Terran Empire plus

[Chris Goodwin]

On 3/15/2020 at 10:28 PM, Lord Liaden said:

No objection to your disagreeing with me, Duke.   I've heard other people express dislike for the unified Hero timeline, but yours is the most intense expression I've come across. I'm curious, is that dislike based on intellectual objection to it, or is it a more instinctive rejection?

 

For my part, I'm inclined to think of the sci-fi future of the Hero Universe not so much descended from the superhero setting, as the latter representing one small era preceding the former. Given that superhumans disappear in the future, there's no need to refer to or even acknowledge their past existence if using just the space/sci-fi elements. By the Terran Empire period Earth's superhumans are generally regarded as mythic figures with no real basis in fact. OTOH I personally like to draw that historical through-line. It gives me a sense of continuity, and a deep well from which I can draw for plot elements and even characters. But as I mentioned on the Turakian Age thread, my mind likes to find linkages. YMM legimately V.

 

If you look at, for instance, Marvel Comics, and their main superhero lines, their Conan lines, their Star Wars, and GI Joe/Transformers lines... think about sitting down to play in a Conan-based game and having an insistence that because Marvel had a Conan comic that we're playing in the Marvel Universe.  I wouldn't be able to get that out of my head, and would probably give up on the game, even if this theoretical version of me had thoroughly enjoyed Marvel's Conan comics.  Or sitting down to play in a modern military adventure game and have superheroes be part of the universe, no matter how peripherally, because GI Joe is also a Marvel comic.  

 

I don't know if that makes any sense the way I've described it, but that's how I feel about it.

[Lord Liaden]

When Steve Long was Hero's Line Developer, he seemed to take the attitude that certain features of the unified universe and time line can and should be ignored if they don't fit the style, theme, and/or genre of game you want to play. Take Hudson City. Technically it's on the same modern-day Earth plus superheroes that the Champions Universe books are set in. Yet explicitly, the non-powered criminals and vigilantes based in Hudson don't operate outside the city, and supers from outside don't visit there. No in-setting reason for that is given, but the meta-reason is that HC is designed for modern-day adventure gaming, not supers.

 

Or how about Steve's small supplement for pulp gaming, Inner-Earth, which lays out a vast subterranean ecosystem and preserve for extinct life forms and cultures, running from South America under the Atlantic to Europe. The book suggests possible linkages to other parts of the Champions Universe, showing I-E is part of the same world. But because it was written for pulp genre gaming, no book in the Champions line makes any reference to it.

[Spence]

38 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

When Steve Long was Hero's Line Developer, he seemed to take the attitude that certain features of the unified universe and time line can and should be ignored if they don't fit the style, theme, and/or genre of game you want to play. Take Hudson City. Technically it's on the same modern-day Earth plus superheroes that the Champions Universe books are set in. Yet explicitly, the non-powered criminals and vigilantes based in Hudson don't operate outside the city, and supers from outside don't visit there. No in-setting reason for that is given, but the meta-reason is that HC is designed for modern-day adventure gaming, not supers.

 

Pretty much the entire line was written that way. 

 

For me I used Hudson City for all my games. Champs, Dark Champs, Pulp and so on.  Of all the city books, Hudson City was the only one complete enough to use.  Of the rest I always hoped that they would complete Vibora Bay, but it never happened.

 

Hudson City though.  That was one of the only modern cities I ever saw for RPG's that was actually usable.  I have used it for everything from Champs to Savage Worlds to Traveller.  Never needed it for Call of Cthulhu since they tend to use real cities. 

 

What made Hudson City stand out from the rest you ask? The most important ingredient.  It has an actual MAP.

[KawangaKid]

For me, while I enjoyed the rich detail of the Terran Empire setting, I have a related, similar response to the 'maps' comment.

 

Some of this falls on the 'art', but it's a bigger thing than that -- setting design. I think I was looking for something in the setting that gave the Terran Empire its character visually, perhaps:

- ship designs broken down by manufacturer or major factions;

- uniforms, clothing, and space suit design

- interior layouts of ships, arrangements of space stations, and yes maps of settlements, towns, and cities.

 

Sadly, I seem to have misplaced my paper copy (or it got discarded in one of the flooded storage incidents, and I didn't notice). I'll have to pick up a digital copy.

[Lord Liaden]

Spacers Toolkit helps somewhat with your first point. It has more spacecraft and vehicles from the Terran Empire and for the other major alien powers, following the design guidelines for each civilization, with illustrations. But overall, I agree, more setting-based art would certainly have been helpful. Of course as has been discussed elsewhere regarding Hero books, art is one of the most expensive components of game books.

[Lord Liaden]

On the Turakian Age thread, several posters noted that religion is developed to a greater degree and in more culturally-relevant ways than is typical for fantasy RPG settings. I've come to believe that's a general concern for Steve Long, because DOJ/Hero's sci-fi setting books also pay an unusual amount of attention to it. The most common or distinctive religions within the Terran Empire receive varying amounts of attention, but the spiritual beliefs and practices of several alien species are laid out in substantial detail. To some extent that trend is continued in Worlds Of Empire with natives of some of the worlds described, and in Champions Beyond mostly for those civilizations given the most attention; although in the latter two books religious descriptions are rather more abbreviated.

[KawangaKid]

On 6/18/2020 at 9:03 AM, Lord Liaden said:

On the Turakian Age thread, several posters noted that religion is developed to a greater degree and in more culturally-relevant ways than is typical for fantasy RPG settings. I've come to believe that's a general concern for Steve Long, because DOJ/Hero's sci-fi setting books also pay an unusual amount of attention to it. The most common or distinctive religions within the Terran Empire receive varying amounts of attention, but the spiritual beliefs and practices of several alien species are laid out in substantial detail. To some extent that trend is continued in Worlds Of Empire with natives of some of the worlds described, and in Champions Beyond mostly for those civilizations given the most attention; although in the latter two books religious descriptions are rather more abbreviated.

 

Well, I think it adds flavor. Most definitely. It certainly worked for Fading Suns as a whole.

[chrisbrico]

I'm glad to see the Terran Empire has its fans!  I always loved it, and I'm sorry I was never able to put a group together to explore it.  I'm also sorry DOJ decided to abandon it so quickly before it got a chance to develop.  When I read Steven Long's post that DOJ was not going to support the STAR HERO line anymore due to poor sales, it broke my heart.

 

Had I been able to get my own TE campaign off the ground, I'd meant to set it in 2636 CE, not long after Marissa III's reign began.  The sourcebook is terrific, with enough aliens, political intrigue, plot threads, and all else that I'm sure I could've kept a campaign going for a while.  I agree with the idea the setting would've benefited from having some "official" modules devoted to it from DOJ.  If they'd pushed the setting more, it might've developed more of a fan following, and it might've grown large enough to keep around, much as CHAMPIONS has survived down through the years.  Certainly TE can be converted to Sixth Edition HERO with just a little work; it would've made a great complement to the revised STAR HERO.

 

Back when Steven Long wrote the Writers Guidelines for the Fifth Edition (has it really been so long ago?), he mentioned DOJ might also be interested in fiction collections set in the HERO Universe.  To anyone's knowledge, has there ever been any fan fiction written for the Terran Empire setting?  I was intrigued by the idea of TE fiction, so much so I actually sat down and wrote a first draft out for the 2018 National Novel Writers' Month contest.  The story was weak, but it was fun to write and helped me realize a full TE fiction series could be possible, in the hands of a writer more gifted than myself!  I doubt a TE fiction series is gong to happen at this late date, but if someone were to attempt it, do any of you think there's be an audience for it?

[archer]

On 5/4/2020 at 7:46 PM, Lord Liaden said:

When Steve Long was Hero's Line Developer, he seemed to take the attitude that certain features of the unified universe and time line can and should be ignored if they don't fit the style, theme, and/or genre of game you want to play.

 

That's certainly how I look at the Terran Empire era.

 

If I'm playing in the Terran Empire era, whether in a campaign set there or time traveling into it, I'm in the Terran Empire era. But if I'm in the year 2020, the Terran Empire is but one of many possible futures, even if someone time travels from the Terran Empire and shows me a history book.

 

Look at Marvel's first big attempt at a unified timeline:

 

1) present day

2) Bionic Wars - Deathlok - sort of apocalypse near future

2) War of the Worlds - the second "Martian" invasion finished off the Deathlok era. Killraven was eventually instrumental in driving the invaders out.

3) Mankind recovered and discovered interstellar travel. Attracted the attention of the Badoon who enslaved Earth and its handful of colonies. The original version of the Guardians of the Galaxy formed as renegade freedom fighters.

 

I mean, it was a neat idea and they wrote some good stories time traveling forward & backward and tried to make a comic book out of the Guardians. But as soon as someone at Marvel wanted to write a story which seriously conflicted with that timeline, they found a way of making that happen.

 

So as far as I'm concerned, the second that Dr. Genetika manages to devolve humankind into hyperactive lemurs, the Terran Empire quits being one of the possible futures of humanity.

 

[Lord Liaden]

Heck, I've lost count of how many times DC Comics has rebooted their continuity. 😵

 

On 7/11/2020 at 9:11 AM, chrisbrico said:

Back when Steven Long wrote the Writers Guidelines for the Fifth Edition (has it really been so long ago?), he mentioned DOJ might also be interested in fiction collections set in the HERO Universe.  To anyone's knowledge, has there ever been any fan fiction written for the Terran Empire setting?  I was intrigued by the idea of TE fiction, so much so I actually sat down and wrote a first draft out for the 2018 National Novel Writers' Month contest.  The story was weak, but it was fun to write and helped me realize a full TE fiction series could be possible, in the hands of a writer more gifted than myself!  I doubt a TE fiction series is gong to happen at this late date, but if someone were to attempt it, do any of you think there's be an audience for it?

 

I'm not aware of anyone having created prose fiction set in the Terran Empire. As much as I like the setting, a lot of it follows familiar sci-fi themes and tropes, so I would prefer to see fiction playing up some of its more distinctive elements, e.g. being caught in an underworld war between the Clone Mob, the Hzeel Outfit, and/or the Psindicate; or conflict with one or more of the Void Messiahs of the Church of the Infinite Dark. (See Scourges Of The Galaxy for more on these.)

 

To be honest, though, as inspiration for a series of stories, the Alien Wars period seems to me to hold even more potential. The threat and drama are built in, and there are many episodes in the long war with the Xenovores that could easily form the basis for a story. I can envision something akin to Fred Saberhagen's Berserker War short stories.

[C-Note]

In the Galactic Champions sourcebook, the Galactic Federation follows the Terran Empire. I'm curious if anyone has set their campaign during this time period. It seems like it would be ideal for a Lensman (Star*Guard) space opera campaign against Istvatha V’han.

[Lord Liaden]

To be honest, I found the Galactic Federation in that book too big and powerful, too peaceful and enlightened for my taste. I don't object to any interstellar dominion having one or two of those qualities, but all together they start to bore me.

 

OTOH I did find ways to import several of the characters from Galactic Champions to my present-day Champions campaign.

[Lawnmower Boy]

On 7/11/2020 at 6:11 AM, chrisbrico said:

I'm glad to see the Terran Empire has its fans!  I always loved it, and I'm sorry I was never able to put a group together to explore it.  I'm also sorry DOJ decided to abandon it so quickly before it got a chance to develop.  When I read Steven Long's post that DOJ was not going to support the STAR HERO line anymore due to poor sales, it broke my heart.

 

Had I been able to get my own TE campaign off the ground, I'd meant to set it in 2636 CE, not long after Marissa III's reign began.  The sourcebook is terrific, with enough aliens, political intrigue, plot threads, and all else that I'm sure I could've kept a campaign going for a while.  I agree with the idea the setting would've benefited from having some "official" modules devoted to it from DOJ.  If they'd pushed the setting more, it might've developed more of a fan following, and it might've grown large enough to keep around, much as CHAMPIONS has survived down through the years.  Certainly TE can be converted to Sixth Edition HERO with just a little work; it would've made a great complement to the revised STAR HERO.

 

Back when Steven Long wrote the Writers Guidelines for the Fifth Edition (has it really been so long ago?), he mentioned DOJ might also be interested in fiction collections set in the HERO Universe.  To anyone's knowledge, has there ever been any fan fiction written for the Terran Empire setting?  I was intrigued by the idea of TE fiction, so much so I actually sat down and wrote a first draft out for the 2018 National Novel Writers' Month contest.  The story was weak, but it was fun to write and helped me realize a full TE fiction series could be possible, in the hands of a writer more gifted than myself!  I doubt a TE fiction series is gong to happen at this late date, but if someone were to attempt it, do any of you think there's be an audience for it?

 

I'm going to agree with Lord Liaden that the Alien Wars setting has more potential for both RPG and fan fiction purposes, and that the Galactic Federation period only really seems interesting as the backdrop for a Galactic Champions campaign. When I dabbled in CU fan fiction, I wrote a time travel caper drawing together Bronze Age (Kung Fu stylings of 1975!), 2012 (because that was then), 2600, and 3012. I'm guessing at the "2600" date. I thought that I had avoided the era of Empress Marissa, but it's been a long time since I wrote the material, and I suspect that my recollections are wrong. The Civil War-Marissa-Stephen period is the centre of gravity of the whole Terran Empire storyline, and knowing me I might have tried to rehabilitate Stephen, as I think clones get a bum rap in science fiction. Anyway, Sovereign (the GC villain) is trying to use time travel devices to screw around with history and prevent the rise of the Galactic Federation, and for some reason the 2600ish era was where he was trying to do it, and modern super heroes get mixed in because of course they do.   

 

But! Self indulgence aside, the point I'm trying to get across is that after setting my time machines in motion and working out my story, I found myself gravitating not to the periods I had chosen for episodes of the fan fiction, but to the dark days of the Alien Wars. It is just a whole lot cooler than the Terran Empire, which, while it has a lot to recommend it, doesn't transcend the sum of its parts. 

[Lord Liaden]

To be honest, I find the various alien civilizations of Hero's Milky Way more interesting than any incarnation of human space. If I was to write fan fiction for this setting, I'd probably locate it in the Velarian Confederation. The fractiousness of the alliance between its member species, the influence of the Scomaru Shaan religion, the looming threat of the neighboring psionic Varanyi Empire, raise intriguing possibilities in my mind.

 

I mean, in the present day the Renghadi and Fassai are allies in a civil war to take control of the Confederation, but in two centuries those two races will themselves engage in a war that will shatter the Renghadi home world. There's a lot you could do with that kind of turbulence.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Whereas for me it's always the deep past that fascinates. Sovereign's time travel device was linked to the Basilisk Cauldron in some way that I cannot now recall, and the Mandalorian space elves are linked to the actual elves of the Turakian Age, their decadent Valdorian descendants, and before them, the Martians. Meanwhile, ancient Xenovore nanotech left over from their invasion sleeps in the heart of the Galactic Confederation, waiting for something to call it to life. (Maraud and Sovereign are my two favourite Galactic Champions villains.)

[chrisbrico]

I like the points everyone makes, but I have to admit I remain a Terran Empire/Marissa III junkie, even after all these years.  I liked ALIEN WARS too, but 90% of that setting is built strictly for Military Sci-Fi campaigns, where TERRAN EMPIRE offers that and more besides.  I'll allow a good chunk of EMPIRE is derived from the best (and worst) of  STAR WARS and STAR TREK, but a good GM can take the building blocks provided by EMPIRE and create something fresh and original.  I must respectfully disagree with Lawnmower Boy about the whole of EMPIRE not being greater than the sum of its parts.  Between the various alien races, histories, political intrigues, technologies, religions/philosophies, criminal institutions, and the shadows of the recent past (ALIEN WARS) affecting the "present," I've no doubt I could've kept an EMPIRE campaign going for a long time--assuming I'd ever found anyone who wanted to play, that is!

 

It seems I'm alone on the island when it comes to TERRAN EMPIRE, but for my money it was one of the high points of HERO 5E, and it inspired at least one 50,000 word first draft novel out of me (not to mention a few dusty old modules), so I'll always love it.  Long live the Empress Marissa III!