Paying CP for Magic Items

[Tywyll]

 

I don’t really grok paying for ‘magic items’ in a Fantasy Hero game. I get it in a Superheroic one, but in a Heroic level one, it just doesn’t make any sense to me.

 

In most games, items are a reward, and while yes, unlimited items can be problematic in any system, typically it’s not an issue. I get that in Hero it's points that build your character, but when you have no choice in what gear you find, how do you manage it? Do players spend 4-6 scenarios saving xp and not improving only to hope for an item that they buy and can still lose? That's just never set well with me as a game mechanic. The idea that Bob the fighter might want a sword that costs 20 points and, what happens exactly? When he commits to buying it but doesn't have the xp? Can he use it? If he does but next session it gets eaten by an acid dragon, is he still 20 points in the hole even though he no longer has the item? I have read the FH sections on items but they never really seem to explain clearly enough (for me anyway) how it actually plays out. since characters improve so slowly, a magic weapon and suit of armor could literally be your entire improvement for the whole campaign, which begs the question, why is bob the fighter not learning and training like everyone else? God forbid you find a 50-80 point relic!

 

Looking at the items in FH, at the end of a long campaign say your Paladin character has gained three powerful items: The Paladin's Sacred Sword, the Sun God's Aegis, and the Armor of Healing (very ‘in character’ if you were running a dungeon crawl style game based on D&D tropes). That's 65 points! And those are all independent (assuming 5th edition) meaning they could all be lost and your character has lost all that potential for improvement. At 3 xp a session, that's 22 sessions of game play or 5 1/2 months of once a week sessions! 0.0 Meanwhile, Mani the Mage has parlayed that into 195 real points worth of spells (assuming you lived in a Tarakian Age campaign) or just 65 points worth of never-taken-away improvement. Did the Paladin just sit on all that xp or when they pick up their first item and start using it regularly, are they in debt? And what about the items they found along the way? The lesser items before they found these big ones? Those items…are they still in debt for those too? How could you ever improve in a campaign with even a modicum of magic items (say in a world that is based on D&D conversions or something)?

 

Yes, 5th ed D&D came up with a good mechanic to justify it, but until now, Hero has still expected you to pay for items while you don't pay for items that are mundane but might do the equivalent function (a torch or lantern are free, a glow rod that produces the same amount of light and is possibly even limited as they are, costs points). 

One argument might be, well magic items go beyond what free gear can accomplish, so that’s why you should pay for it. But so can spells and racial powers, and you can’t lose them!

 

--

Matthew Skail

 

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

If you assume that your total points are a measure of your power level and not a "currency" then it... hopefully? ... makes more sense.  

 

If Bob the Fighter above finds a magic sword, compare that to, for instance, Batman picking up a bad guy's tommy gun.  (Old school Batman.  Older, even.)  He might use it to cover the bad guys; he might fire a burst to rip up a getaway car's tire.  If he really thinks he needs to end someone, he might very well do it with that gun.  Next issue?  He's probably forgotten all about it.  If, on the other hand, the writer has decided that he likes the idea of Batman carrying around a tommy gun, and he has it next issue, then that's when we consider Batman to have "spent the points" to carry a tommy gun.  

 

If Bob the Fighter doesn't spend the points, then his ability to keep and use the magic sword is entirely up to the GM.  If he spends the points, then... to be honest, it's still up to the GM, but if afterward he loses the sword, he should either have a chance to get the sword back, or he should get the points back.  (Or maybe part of its magical properties are that it finds its way back to him.  The Focus Limitation gives plenty of ideas that can be adapted to this.)  

 

Consider also this.  With GM permission, Bob could begin the game carrying a magic sword, if he paid the points for it (maybe it's an heirloom handed down from his grandfather, Robertus).  Or, once he has some saved up XP and decides he wants a magic sword, he could say to the GM:  "I'm going to find an enchanter and commission a magic sword."  Or even, "Hey GM, I'd like to acquire a magic sword soon, and I've got some XP saved up..." and leave it up to the GM how you get it.  You could assume, if you wish, that spending the points on a magic item "attunes" you to it the way it does in D&D 5e (and maybe you have to spend an hour studying it, getting a feel for it, and so on, in order to spend the points and to attune with it).  That's how it becomes part of your character sheet rather than just another piece of equipment.  

 

There's sort of an unwritten rule in Fantasy Hero going back decades that "there shouldn't be assembly lines of mages turning out +1 swords by the bucketful" or similar.  There have been rules in previous editions to enforce that,; there used to be a Limitation to the effect that the points you spend on the item are bound into it permanently, but they sort of turn those points into a permanently spendable currency rather than a meta-level measure of power.  It also threw problems when, for instance, that fighter PC wanted to go to an enchanter and commission a magic sword -- technically, the enchanter paid their points, permanently, in that case, so the fighter would still have a magic sword without paying points for it.  That also led to silliness such as having special, magical materials, that the enchanter might send you on a quest for, that had character points embedded in them, that the enchanter could use to build the sword with.  Which certainly matches up with some source material, where the enchanter sends you on a quest in order to gain the magic sword, but... doesn't really solve the problem we're talking about.  The best way to solve the "assembly lines of magic items" "problem" is for the GM to say no, there aren't assembly lines of magic items in this world.  (And if the GM wants a magic item rich world?  It's easy enough for the GM to say yes instead of no.)  

 

Edited to add:  And also, a magic item doesn't have to have the Focus Limitation!  If it doesn't, then it doesn't get taken away.  It could certainly be Restrainable, but without it being a Focus, it's basically another power that Bob has.  Its special effect is that it's a magic sword, but it's not a Focus Limitation when he can point his hand, confidently call out "Swordicus!  To me!" and it flies to him like Mjolnir to Thor.  

 

I hope this is helpful.  If not, ask more questions!   

[Tywyll]

Okay, I'm not worried about the magic-item-assembly "problem". That's a setting issue. If you can buy jet boots for money in a Space Hero game and nothing breaks, then certainly the same could be said about magic items in a fantasy setting. It's just up to the Gm to set the world dial on costs and difficulties of procurement.

 

It's the item as reward which is a problem. In your example of the fighter saving up for a magic item, seriously how long is he holding on to those points? And if you find an item you like early on, it feels like the Gm kind of basically says, sorry you don't get to advance your pc for six months if you want this item, which feels like BS. 

 

I don't know, I guess it is because I don't accept the argument that CP actually equate to a character's power, just really to their spot light grabbing. So paying points for things you can lose (Independent) just don't make sense.

 

I suppose that treating unbought items as easily destroyable vs items you can't really lose forever is kind of okay. But what happens when you find a more powerful item later? Can you trade in your real cost for the new one? 

[Chris Goodwin]

 

8 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

It's the item as reward which is a problem. In your example of the fighter saving up for a magic item, seriously how long is he holding on to those points? And if you find an item you like early on, it feels like the Gm kind of basically says, sorry you don't get to advance your pc for six months if you want this item, which feels like BS. 

 

If one character is spending their XP as they go, for a Skill Level here, a stat increase there, and the other is saving for a big buy... I mean, receiving a magic item can count as advancement too.  

There are other ways to do it as well, adapted from earlier Champions works.  Aaron Allston once suggested that a player might ask a GM something like, "Can you withhold some of my XP for a while?  I want to gain a mystery power of some kind."  To me, "I want to gain a magic item" sounds like something eminently worth banking points for, whether you're banking them on your character sheet, or in the GM's secret notes.  

 

Ultimately, though, if a 200 point fighter picks up a 15 real point magic sword and expects to keep it, shouldn't he then be considered a 215 point character?  

 

I've gone through heroic level campaigns in the past where I've looked down at my character sheet, after it's gone on for a while, and noticed that I have 25 XP or more that I haven't spent; depending on the game, that can be 5-8 sessions (which at the pace we were playing, was probably 3 weeks IRL).  I've also had campaigns where I've played a wizard who started with a magic item because she made it herself.  

 

There's also the idea of the resource pool, which is normally used for equipment.  The idea is that depending on the power level of the campaign, each character might have 50 or 75 points worth of equipment that they're carrying around.  Their mundane equipment counts, and so if someone finds a magic sword, they just pick it up and carry it, and it slots into their resource pool.  

 

You could also be straight with the players up front.  "Sometimes there will be magic items given as loot.  You can consider them to be XP 'windfalls' if you want.  I'll try to be fair to everyone, but if we get to a certain point in the campaign and you feel like you've been shortchanged, we can make that up with additional XP or an extra item for you."  The XP awards are guidelines, and points worth of stuff can certainly be awarded every bit as much as points.  

[Lee]

4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

I don’t really grok paying for ‘magic items’ in a Fantasy Hero game. I get it in a Superheroic one, but in a Heroic level one, it just doesn’t make any sense to me.

 I agree. I would never charge character points for items the character(s) "found" in the game. I also don't buy the idea of "not a currency" either.

 

For example, let's say that Paladin character, who is wearing non-magical chainmail, finds in the treasure trove of the boss the party has just defeated, as shiny new suit of non-magical plate armor that fits! It will increase the character's effective point value even though it is non-magical. Do you charge the character CP's for the non-magical plate? If so, what if instead, the character goes to the local city and buys the armor from the armorsmith there for, say, 500 gold pieces. Should the character also have to pay in character points in addition to the gold? I'd say no.

 

Well, if you're not going to charge CP's for the non-magical plate (or sword or dagger or whatever), why charge CP's for a magical one? Sure, being magical may increase the item's capabilities beyond those of an equivalent non-magical version, but in either case, they increase the character's effective point value, just one more than the other. And, what about the case where you have a magical set of chainmail that has +10 resistant defenses but, there is also an armorsmith who can forge a set of non-magical plate that has the same defenses? Do you charge CP for one and not the other? That doesn't seem right to me. Do you charge CP for both? Then having weapons and armor price lists (in currency) is meaningless. It seems to me that the answer is don't charge CP for either.

 

Now, the GM will need to make sure that the character(s) opponents will more often have equally powerful items to offset the ones they let the character(s) "find". But, before anyone says anything about a potential arms race, bear in mind it's the GM giving out the magic items and the GM equipping the adversaries. So, effectively the GM is in an arms race with themselves. They can stop the arms race anytime they want simply by not giving out any more magic items.

 

That said, the GM will need to be careful not to give the character(s) too many, too powerful items, too quickly. To mitigate this, I could see using the experience points the character's have accumulated as a guide to how powerful an item to give. You wouldn't necessarily want to give a 50 point magic item to a character who had only accumulated 10 XP. But, if they'd been campaigning long enough to have accumulated 60 XP, a 50 point magic item might be appropriate. However, their accumulated XP would only be a guide and no XP would be spent on the "found" item.

 

The only time I'd charge CP's for a magic item would be if the character wanted to forge/enchant a brand new item, assuming I didn't have any crafting rules in place for creating new items. Then, I think it would be appropriate. It would be similar to the way in D&D you create magic items by spending XP (and gold for materials) to create a new item.

 

5 hours ago, Tywyll said:

The idea that Bob the fighter might want a sword that costs 20 points and, what happens exactly? When he commits to buying it but doesn't have the xp? Can he use it? If he does but next session it gets eaten by an acid dragon, is he still 20 points in the hole even though he no longer has the item?

If you ARE going to charge him 20 points for the sword and it gets eaten, the way I'd work it would be to have him come across another (but different) 20 point item as soon as you can. That would seem to make it like an accessible focus in a supers game where someone can take away your focus, but it's never gone permanently. So, they're down 20 points but just for a short while. Making the item different than the sword makes it make more sense (to me at least). It's not likely that you'd come across a sword that is exactly like the one the dragon ate. But, you might find something just as useful.

 

Anyway, that's my take on it. YMMV (probably a lot).

 

Lee

[Chris Goodwin]

8 minutes ago, Lee said:

Well, if you're not going to charge CP's for the non-magical plate (or sword or dagger or whatever), why charge CP's for a magical one? Sure, being magical may increase the item's capabilities beyond those of an equivalent non-magical version, but in either case, they increase the character's effective point value, just one more than the other. And, what about the case where you have a magical set of chainmail that has +10 resistant defenses but, there is also an armorsmith who can forge a set of non-magical plate that has the same defenses? Do you charge CP for one and not the other? That doesn't seem right to me. Do you charge CP for both? Then having weapons and armor price lists (in currency) is meaningless. It seems to me that the answer is don't charge CP for either.

 

Does this then mean that a character can start the game with magical swords and armor?  If I don't have to pay points for magical plate, then why would I ever not have it?  

Another issue is, what if one or more players start feeling shortchanged?  The last three magic items found were all fighter-y items, so Bob the Fighter is sitting pretty, at 200 points with another 150 points worth of magic items, but Alice the Rogue and Chuck the Wizard (at 200 points each) don't have the fun stuff and are a little miffed.  Further still, if Chuck the Wizard can enchant his own items... does he pay points for them?  If Bob doesn't have to pay points for his magic items, then Chuck shouldn't have to either.  Alice is feeling a little more slighted now.  Hopefully Bob and Chuck don't wake up one morning with their throats cut...

 

When we say "the GM charges points" and "the character pays points" and "the power costs points", that's shorthand for what we're really doing, and comes out of years of habit to boot.  You're not "paying" anything; they're on a balance sheet.  When you "pay" them you're not handing them over, nor are you transferring them out of your account to the GM's, or anything else.  (This was the problem with Independent as a Limitation and permanently losing points...)  

 

Mundane equipment that costs no points is considered to be entirely at the GM's discretion.  If you start with a mundane sword and armor, and it gets taken away when you're captured, or destroyed by rust monsters, or falls in the ocean... it's gone.  It's pretty likely that you'll be able to get replacements at the next town with a trading post or armourer, but they'll be as mundane as the previous set.  

 

The reasons we use character points as a measure of character power are, generally speaking, to have PCs start at the same level, to have them advance at the same level, and to have some way to roughly compare in power level with one another and the opposition.  

 

If I'm not going to charge a player character points for magic items, I'll use resource pools to balance them instead.  

 

5 hours ago, Tywyll said:

The idea that Bob the fighter might want a sword that costs 20 points and, what happens exactly? When he commits to buying it but doesn't have the xp? Can he use it? If he does but next session it gets eaten by an acid dragon, is he still 20 points in the hole even though he no longer has the item?

 

Bob would get the points back to spend on something else.  Which could be a different magical sword, but it could as easily be magical armor, a magical rope or a magical 10' pole.  Or he could spend it on his stats, skills, talents, etc.  

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

20 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Another issue is, what if one or more players start feeling shortchanged?  The last three magic items found were all fighter-y items, so Bob the Fighter is sitting pretty, at 200 points with another 150 points worth of magic items, but Alice the Rogue and Chuck the Wizard (at 200 points each) don't have the fun stuff and are a little miffed.  Further still, if Chuck the Wizard can enchant his own items... does he pay points for them?  If Bob doesn't have to pay points for his magic items, then Chuck shouldn't have to either.  Alice is feeling a little more slighted now.  Hopefully Bob and Chuck don't wake up one morning with their throats cut...

Following Lee's excellent point above, why are magic items being treated differently? 

Bob, Alice, and Chuck just got stripped of their gear and tossed in a cave.  Boy that sucks!  But Chuck stepped in bat poo so now he's back to flinging fireballs.  And Bob found a dead guy wearing still-usable chainmail and a not-that-rusty sword.  Alice hasn't seen a bow or arrows in two sessions. 

Or maybe Alice only wears light armor to stay sneaky while Bob's a fighting man and Chuck is one of those bizarre dwarf-trained weirdos what with their casting in armor and all.  The party finds three suits of really nice (but mundane) plate.  Alice once again gets shafted! 

Are those situations really any different at all?  I say they're not.  I say that any equipment imbalance is something to be concerned about, magic or no magic. 

[Lee]

33 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Does this then mean that a character can start the game with magical swords and armor?  If I don't have to pay points for magical plate, then why would I ever not have it?  

 

Can a character start the game with a magical sword? Yes and they would have to pay for it. What I was talking about, and inferred from the OP's initial post, was for magical items "found" or given out as a reward. If you find a magical item in the villain's lair, I don't think you should pay for it. If you start out with the item, I see it just as if you crafted one. Make sense? (I mean is it any clearer what I meant--it's probably still nonsensical, meaning I'm totally wrong)

 

33 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Another issue is, what if one or more players start feeling shortchanged?

Yes, absolutely this is an issue. But, since the GM controls what items are found, they can control how evenly distributed they are. If in session one, the stuff is fighter-y, then in session two the GM should make the stuff mager-y and session three rouger-y. Or, make sure each character gets a little something of (nearly) equivalent value.

 

33 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Mundane equipment that costs no points is considered to be entirely at the GM's discretion.  If you start with a mundane sword and armor, and it gets taken away when you're captured, or destroyed by rust monsters, or falls in the ocean... it's gone.  It's pretty likely that you'll be able to get replacements at the next town with a trading post or armourer, but they'll be as mundane as the previous set.

Exactly. So, if the "magic" equipment is functionally equivalent to "non-magic" equipment (my magic chainmail vs. non-magic plate example), you'd charge points for the magic set but not the non-magic set (being "mundane")? And, if they go to the next town an buy a set "as mundane as the previous set", would you charge XP for it? If not, they why charge for the "magic" set if they are functionally equivalent?

 

33 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

The reasons we use character points as a measure of character power are, generally speaking, to have PCs start at the same level, to have them advance at the same level, and to have some way to roughly compare in power level with one another and the opposition.

I agree, character points are pretty good at roughly comparing power levels and I would include the "cost" of any magic items (or items not paid for by points) in the total when comparing. That's what I was getting at when I mentioned using the XP the character's had gained as a guide to determine how powerful an item to give a character. I just don't think it is fair (or even makes any sense) that a character be charged XP for an item they "find".

 

33 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Bob would get the points back to spend on something else.  Which could be a different magical sword, but it could as easily be magical armor, a magical rope or a magical 10' pole.

We agree, here.

 

Lee

[Shoug]

"Sometimes there will be magic items given as loot.  You can consider them to be XP 'windfalls' if you want.  I'll try to be fair to everyone, but if we get to a certain point in the campaign and you feel like you've been shortchanged, we can make that up with additional XP or an extra item for you." 

 

This is the best way IMO. I would treat the point cost of all the items players receive as guidelines for the GM to us in deciding what to give out to whom and when. If your players can't deal with a little power disparity here and there from time to time /shrug.

[Chris Goodwin]

15 minutes ago, Lee said:

Can a character start the game with a magical sword? Yes and they would have to pay for it. What I was talking about, and inferred from the OP's initial post, was for magical items "found" or given out as a reward. If you find a magical item in the villain's lair, I don't think you should pay for it. If you start out with the item, I see it just as if you crafted one. Make sense? (I mean is it any clearer what I meant--it's probably still nonsensical, meaning I'm totally wrong)

 

I'm pretty sure I understand what you meant; I'm just trying to poke holes in your logic.     

 

If I paid 20 points to start the game with a magic sword, and Bob found a 20-point magic sword, how is that fair?  Is there any way I can somehow, eventually, get my points back while keeping my sword?  What if I find a magic sword, or other magic item, that also costs 20 points... can I give up my original sword to get those points back, while being allowed to keep the new item?  

 

What if the villain did pay points for it?  Actually, that started out as a rhetorical question... but what if?  What if paying points represents attunement a la D&D 5th edition.  Meaning, what if Bob walks out with a 20-point magic sword that's attuned to his enemy?  Certainly at some point the enemy might claim it back... but what if the enemy is using that as a way to spy on Bob?  

 

15 minutes ago, Lee said:

Yes, absolutely this is an issue. But, since the GM controls what items are found, they can control how evenly distributed they are. If in session one, the stuff is fighter-y, then in session two the GM should make the stuff mager-y and session three rouger-y. Or, make sure each character gets a little something of (nearly) equivalent value.

 

Exactly. So, if the "magic" equipment is functionally equivalent to "non-magic" equipment (my magic chainmail vs. non-magic plate example), you'd charge points for the magic set but not the non-magic set (being "mundane")? And, if they go to the next town an buy a set "as mundane as the previous set", would you charge XP for it? If not, they why charge for the "magic" set if they are functionally equivalent?

 

Presumably, the items for which points are charged are qualitatively better somehow than normal equipment.  If it's barely better than a normal sword, I'm not sure I'd charge points for it.  

 

15 minutes ago, Lee said:

I agree, character points are pretty good at roughly comparing power levels and I would include the "cost" of any magic items (or items not paid for by points) in the total when comparing. That's what I was getting at when I mentioned using the XP the character's had gained as a guide to determine how powerful an item to give a character. I just don't think it is fair (or even makes any sense) that a character be charged XP for an item they "find".

 

Time for me to explain my logic.     I certainly wouldn't say "Bob, you found a magic sword, suddenly you owe me 20 points. Muahahaha!"  If Bob finds a magic sword, even uses it, but chooses not to pay the points for it... his ability to keep it is based entirely on the GM's discretion.  He's got it until, at least, the end of the session.  

 

If a character wants to claim an item, and keep it around, in much the same way as a D&D character would claim an item, then yes, I'd charge points for it.  If they don't want to take a 20 point hit for it, or don't have the 20 points right now, that's fair.  And we'd discuss it.  If they have the XP and just don't want to spend it on the sword... they don't have to, but then we're back in GM discretion territory.  If they were saving the XP for something else, but really want the sword... again, we'd discuss it.  Perhaps Bob can make a "down payment" of a few points (25%?  5 points on a 20-point sword, how does that sound?), and pay 1-2 points per XP award until it's paid off.  Maybe Bob doesn't learn the full functionality of the sword right away; maybe there are powers he has to learn about, and maybe he doesn't get access to those powers until he's paid for them.  (This is actually not uncommon in source material!)

 

To me, paying the points for it represents something similar to D&D 5e's attunement.  You're claiming the item somehow.  Adding it to your character sheet in whatever way that assures that it will stay around.  Gaining full access to its powers.  

[Duke Bushido]

For those new to the board, here is my most unpopular opinion ever:

 

 

2 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

permanently losing points... 

 

 

I have absolutely _no problem_ with this.

 

Yep.   I made the mistake of saying that out loud during early debates on "Independent" way back when, and it proved to be the most evil possible thing a person could utter in this particular fandom.  

 

Worse yet:  We've been doing it since the 80s.

 

And unimaginably impossible follow-up:

 

It's never _been_ a problem.  Not once.  It doesn't happen a _lot_, or even particularly _often_, but it does happen.   I've even let players burn an EP or two to make outrageous changes to die rolls at critical moments.  Again, not often, but sometimes it's just there.

 

And it has never been a problem.  Not once.

 

Believe it or not, this actually started under my first Champions GM with that old "Powers for Champions!" article in Dungeon Magazine-- the one with Bouncing, etc?  The "Extra Life" power: buy it and permanently lose 2 EP, but here's the great thing it does....."

 

The thing, I think, was timing.  When we were first exposed to the idea, there was no internet.  There was no "let me bounce this off a couple hundred complete strangers I will never actually sit down and play a game with due to geographic distances, etc.  What they have to say is crucial to how we play our game."   There was just our little group of six, and Hell-- the tradeoff seemed _more_ than fair:  get out of Dead free card?  Lose two EP?  Two EP that I'll likely replace in the next session?  Sign me up!  Maybe it's because none of us were studying to be accountants or software gurus or what-have-you: we didn't _need_ a balance sheet that perfectly tracked where all our earnings went.  And seriously, it wasn't like that four-point pea shooter was going to break us anyway.  We could drop four more EP on another one, if we wanted, or we could drop two hundred Federated on one in the next port we stopped at.  Either way.

 

Maybe it's because we _never_ spent EP the minute we earned it.  We were all (and still are) "terrible" about banking it until we're ready to do something with it.

 

So it's "meta."  So what?   As LL said in the current "which edition" thread, it fits a sweet spot for us personally.

 

 

I didn't mean to ramble on so much about it-- particularly knowing how unpopular it is.  But every now and again, I just feel it needs to be said.   Same book; different book; only one book:  doesn't matter.  None of us are playing the exact same game, and likely we never will.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Generally I think you should get magic items as loot and not pay points for them, and balance them with complications and the understanding that what you got for free can be freely taken away as well (or used up).  However, there is room for someone building their particular wand with character points.

 

As for permanently losing points, I don't think that should EVER happen (in any game), but you can temporarily lose the access to those points (lose the item) until its replaced with something else or a new version of the item.  OK you lose your Wand of Doom, for 1 adventure but at the end you get a Wand of Even More Doom, or a keep of your own, or something else.

[Hugh Neilson]

To me, the question is what points mean in the game.  You buy equipment  with cash?  Then it is mundane gear.  You lose your sword over the side of the ship as you sail out of port?  Then you have no sword.  You spend six months at sea, never landing in a port where you can buy a sword, your opponents have no swords, and your friends will not give you a sword?  Then you have no sword.

 

You spent points to buy an OAF Sword?  Then that sword probably falls on the deck, not over the side when disarmed.  If it does fall overboard, there is likely a sword in the hold somewhere, or we shortly afterwards encounter a merchant ship and you can replace your sword, or perhaps you character knows how to forge a sword, or even possesses the mystical ability to create a sword from thin air (but it takes hours - you didn't buy it OIF!).

 

Paying points makes it part of the character.

 

The GM can certainly say "you cannot pay points for a sword - they are mundane gear, subject to being lost".  The GM can set plenty of campaign rules.

 

As to Independent, it can work if the group is happy with it, or not.  Note that when Bob the Fighter finds a 20 point Independent sword, he does not have to pay 20 points to keep it - whoever originally paid that 20 points is down 20 points.  Bob pays 20 points for an Independent magic sword?  Great - he has pretty much guaranteed he will lose that sword eventually as that is what Independent means.

 

Bob pays 100 character points for Independent magic armor, shield, bow and arrow and a sword?  OK, we likely now have a problem.  Bob is way more powerful than the rest of the PCs (with all those -2 limitations).  Then he loses the items - that is what Independent means, remember?  Now he is a weak sister comic relief character to the rest of the group.  So Bob retires and Fred the Fighter, a new character with a big pile of Independent magic items shows up.  Or Bob's player whines until he gets his items back, possibly whining for the rest of the campaign.

 

Note that D&D has also been through this.  1e/2e, you get what you find - suck it up, buttercup.  But if Bob gets all the cool gear, the other players get ticked off that their characters never get anything useful.  Balance it out, GM.  Assuming the GM balances it out, both D&D and Hero with lots of Independent found items plays fine.

 

3e, you buy your magic gear (with cash, but you have wealth by level guidelines to tell you about where the PCs should be).  OK, now we have a pool of points to buy gear (like resource points, recalling that D&D tells players what each pool of points must be spent on - you don't get to take +2 Intelligence by giving back skill points, or to hit bonuses, or wealth - your CP for stats is separate from your CP for skils, your CP for saving throws, spells, combat maneuvers, animal buddies, etc. etc. etc.).  Our Hero characters can similarly have access to X points worth of gear.  Lose it and you can replace it, or get something new, but the overall points in gear stays the same.

 

You can always mix the two.

 

Which way is "right"?  Which way is the group enjoying - that is the ultimate definition of "right" in a game.  Even if the group enjoys a chaotic, pvp game of trying to get more power over the other PCs with no attempt to keep PC power levels balanced, or they account for every character ability in CP religiously.

[Shoug]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Note that D&D has also been through this.  1e/2e, you get what you find - suck it up, buttercup.  But if Bob gets all the cool gear, the other players get ticked off that their characters never get anything useful.  Balance it out, GM.  Assuming the GM balances it out, both D&D and Hero with lots of Independent found items plays fine

I honestly think this is the best way to do this, assuming the GM is keeping it more or less strictly balanced (everybody remains within 10 points). In fact, I think I'll take it a step further. Not only can you essentially find CP on the ground by finding a magical item, any magical item may be upgraded with XP at your leisure. You can choose for the magic item to become part of your character, like Excalibur or Mjolnir, and thereby earn the right to discover new abilities (much like a new use for one's powers in comic books) or just improve its current abilities.

[Chris Goodwin]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

For those new to the board, here is my most unpopular opinion ever:

 

(permanently losing points)

 

 

I have absolutely _no problem_ with this.

 

 

[C-Note]

Don't even worry about the point cost for found magic items (except for purposes of Dispel/Suppress).  If the fighter found a +1 OCV broadsword in the monster's horde, fantastic!  What can be found can also be lost/destroyed.

 

If the player wants to start out with a magic item, then that is simply a power with a Focus limitation.   Pay points, and use the Focus rules.  Not using the "Real Weapon" limitation avoids the issues faced by "mundane" items.

[Lee]

13 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

If I paid 20 points to start the game with a magic sword, and Bob found a 20-point magic sword, how is that fair?

It isn't fair, which is why I wouldn't allow you to start the game with a magic sword (or anything else). Then every magic item obtained would either be found/purchased for currency (no CP cost) or created (CP cost). It's part of the GM's job (IMO) to try and be as fair as they can while telling a good story. Now, if you had stated you wanted a magic sword and it sounded really cool, I'd try to construct an adventure (or side adventure) where you could "find" one. That way, you and Bob are on a level playing field.

 

BTW, if the sword Bob found was a finely crafted but mundane sword that was "worth" 20 points, how would that be any more fair if he didn't spend CP for it. To be fair, you'd have to charge Bob CP for the mundane sword and open the can of worms of when to charge and when not to as well as the case that Bob purchased the same sword from a blacksmith paying both currency and CP. Then it's not fair going the other way.

 

14 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Is there any way I can somehow, eventually, get my points back while keeping my sword?  What if I find a magic sword, or other magic item, that also costs 20 points... can I give up my original sword to get those points back, while being allowed to keep the new item? 

You would eventually get your points back through EXP. No, you wouldn't be able to get those 20 points back by giving up the sword and use them to get the new item.You wouldn't need to because the new item that is found doesn't cost CP.

 

You've illustrated quite well why I wouldn't let the character start the game with a magic sword anyway. As GM, I'd help you find it along the way (if it was interesting for the story).

 

14 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

What if the villain did pay points for it?  Actually, that started out as a rhetorical question... but what if?  What if paying points represents attunement a la D&D 5th edition.  Meaning, what if Bob walks out with a 20-point magic sword that's attuned to his enemy?  Certainly at some point the enemy might claim it back... but what if the enemy is using that as a way to spy on Bob? 

I'm not familiar with D&D 5th edition (I've not played D&D since 1st edition) so I can't speak to attunement. But, if it is a powerful item that Bob got from the villain, I'd fully expect the villain to try and claim it back. If it had the ability to let the villain spy on Bob, so be it. It sounds like a great story arc for the campaign. I honestly don't see a problem, but, again I'm not familiar with D&D 5e attunement.

 

14 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Presumably, the items for which points are charged are qualitatively better somehow than normal equipment.  If it's barely better than a normal sword, I'm not sure I'd charge points for it. 

Cool! We have some common ground! 😉 I just find it arbitrary to charge sometimes and not charge other times. I suppose one might devise a way to make it non-arbitrary, like if it is more than X AP or RP you have to pay CP but if below you don't. But that would still be arbitrary since the "X" is decided upon by GM fiat. It also limits the ability of the GM to have "finely crafted", "masterpiece" or "heirloom" items that, while mundane, are significantly better than other mundane items. They'd need to charge CP for them and you're back to charging CP for some mundane items and not others. Although in this case it's not as arbitrary. I'm not sure I'd like that as either a player or GM. 

 

14 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Time for me to explain my logic.     I certainly wouldn't say "Bob, you found a magic sword, suddenly you owe me 20 points. Muahahaha!"  If Bob finds a magic sword, even uses it, but chooses not to pay the points for it... his ability to keep it is based entirely on the GM's discretion.  He's got it until, at least, the end of the session.  

 

If a character wants to claim an item, and keep it around, in much the same way as a D&D character would claim an item, then yes, I'd charge points for it.  If they don't want to take a 20 point hit for it, or don't have the 20 points right now, that's fair.  And we'd discuss it.  If they have the XP and just don't want to spend it on the sword... they don't have to, but then we're back in GM discretion territory.  If they were saving the XP for something else, but really want the sword... again, we'd discuss it.  Perhaps Bob can make a "down payment" of a few points (25%?  5 points on a 20-point sword, how does that sound?), and pay 1-2 points per XP award until it's paid off.  Maybe Bob doesn't learn the full functionality of the sword right away; maybe there are powers he has to learn about, and maybe he doesn't get access to those powers until he's paid for them.  (This is actually not uncommon in source material!)

Ah, that wasn't clear, at least to me, from your original post. This seems much more fair to me than it originally did, especially the part about letting them "finance" their purchase of the sword over time. Just don't charge interest!  I also like the idea of Bob being able to use more abilities of the sword as he spends points to "pay it off". I could get behind that idea.

 

Lee

[ScottishFox]

With the Fantasy HERO campaigns I've been running we haven't incorporated any type of costs associated with loot / treasure / magic items.

 

If your poverty stricken skirmisher happens upon a masterwork breastplate then he gets an armor upgrade.

 

If your power hungry fire witch finds the Staff of the Four Elements (variable special effect on X active points of powers) then they have a shiny new stick.

 

What I've maintained separately for those campaigns is a Combat Effectiveness spreadsheet and you have to stay within the campaign caps regardless of your capabilities come by way of gear, levels, powers/spells or stats.

We bump the cap 5 pts intermittently through the course of a campaign.  If the gear your found while adventuring moved you above the cap then when the cap is raised you have less room to work with and possibly none at all.

 

In the last campaign our Witcher character found the equivalent of +4 Plate.  He was reluctant to use it at first due to the dex/end/movement penalties, but rapidly grew to enjoy the nigh-invulnerability of 12rPD/12rED.

But that armor also bumped him 5-6 points on the combat effectiveness spreadsheet so the next time the characters were allowed to upgrade their combat capabilities he had only a single point to work with.

 

This can have the effect of making magic items a strange alloy of currency and character points - but it worked well for us and didn't remove the "treasure" pillar of classic D&D style games.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm evidently out of reactions for the day    There are at least a couple of posts I have to hit.  

[Doc Democracy]

I am with Hugh.  I treat character points as a measure of narrative control.  The GM has narrative control of the world and players 'buy' the ability to exert a narrative influence on the world. 

 

If the character has paid points for access to magic then he has access which may be temporarily removed by the GM but must be restored at some point.  Arthur carries Excalibur, he paid points for it and whenever the GM decides to take it away or break it,  then it will, reasonably quickly be found, restored or re-forged. 

 

George carries a+3 longsword he stripped off the body of an opponent.  When the GM finds his possession of that inconvenient, he can have it removed, de-powered, broken with no expectation of it being returned to him.

 

This is all independent of treating players equally, you want everyone to share in loot and be competent in the game but George probably spent those 20 points on STR or some kind of life support or skill levels.  He retains the narrative control of those things, just like Arthur retains Excalibur.

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Oh!  Another thing, if the GM had a cool narrative that meant the end of Excalibur then he would have to square that with Arthur's player and explain what point equivalent narrative control Arthur might gain subsequently.

 

Doc

[mallet]

Another option might be to allow/require "attuned" to magic items at a cost of the item's RP /5 or /3. Just like in the Turakian Age where magic users get a /3 reduction in the cost of spells.

 

Use the "base/vehicle" rule that for every 1 XP spent gets you 5 pts worth. Or make it like a Follower. 

 

These spent XP points return to the character when/if the item is lost, destroyed or it's charges run out. 

 

I've read some homebrew magic systems where characters buy a Magic Talent that allows them to cast spells, maybe there is a Magic Item Talent a character buys (in 3 point increments), with each 3 points spent in it allowing for 15rp worth of Magic items to be used. So if a character spends 9 points on the talent, they can have up to 45 RP of magic items they can be attuned to at once, whether that is one 45 point item, or 3 15pt items, or 9 5pt items. 

 

If the Gm knows the game will be using lots of magic items (like a D&D campaign) then the first 3 points of the talent can be required for every character at char gen, or just given to the characters for free at char gen. Then the players can slowly buy it up with Xp as the game progresses if that is how they want to take the character. 

 

The players still have to find or buy the magic items (they don't start with them or anything) but when they do, if they have the talent and the points, they can use the item to full effect. 

[Chris Goodwin]

People in this thread make good points.  I'm leaning quite a bit more neutrally toward the idea.  I'd probably still count any magic items toward the character's total when I'm working out total capabilities -- in that sense they're part of the character's points.  But I don't necessarily see the need to charge points, as in requiring the character to allocate saved XP to an item.  I'd make it a GM-decided option at the beginning of the campaign, for sure.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I'd probably still count any magic items toward the character's total when I'm working out total capabilities -- in that sense they're part of the character's points.

 

That's definitely an area Hero handles well that other fantasy games, for example, do not.  In D&D you get all those swords and wands and such but there's no overall concept of power level or what its doing to balance in game play.  Its important as a GM to have a good handle on just how powerful your characters are getting beyond a gut feeling, and checking out what people have in terms of loot and items can go a long ways toward quantifying that.

[Lee]

1 hour ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I'd probably still count any magic items toward the character's total when I'm working out total capabilities -- in that sense they're part of the character's points.  But I don't necessarily see the need to charge points, as in requiring the character to allocate saved XP to an item.  I'd make it a GM-decided option at the beginning of the campaign, for sure. 

Then you and I see eye-to-eye, now.  Thanks for our discussion. It allowed me to see a different perspective and forced me to (more) carefully think things through, not unlike Bohr's discussions with Einstein. That's always a good thing!

 

Lee