 33.

[Hugh Neilson]

Why?  Is he super-agile, for some reason?  Or should any world-beater character have a 30 minimum in all characteristics, relevant to the character or not, as the price of entry?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

15 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Therein lies the problem - you're slow and poky if you're only at the bottom end of Legendary DEX - you need to be in the middle, or even up near the top, of Legendary DEX just to be Average.  IMO,  Legendary should not be Average and vice versa. 

The real problem is that there's one list of adjectives that tries to be universal.  "Legendary" DEX is pretty legendary in a 50pt game.  As the point scales go up and the numbers start to inflate accordingly, "Legendary" needs to move up with them or it stops being legendary. 

[Spence]

20 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Well, Hero Games did try something like that with Fuzion.

I don't think Fuzion's downfall was Fuzion itself. 

 

First, it released before all the benefits of e-copies, forums, social media and easy access via the internet and personal computers/devices as we know them were a thing.

 

Second, the physical books that made it into distribution were incomplete.  My copy of Fuzion is physically incomplete.  The book references switches, dials and power constructs but what they are and how to buy them cannot be located anywhere.  The book is literally missing core and fundamental information and is unplayable in the form that was delivered. 

 

I believe that the printing I received was defective and slipped through the QA process.  I can remember on the old bbs's, people would say "BS, it is on page xx under [insert title of choice]" and when I flipped to page xx the information promised was not there. 

 

With the slow trickle of information back then, and apparently no one identified the issue.  At least identified it and managed to actually notify anyone. 

 

If a large number of people, as in a print run worth, found themselves with a unplayable version of the game, their opinion would be bad.  If that number equaled or exceeded the number of people with good books, I believe that woukd be enoughto kill the game.

[assault]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Why?  Is he super-agile, for some reason?  Or should any world-beater character have a 30 minimum in all characteristics, relevant to the character or not, as the price of entry?

 

In fact the version in the books is a partly depowered one.

 

The full version is a "can take on Superman" grade character. So, yes, he would have some degree of superspeed.

Also, in practical terms, he has to be able to fight teams.

[Lord Liaden]

I rewrote Valak for my own use (which is probably why he was the first example to come to my mind) to try to get him up to that "world-beater" status, but not just hugely inflate his Character Points, or slap a giant VPP on him like so many other published Champions supers. I wanted to just tweak his concept, but otherwise stay close to the parameters established for him in his 6E and 5E incarnations. I didn't change his DEX or SPD, though, since his concept didn't seem to call for that. I agree that there should be a wider range in those areas even among the super-heavyweights. IMO not all such characters need high DEX, or even high SPD, if they're tough in other areas such as Defenses, CV and Damage Class. I believe deflating some elements of their design helps heroes stay competitive with such monster villains, since the whole point is that the heroes should ultimately be able to beat them.

 

But comparisons between Heroic and Superheroic characters are often the rub for Hero players. In practical terms there has always been one standard for "normal" people, and another for supers. Virtually by definition, they raise the bar. Batman or Captain America are supposed to be "skilled normal humans," but their comic-book feats routinely surpass what any real-world person could achieve. Comic-book Hawkeye isn't even supposed to be "peak human" in most physical categories, but has caught arrows in flight with his bare hands.

[Duke Bushido]

49 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Hawkeye isn't even supposed to be "peak human" in most physical categories, but has caught arrows in flight with his bare hands.

 

 

Hey!  I did that once!

 

I wasn't even _trying_, either.  

 

And it was my thigh.

 

But still, I caught it!  And really, that's what's important, right?

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

10 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

The real problem is that there's one list of adjectives that tries to be universal.  "Legendary" DEX is pretty legendary in a 50pt game.  As the point scales go up and the numbers start to inflate accordingly, "Legendary" needs to move up with them or it stops being legendary. 

 

Why?  Normal humans have a DEX of 8, and especially agile ones might have a 10 or even a 13.  If my Super is a high school jock, a 13 DEX seems perfectly reasonable for concept.  It's only because an absolutely average Super has a DEX of 23 from the legacy that an absolutely average Super needed an 8 CV to be remotely competetive, and the only way to get that 8 CV at a reasonable cost was to buy DEX.

 

Why should the Hulk, or the Sub-Mariner, have a Legendary DEX?  Those are not the attributes that make them Legendary. 

 

8 hours ago, assault said:

 

In fact the version in the books is a partly depowered one.

 

The full version is a "can take on Superman" grade character. So, yes, he would have some degree of superspeed.

Also, in practical terms, he has to be able to fight teams.

 

OK, if he should have superspeed from a concept basis (which it does not seem LL agrees he should), then he becomes a higher DEX character.  But a 21 DEX is supposed to be the lower end of Legendary.  It seems like that should be higher than most characters, not slower than virtually all PC level characters .

 

I do not see how not moving first on a shared phase makes one incapable of fighting teams.

 

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I rewrote Valak for my own use (which is probably why he was the first example to come to my mind) to try to get him up to that "world-beater" status, but not just hugely inflate his Character Points, or slap a giant VPP on him like so many other published Champions supers. I wanted to just tweak his concept, but otherwise stay close to the parameters established for him in his 6E and 5E incarnations. I didn't change his DEX or SPD, though, since his concept didn't seem to call for that. I agree that there should be a wider range in those areas even among the super-heavyweights. IMO not all such characters need high DEX, or even high SPD, if they're tough in other areas such as Defenses, CV and Damage Class. I believe deflating some elements of their design helps heroes stay competitive with such monster villains, since the whole point is that the heroes should ultimately be able to beat them.

 

Emphasis mine.  The problem is that 5 editions of Hero required what evolved to Legendary DEX just to be a competent combatant in Supers games.

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

But comparisons between Heroic and Superheroic characters are often the rub for Hero players. In practical terms there has always been one standard for "normal" people, and another for supers. Virtually by definition, they raise the bar. Batman or Captain America are supposed to be "skilled normal humans," but their comic-book feats routinely surpass what any real-world person could achieve. Comic-book Hawkeye isn't even supposed to be "peak human" in most physical categories, but has caught arrows in flight with his bare hands.

 

 

Conan is now on the Avengers, but heroic and superheroic characters should be vastly different.  Bats, even Cap and Hawkeye, evolved from Pulp roots.

 

I would consider Bats and Cap more than meriting Legendary DEX.  Probably Hawkeye as well, but lower level of Legendary.  Supers should have SOME legendary and even Superhuman abilities,  but should not need to be Legendary, or even Superhuman, to be barely competent.

 

And if the Hulk had a DEX of 8, Namor had an 11 and the Human Torch had a 13, Hawkeye at 21 or 23, Batman at 26 or Cap at 29 or 30 would look quite Legendary, perhaps even bordering on Superhuman.  And that rare 33, 35 or 38 (like Spider-Man) might truly feel Superhuman.

 

But when the Hulk has a DEX of 23, a 33 doesn't feel remotely Legendary, much less Superhuman.

[mallet]

I feel some of this issue is because there are different ways to build characters in Hero. You can build with great STATS or with normal STATS and great skill levels and talents and powers. 

 

For a Spider-man example we'll assume a OCV and DCV of 8 for all builds (plus a High Speed and Danger Sense) and then:

 A) is Spider-Man built with a 80 DEX (140 CP) 

B ) is he built with a 25 DEX and +10 Skill Levels (All Agility Skills), +50 Lightning Reflexes which also comes to 140 CP. 

C) is he built with 18 DEX and +12 Skill Levels (All Agility Skills), +32 Lightning Reflexes and + 4 DCV (total now 12 DCV) which also comes to 140 CP. 

 

Which of those would be more effective in capturing what Spider-Man does in the comic books? Is the difference in "going first" that different in the campaign between A) at 80 and B ) at 75 or C) at 50? 

 

I would argue that with a High Speed & Danger Sense then Spider-Man doesn't need to have a super high DEX score like 80. He could be built for the same points and be more effective with a lower DEX. In my mind Build "C" is the most "Spider-man" he goes first in almost all cases, his Agility Skills like Acrobatics are amazing, and his DCV is super high. In fact he doesn't "always go first" in combat in the comics. he is often attacked first, but his Danger Sense warns him and he aborts to Dodge, Fly Dodge, etc... to avoid the attack. In fact I think Spider-Man is known more for his Dodging ability then he is for anything else. When people talk about Spider-Man's "super agility" most of the time they are referring to how he avoids attacks, spinning around in mid-air, leaps, etc... which is all DCV and Martial Arts maneuvers and Danger Sense. 

 

So with the decoupling of STATS in 6th Ed. I think some STATS (especially DEX) have become way less necessary to have at High Levels unless it is just to brag about how high the stat is, rather then being effective in game or representing what DEX used to mean in the game. 

 

Also since Characteristic Rolls are so downplayed in RAW (a big issue I have. I always try and make Characteristic Rolls more important in my games) then a 80 DEX character with a Characteristic Roll of 25- still needs to buy Acrobatics to do Acrobatic things (recently re-enforced by Steve's answer in the questions forum) so for 143 CP  the character has Acrobatics at 25-  but my 18 DEX character can buy Acrobatics with 13 levels in it giving him an Acrobatics roll of 26- so he/she is more acrobatic then the 80 DEX character and it only cost 45 CP. Heck for 139 CP they could have an Acrobtics skill of 73-

 

EDIT TO ADD:

 

A human with Legendary DEX in real life, I would say Jackie Chan in his prime. Some of the stuff he did was absolutely amazing and borderline unbelievable. But then is that a high DEX or is it normal DEX and highly skilled/trained in Acrobatics, Breakfall, Climbing, etc...? Until base Characteristic Rolls are (by RAW) allowed to substitute for Skill training and rolls, then STATS do not matter as much as Skills (and skill levels) for performing many things seen in comics and movies. Peter Parker in the new movies never trained or studied Acrobatics but he is naturally able to do all of that because of his "high DEX" in the movies. This isn't how HERO System works currently. In the current HERO System rules Peter Parker would only have the "untrained" Acrobatics skill giving him a 4- or 5- to even attempt Acrobatics stuff (if allowed at all) unless the GM used alternate rules. 

 

So to get back on topic, if there was a 7th Edition I'd want to see Characteristic Rolls having a large role in the System, making character builds with High Stats worthwhile, but right now high STATS (in most cases excluding STR) have very little effect on how good the character is at performing the skills and feats they are known for. 

 

 

 

 

[Grailknight]

This problem is tied to the evolution and development of Hero.

 

It started as Supers and all the Characteristic values reflect that of  mid to high power Supers relative to the background world.

Later, as Heroic and Fantasy were added, the values of the characteristics of those PC's and NPC's crept toward the lower end of Supers especially in DEX, the GOD stat.

 

Later versions  kept this. The time to lower DEX  for Supers was 3rd or 4th Edition and that ship has long sailed.  It could have been done in 5th, but that would have been a gamble that the company didn't need to take after so long out of print and development of 6th  too short and too Heroic-centric IMO. 

[Lord Liaden]

4 hours ago, mallet said:

A human with Legendary DEX in real life, I would say Jackie Chan in his prime. Some of the stuff he did was absolutely amazing and borderline unbelievable.

 

I do agree about the extraordinary Jackie Chan. But if you look at the bloopers he includes at the end of most of his movies, you see how many takes he flubbed those "borderline unbelievable" moves before he managed to execute each of them perfectly. And those were rehearsed choreography, not spontaneous in the midst of a real battle.

[Duke Bushido]

Samo Hung?

 

That fella could do _insane_ things, even when morbidly obese, and well into his golden years.

 

Again, choreography, but the fact that he was doing all that stuff with the body of an elderly Wal Martian is mind-numbing.

 

 

[Genma]

Sorry, Duke

 

The Wal Martian comment got me good.🤣

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks, Amigo.  

 

I live to amuse.

 

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

Samo Hung?

 

That fella could do _insane_ things, even when morbidly obese, and well into his golden years.

 

Again, choreography, but the fact that he was doing all that stuff with the body of an elderly Wal Martian is mind-numbing.

 

 

 

The guy's name is "Samo Hung."

 

How much more manly can you get?

[assault]

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

This problem is tied to the evolution and development of Hero.

 

It started as Supers and all the Characteristic values reflect that of  mid to high power Supers relative to the background world.

Later, as Heroic and Fantasy were added, the values of the characteristics of those PC's and NPC's crept toward the lower end of Supers especially in DEX, the GOD stat.

 

Later versions  kept this. The time to lower DEX  for Supers was 3rd or 4th Edition and that ship has long sailed.  It could have been done in 5th, but that would have been a gamble that the company didn't need to take after so long out of print and development of 6th  too short and too Heroic-centric IMO. 

 

The original characteristic values were derived from the economics of the point system. They had no real meaning outside that.

 

The lower heroic values are a combination of the lower point totals and the NCM ceilings.

 

Prior to 6th edition, "lower(ing) DEX for Supers" meant enforcing the use of mechanically inferior builds. It wasn't attempted because it would have been ignored.

 

6th edition changed the economics to a degree, but not entirely, and I suspect not quite in the direction the "lower DEX" enthusiasts imagine. It's still the case, however, that lower DEX is a measure that needs to be enforced. It doesn't happen as a logical outcome of the system. It is, frankly, sub-optimal.

In a lower DEX setting, it becomes optimal to select character concepts that can justify the highest levels of DEX available, in order to gain an edge on the lumbering slowpokes.

 

In other words, it unbalances the system, favouring some character concepts over others.

[Surrealone]

 

[assault]

FWIW, my real objection to "lower DEX for supers" is to the idea that it should become the default/standard. It's perfectly fine as an option.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, there you go. IME the most frequent points of contention aren't between people who believe in opposing principles. They're between those who believe in a principle, and those to whom that principle doesn't matter.

[Christopher R Taylor]

It makes sense that superpowered people should, on the whole, be pretty good in all their stats just by being well-trained athletic individuals with superior physique.  Even a mentalist who has to fight crime is gonna stay in shape.

[megaplayboy]

I suppose you could push the rules to the outer limits of complexity and modularity and have a 1000-1200 pages spread across 2-3 giant rulebooks.  But if you do that, I expect the "next edition" to be a complete, clean break, back towards sheer simplicity, less than 100 pages.  Cut it way the hell down.  A ruleset you could learn in a weekend, as opposed to after a 2 year certificate program.  

[Spence]

10 minutes ago, megaplayboy said:

I suppose you could push the rules to the outer limits of complexity and modularity and have a 1000-1200 pages spread across 2-3 giant rulebooks.  But if you do that, I expect the "next edition" to be a complete, clean break, back towards sheer simplicity, less than 100 pages.  Cut it way the hell down.  A ruleset you could learn in a weekend, as opposed to after a 2 year certificate program.  

 

So........  put a 7th Edition cover on the 4th Edition rules? 

[Doc Democracy]

I may have said it before but, if someone wanted to do a seventh edition, they could do worse than making a truly electronic version of the rules.  Even if they did not change any of the system (though like any HERO player there are LOTS of things I would (and in my own games do) change) they could find a market for a system that seamlessly utilises the technology that almost anyone has to hand.

 

If you start with HERO Designer and think about what would be needed for a player and what would be needed for a GM to play and run the system at the table rather than design a character, you could probably come up with something very cool.  I am not sure what ability HERO might have to use some of the images and animations from Cryptic but being able to actually see your character come alive, to activate powers, to get sound effects.  There are lots of cool enhancements that could be there, even for a game designed to be played face to face at a table.  If it could then drop things into virtual tabletops like Roll20 to be used, you potentially plug into an online community.

 

Previous posts have demonstrated that the HERO community is a mature one - most folk that play the game know how they want to play and are unlikely to pick up small game refinements in a new edition, they may not even want a new edition as the books they have deliver all they need (or all they KNOW they need 🙂).  Game companies need a constantly buying audience and there is only so much HERO can do to add to what they already have available in the traditional way of things.  D&D feeds off a constant influx of new players buying rulebooks, HERO does not have that core influx and so it should be thinking of doing something different.  Superheroes are SO visual, they derive from a drawn rather than a written medium and they would be ripe for gaming in a more visual way. 

 

Of course, if noone wants to hear my flights of technical fancy, there are a few dozen pages of changes to the rules I could re-hash.  😄

 

Doc