Illusions that can inflict harm

[Tywyll]

So one of the character's I'm converting from a different game has an illusion spell. It's extremely flexible, allowing them to summon anything 1-hex sized, be it an inanimate object or a warrior, patch of darkness, fire, etc.

 

How can I convert something like that? I don't want to make it a VPP for a single spell so I am happy to limit it a bit. 

 

The main sticking point is that in the other game, if foes don't disbelieve the illusion, it fights like whatever it appears to be (until he stops paying fatigue or it is killed or disbelieved). That feels like a summon with an automatic dispelling condition maybe? But the entire spell feels like it maybe should be a multipower with specific illusion effects I guess?

 

Also, how would you build a power that filled a hex with fire and damaged anyone who entered it?

 

[Chris Goodwin]

Normally in Hero, Images (light/sound) can't do damage while Mental Illusions (all in the mind, but usually against one target) can.  However, you could write up an "illusionary monster" and then make the spell Summon Illusionary Monster.  You can add Variable Effect to summon other kinds of creatures.  

 

To fill a hex with fire, use a Blast or Killing Attack with Area of Effect and Constant or Continuous and either Uncontrolled (to feed END into it at the start and have it run off of that) or Time Limit (to have it expire on its own). 

[Tywyll]

24 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Normally in Hero, Images (light/sound) can't do damage while Mental Illusions (all in the mind, but usually against one target) can.  However, you could write up an "illusionary monster" and then make the spell Summon Illusionary Monster.  You can add Variable Effect to summon other kinds of creatures.  

 

To fill a hex with fire, use a Blast or Killing Attack with Area of Effect and Constant or Continuous and either Uncontrolled (to feed END into it at the start and have it run off of that) or Time Limit (to have it expire on its own). 

 

Would you build a single spell that could do both of those things (and more) as a multipower?

 

I think it has to be a summons, since the creature can 'die' in normal combat and can be seen by everyone.

 

What limitation would you give something that can be instantly unsummoned with a successful Ego roll? -1?

 

Edit: And now I realize Summon is an Instant power, but I want it to only stick around for as long as she maintains it with END. How would I do that?

[Chris Goodwin]

 

4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

What limitation would you give something that can be instantly unsummoned with a successful Ego roll? -1?

 

I'd say -1/2 at least.  Maybe more if Ego scores tend to be higher.

 

4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Would you build a single spell that could do both of those things (and more) as a multipower?

 

I'd say so, unless you can convince your GM to let you summon a hex of fire, shadow, etc.  I might allow it myself in fact, just to make it easier to build.

 

4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Edit: And now I realize Summon is an Instant power, but I want it to only stick around for as long as she maintains it with END. How would I do that?

 

Summon is an "instant" Power in that it works and has its effect instantly, but the summoned being stays around until it's dismissed, destroyed, leaves under its own power, etc.  Edit:  Ah, I missed the point of this part.  There's a "Costs END to maintain" Limitation, either -1/4 or -1/2, I don't remember.

[Shoug]

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Normally in Hero, Images (light/sound) can't do damage while Mental Illusions (all in the mind, but usually against one target) can.  However, you could write up an "illusionary monster" and then make the spell Summon Illusionary Monster.  You can add Variable Effect to summon other kinds of creatures.  

 

To fill a hex with fire, use a Blast or Killing Attack with Area of Effect and Constant or Continuous and either Uncontrolled (to feed END into it at the start and have it run off of that) or Time Limit (to have it expire on its own). 

I love to see Hero Effortlessly miming TFT. The power of this system is astounding.

[Chris Goodwin]

31 minutes ago, Shoug said:

I love to see Hero Effortlessly miming TFT. The power of this system is astounding.

 

The original Hero Games guys played a lot of TFT when they were designing Champions.  There's a definite family resemblance there.

[steriaca]

TFT? The Fantasy Trip? The predecessor of GURPS? Wow. I always thought HERO was the first true point level game, but you just reminded me that TFT was. Never played it myself, but I did play GURPS a few times.

[BNakagawa]

5 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

The original Hero Games guys played a lot of TFT when they were designing Champions.  There's a definite family resemblance there.

hex based mapping, 3d6 roll under, Armor subtracting from damage, one stat governing accuracy and another governing damage point build chargen, a la carte skill purchases, stat based skill systems - the design DNA fingerprint is unmistakable. 

 

Back to the illusion, does disbelieving it dispel the illusion completely or just for the one who disbelieves it? I forget.

[dmjalund]

Also, if I disbelieve the illusion, ican I still see it (but not affected by it)?

[Doc Democracy]

12 hours ago, Tywyll said:

So one of the character's I'm converting from a different game has an illusion spell. It's extremely flexible, allowing them to summon anything 1-hex sized, be it an inanimate object or a warrior, patch of darkness, fire, etc.

 

Well, you could simply purchase Images with a linked killing attack.  The images are there to create the look and feel of the illusion, the killing attack to provide damage.  I would give the killing attack variable SFX. If you wanted the killing attack to take damage you could buy it continuous and with physical manifestation.  The image could react to the damage, monster dying, fire going out etc.

 

Might be a bit expensive, especially if you buy the images with the ability to affect sight, touch and hearing groups. But it would be a powerful spell.

 

Doc

[Tywyll]

4 hours ago, BNakagawa said:

hex based mapping, 3d6 roll under, Armor subtracting from damage, one stat governing accuracy and another governing damage point build chargen, a la carte skill purchases, stat based skill systems - the design DNA fingerprint is unmistakable. 

 

Back to the illusion, does disbelieving it dispel the illusion completely or just for the one who disbelieves it? I forget.

 

Anyone disbelieving it cancels it.

[Tywyll]

How does it work if you make an attack lingering, like fire burning in a hex, and someone walks into the hex? Do they rake damage automatically? Does the creator have to roll to hit?

 

What if it's natural fire? Like in a volcano and has nothing to do with a character? 

[Ninja-Bear]

Not sure how legal but......how about just use mental images with the limitation visible? I think this would cut down on rules.

[Duke Bushido]

6 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Not sure how legal but......how about just use mental images with the limitation visible? I think this would cut down on rules.

 

 

Modeling from "Based on CON" and other such options:

 

EGO power based on INT.  AoE to affect everyone looking at it.

 

Link the KA has Doc suggested  (though honestly, I personally would go with "regular" Images linked to a KA).

 

The illusion-- whichever build you prefer-- would have an additional Limitation representing the idea that when one person ceases to be fooled, all viewers cease to be fooled, or it is simply dispelled (small "d").  If using Images with a Linked KA, then the KA takes the same limitation.

 

Personally, I prefer the light-based illusion / KA combo.

[Tywyll]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Modeling from "Based on CON" and other such options:

 

EGO power based on INT.  AoE to affect everyone looking at it.

 

Link the KA has Doc suggested  (though honestly, I personally would go with "regular" Images linked to a KA).

 

The illusion-- whichever build you prefer-- would have an additional Limitation representing the idea that when one person ceases to be fooled, all viewers cease to be fooled, or it is simply dispelled (small "d").  If using Images with a Linked KA, then the KA takes the same limitation.

 

Personally, I prefer the light-based illusion / KA combo.

What would the illusion's stats be when someone fought it? In TFT the illusion can be fought and killed in normal combat (and in fact that is usually how one gets rid of an illusion).

[Tywyll]

Thinking about mental illusions, it would be super expensive. It would need to have a high dice total to insure Body damage, be fully Indirect and lingering and End only to cast, to represent that the caster creates it and stops bothering with it. 

 

I'm thinking a Summons probably feels more like what it does in TFT, with a -1 that it can be dispelled by anyone who makes an ego roll and spends a half phase trying to disbelieve. In some ways that makes it weaker (avg ego roll is higher than average Int roll in TFT), but that's the closest I can come up with.

 

Now,how do I do a hex that is on fire and hurts people who enter it?

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

In TFT the illusion can be fought and killed in normal combat (and in fact that is usually how one gets rid of an illusion).

 

If this is the case, then I would have to second Chris's "Summon" build, including a Limitation that involved a mechanism by which the illusion can be "disbelieved."

 

 

 

 

[Lucius]

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

 

Now,how do I do a hex that is on fire and hurts people who enter it?

Wall of Fire:  (Total: 45 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Blast 4d6, Area Of Effect (1m Radius; +1/4), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (45 Active Points); Costs END To Maintain (Half END Cost; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4) (Real Cost: 7)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that's not hard.

[Tywyll]

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

Wall of Fire:  (Total: 45 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Blast 4d6, Area Of Effect (1m Radius; +1/4), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (45 Active Points); Costs END To Maintain (Half END Cost; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4) (Real Cost: 7)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that's not hard.

Doesn't uncontrolled require you spend a bunch of end up front to keep it running? I'd rather use lingering (I think) to avoid that.

 

Also, what are the mechanics of a character entering the hex? Does the creating player roll an attack? Do we use common sense and just say the character gets hit?

[Lucius]

4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Doesn't uncontrolled require you spend a bunch of end up front to keep it running? I'd rather use lingering (I think) to avoid that.

 

Also, what are the mechanics of a character entering the hex? Does the creating player roll an attack? Do we use common sense and just say the character gets hit?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "use lingering."

 

And the hex of fire does damage to anyone on entering, and each time the caster's phase comes around.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests reading the rulebook and asks what rulebook you have?

[Duke Bushido]

54 minutes ago, Lucius said:

The palindromedary suggests reading the rulebook and asks what rulebook you have?

 

 

Lucius makes an excellent point; it would be quite helpful to know what edition you are using, and which books in particular from that edition.

 

 

Without knowing for certain, I would offer something like this (Keep in mind I don't know 6e, and barely know 5e, so I'm going to be a little vague here; fill in the gaps as needed):

 

 

Build the monster.  Build it as you would any old monster: give it DEF, BODY, SPD-- build an actual monster; not an illusion.

 

Whatever Disadvantages you build into the monster, be sure to include something on the lines of "cannot do damage to anyone who as Disbelieved / realized it is an Illusion.

 

 

See: that's the thing that a lot of folks-- new players in particular-- have a hard time getting their heads wrapped around: you don't have to _buy_ every aspect of the character / creature in question.  Disadvantages / Complications can be used to _define_ a thing without actually adding to that thing.  The "SFX separate from mechanics" concept at the core of the game allow you to simply say "this monster is an illusion.  However, it will work just like a monster so long as no one realizes it is just an illusion."  You can define that further with the idea that as soon as an observer realizes the beastie is just an illusion, it has no more power to harm that observer.  Go even further with it, if you want, and add a limitation to each attack: damage disappears when illusion is disbelieved."  Keep in mind that it's not _mandatory_; it's just an idea that might really mess with a PC a bit.    

 

Once you have a cost for your monster, build Summon: X-point monster with whatever loyalty modifiers, etc that you want it to have.  Add a Limitation to your Summon: disappears when all observers are aware it's an illusion / when any observer realizes it's an illusion.  Select the mechanic that you find best represents Disbelieve:  INT roll?  PER roll?  EGO roll?  Something else?  Whatever.

 

Have fun with it.

 

As for creating a single hex of fire, you've got options there, too, now that (if I remember 6e correctly) to do this directly through Change Environment.  Traditionally, I would do it with RKA, Area of Effect: one Hex.  Remember that AoE does _not_ remove range by default (unless it does now).  If your range is, say, thirty hexes, then you can place that fire at any point up to thirty hexes away from you.

 

Presumably, you are building this as a Spell of some sort.  Thus, you can build it as Continuous _and_ incorporate an END Reserve / Battery / Pool / Whatever the Hell your edition calls it into the spell, and the fire will remain until the END runs out.

 

Now I don't know (but I assume) that there's an issue with Continuous that has been fixed by now: older editions had it set so that every time the "attacker's" phase (in this case, the spell caster's phase) came around, anyone standing in the effective area of the Continuous power would suffer the effects / take damage.  For what it's worth, I found this to be monumentally stupid:  In the case of your spell caster tossing a burning bush out onto the playing field, anyone was perfectly safe to stand right in the thing, so long as they weren't there when your phase came around.  If your edition does this, I would recommend house ruling that straight into something sensible.  If your edition has already fixed this, then run with that.  

 

 

 

[Tywyll]

I'm using 5th Edition. Pretty much every book. 

 

Lingering is a modifier in Fantasy Hero that is similar to Uncontrolled but doesn't (if I recall correctly) require you spend a ton of END up front to keep the thing going, it just takes care of it (like a charge with a time limit). Since I'm trying to recreate a spell that costs Fatigue/End to cast, but not to maintain, and lasts for 2 minutes, Lingering seems like a better way to handle it than uncontrolled. 

10 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

And the hex of fire does damage to anyone on entering, and each time the caster's phase comes around.

 

 

Where can I find the rules/advantage/modifier for this element? The 'takes damage upon entering part'? Or is that a common sense ruling?

[Doc Democracy]

4 hours ago, Tywyll said:

I'm using 5th Edition. Pretty much every book. 

 

Lingering is a modifier in Fantasy Hero that is similar to Uncontrolled but doesn't (if I recall correctly) require you spend a ton of END up front to keep the thing going, it just takes care of it (like a charge with a time limit). Since I'm trying to recreate a spell that costs Fatigue/End to cast, but not to maintain, and lasts for 2 minutes, Lingering seems like a better way to handle it than uncontrolled.

 

You say that you want it to cost END to cast but you do not want to "load it up" with END to keep an uncontrolled spell going.

 

If you purchase the spell such that it costs 1 END per phase then your caster can decide how long they want it to keep going by putting the requisite amount of END into the spell.  As such you get a spell that costs more END to cast the longer you want it to endure but you do not have to pay END in on a phase by phase basis....

 

I went to check the rules (I looked at 6th instead of 5th but I think that the rule is the same) to make sure I knew what I was talking about...but I cam across the following text:

 

Quote

However, any power bought with this Advantage must have a reasonably common and obvious set of circumstances that will turn it off or negate it.

 

For your illusion, you could indicate that the reasonably common and obvious set of circumstances would be to defeat the illusion (or to disbelieve it).  I think that I would provide a level to the player that I was willing to allow as an opponent and give bonuses to the disbelief roll for things that would be outrageously powerful and have no obvious reason to be present in the current location.  This would allow the illusion to deliver damage while presenting a wide variety of different attack forms.

 

So you could buy Killing Attack, constant, uncontrolled, variable special effects, area effect (one hex).  My handwave here would have to be that the illusion of a knight attacking you would have to potentially effect a different hex each round rather than the same hex that the illusion of fire would require....

 

Doc

 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

I don't know if there's an official rule or not, but either way, it _is_ common sense.  

 

Just like "fire doesn't burn slower / hurt less because the guy who lit it moved slowly. 

 

If a magnifying lense started a fire, what phase does the fire use to inflict damage? 

 

If 6 SPD 2 character hold actions so as to give, as a group, one attack per phase, and they use fireballs, you'd take damage every phase the fire hit you. 

 

But if all twelve of them cast and equal amount of dice worth of "Hell's Inferno" on a hex of ground, you could stand there unhurt ten out of twelve phases. 

 

Taking all that in resulted in my house rule that states such things do damage per _segment_, and not per Phase. 

[PhilFleischmann]

You could just build it as a Summon, and give it a limitation "Summoned creature disappears if the target "disbelieves" it."  And then define what disbelieving entails,