What happened to HERO?

[Solitude]

1 hour ago, Ternaugh said:

 

We use 5er as the base rules for my FH game, but much of the material is from 4e FH/FHC/FHCII and the 3rd Ed Pirates! book. I've grabbed a few things from 6e where I've seen fit. The campaign is old enough that some of the materials and characters were written using WordPerfect and Quattro Pro for DOS, some were set up in Creation Workshop (which works fine in Windows 10, by the way), and some were written in various incarnations of Hero Designer. 

 

A friend from high school whom I taught the game to whilst home on leave compiled Pirates and Mythic Egypt. 

Did all those Rolemaster/Hero System dual system rulebooks ever come out in .pdf? I saw a copy of Mythic Greece on ebay not long ago.

[Chris Goodwin]

Just now, Solitude said:

 

A friend from high school whom I taught the game to whilst home on leave compiled Pirates and Mythic Egypt. 

Did all those Rolemaster/Hero System dual system rulebooks ever come out in .pdf? I saw a copy of Mythic Greece on ebay not long ago.

 

Yes, they're all out in PDF now.  I think very nearly the entire 1st-4th edition library is. 

[DreadDomain]

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I love everything Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Editions let me do. I love having options. I love the flexibility of matching game mechanics and play style to concept, whatever that concept is. I would love a less verbose version of those rules, but I don't want to go back to pared-down or abridged rules.

Absolutely! Rulewise O much much prefer 4, 5, 5r and 6 to anything that came before it...

 

3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

1E, 2E, 3E, DI, JI, FH 1st Ed, were "complete" because they contained all the rules to run the kind of genre game the writers wanted you to run, the way they wanted you to run it. You wanted to vary that, you had to figure it out for yourself. If I want that kind of game experience, there are dozens of RPGs that can give it to me. And IMHO the people who already play and like those RPGs aren't going to flock to Hero if it's made more like what they already play.

..but the toolkit approach does not have to exclude the complete game approach. Once you have given me the toolkit (you could never take 6E1 and 6E2 away from me), be bold. Use the toolkit and give me games.

Give me a Fantasy Hero where the secondary characteristics are figured

Reattach CVs. Drop characteristics you dont need. Change the way skills are calculated from characteristics. Change the skill list and give me new talents. Don't give me a power system, give me equipment, vehicles and magic! Stop writing everything as +1/2 and -3/4. Give me the writer's vision!

You know what? If I dont like something I will use the toolkit and change it.

[Spence]

2 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

 

..but the toolkit approach does not have to exclude the complete game approach.

--snip--

You know what? If I dont like something I will use the toolkit and change it.

 

Well, actually you are on the Hero boards and that thought is sacrilege

 

Years ago I and others made the same arguments we were subjected to the BBS version of “shouted down”.    

My version was to create the equivalent of a D&D starter with prebuilt everything for a small standard fantasy game through the 3rd “level”. 

All the lists shortened to just the basic delving needs.  Not details for builds in the “lists”.  Just what it does and the final point cost.  For example:

Spell: Fire Bolt, does 4d6 Normal Flame damage. Cost ## char points.

Weapon: Broadsword, 1d6+1.  Cost ## gold.

 

Just enough information to make 3-5 basic heroes that can go into a small dungeon and kill some goblins. 

And then “level up” a little.

The entire point to to simplify the initial character build by pre-packaging as much as possible which allows new FH players to exercise the game system before having to learn the build system.

An appendix in the “Fantasy Hero” starter would list everything that had been provided, weapons, spells, etc. and their point builds for the players after they have run through a few games and want to “customize”.  Being able to compare a build they have actually played in a game to the rulebook is very helpful.  Especially if they are self-teaching.

Take a humdrum “standard” or “typical” party of PC’s

1st level Human Fighter

1st level Elf Ranger

1st level Human Wizard

1st level Halfling Thief

1st level Human Cleric

There is practically no difference for these basic builds in D&D, Pathfinder, 13th Age, etc.  A thief is a thief.  A fighter is a fighter.  And so on.

The world they are placed into are also virtually identical, just bearing different sounding made up names/labels.  I have personally mixed and matched adventures between the systems. 

 

The point is not to present a unique and exciting all-encompassing world. 

The point to quickly and easily present a few stereotypical PC’s and run them through a small number of learning/practice games.

They can then use that experience to give them a perspective on the full rules. 

 

The difference between Hero and many other RPG’s is that most popular RPG rules give the players prepackaged options but do not actually release the underlying structure that was used to build the options.  They give you the rules to play and build PC’s, but not the rules to make the rules.

 

Hero plops the underlining rules needed to build everything and then expects everyone to simply understand with no frame of reference.   With each edition of Hero, any intuitive understanding of the game concepts was drowned in the unbelievably verbose walls of text. 

 

At least in my opinion. 

[Chris Goodwin]

13 minutes ago, Spence said:

The entire point to to simplify the initial character build by pre-packaging as much as possible which allows new FH players to exercise the game system before having to learn the build system.

 

The point is, after all, to play the game.  

 

Quoted for agreement.

[Duke Bushido]

6 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 would love a less verbose version of those rules, but I don't want to go back to pared-down or abridged rules.

 

I am pretty sure you own it.

 

Though I guess the official one could be Considered abridged (what powers are missing, anyway?  I haven't cared enough to crawl through the books again.)

 

 

6 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

1E, 2E, 3E, DI, JI, FH 1st Ed, were "complete" because they contained all the rules to run the kind of genre game the writers wanted you to run, the way they wanted you to run it.

 

I am going to rephrase that:

 

You were playing a very specific game. 

 

I also want to look at it from another angle:

.you were playing a _complete_ game.  You weren't playing just a set of mechanics.  "playing the game the way they want you to play it" is no different from "playing the campaign I have built." 

 

It's also something that you _cannot do_ with the most recent itterations of the syatem: they are raw mechanics, presented with oodles of optional mechanics.   But there is no game there. 

 

I roll three dice and if I roll under a modified 11, I hit my target!  Oh, cool!  Here's an option that let's me roll over some some kind of number and I will know who I hit that way! 

 

Why am I hitting them?  Are they bad guys?  Am I a bad guy?  Is there some reason other method of dealing with them other than thwacking him with stone hammer?  Can I have a stone hammer?  How did I get a stone hammer, anyway? 

 

Wait a minute: you said fantasy!  Why aren't there any dwarves?  Can I be a spell jammer?  For now?  What do you mean for now?!    What's a good strength for my dwarf substitute?  No, really: what does a typical one-of-us look like, stay-wise?  What do you mean that's up to me?  Okay, well can you tell me if that's a good CV?  Well of course I bought them both up high!  That's combat value!  I'm a warrior; I should be good at all types of combat, right?  Suppose I get into an e-fight?  Be pretty bad for a warrior to suck at that, right? 

 

 

The game.  The game itself.   There isn't one. We've got setting books.  We've got geren books.  We got mechanics.  But we don't have an actual game: we don't have "this is how it fits together if you want to make adventures from the 30; here's how it fits together if you want to make a WWII tank combat miniatures game.  Here's how it fits together - what is and isn't permissible in a simply cowboys game. 

 

MHI for 6e and Lucha Libre HERO for 5e and I _think_ PS238?  Those are actual games.  No generic "martial arts," but _soecific_ martial arts, hie to use them, how to. Uy them _for this game_.  Honestly, the biggest reason LL is my favorite 5e book is t even the luchas (and luchas are always cool!) but because it was the first and only 5e product to step up to Hero's promise that this is a toolkit from which you can build a game.  It built a setting, characters, benchmarks, chose what rules were going to be used and which ones were t, and it ran with it. 

 

One can certainly argue the that playing LL HERO is nithi g more that "playing Champions, but being forced to do it Darren's way," but you'd be wrong.  Like everything else from HERO, there is the familiar "see the big book to change what you don't like" reference.  But Lucha and MHI do something no other 5 or 6 product does:  it _makes_ some decisions, and some assumptions, and puts its foot down that certain things are going to be done a certain way. 

 

This doesn't make it heavy handed; the makes it the o ly complete game to come out of 5e.  The "system" gives you a hundred-fifty switches and options and tells you to throw them yourself and make your own coherent game without bothering to give so much as inviolable benchmarks for normal. Humans. 

 

Not the most beginner-friendly scenario I can imagine, mostly because it is not- even when combined with a genre book, a complete game.  Certainly us antique hero fans can make something of it, but we are using how many decades of context to get it done? 

 

No: I have to toss myself into the corner for daring to expect there to be more than one complete game to come out of your ten-book "toolkit." 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

 

[Nolgroth]

50 minutes ago, Spence said:

My version was to create the equivalent of a D&D starter with prebuilt everything

 

I think you are putting the horse before the cart. Hero needs a pre-planned product line and the intent/means to publish it. Then there can be a Quick Start product. Anything less is no better than the individual setting books we've received in the past. In fact, it'd  be just another postmortem twitch.

 

Sorry if that came out harsh. We've just seen too many half-assed measures from Hero already. A solid development plan is the only way that Hero can leverage any realistic return to full-time publication.

[Duke Bushido]

On December 28, 2019 at 1:01 AM, Nolgroth said:

A solid development plan is the only way that Hero can leverage any realistic return to full-time publication.

 

While this is absolutely true, I respectfully disagree with this part:

 

On December 28, 2019 at 1:01 AM, Nolgroth said:

 

I think you are putting the horse before the cart.

 

 

Hero needs a game.  A complete playable-out-of-the-box game that people can pick up, learn in- well, preferably a couple of hours, but no more than an evening or two-  and have up and running for the weekend. 

 

Thats the point Chris has made before about 3e: those complete games were not just genre books.  Benchmarks and an already built magic system,  some idea about the world around you, a Theme a tone, and pre-built equipment to buy or at least to model your custom stuff after. 

 

Hero doesn't have anything like that.  The last one they had was MHI, which _vanished_.  One day people are bad mouthing the author of the source material while there are 660 copies in the store, the next minute they are _gone_. (I bought myself one to support my favorite game system and my views on "one thin book".  I liked it.  I decided to order my brother one (he's a fan of the source material; I am not), and dude: they were _gone_.) 

 

You can pick up MHI and be up and running in a couple of evenings.  You can't do that with Basic.   Sure: you can if you already know the system and a setting and campaign limits and style, but nothing has to offer will give you more than a place to play and some mechanics.  There is no complete game. 

 

A prebuilt D&D conversion is not my idea of a good time, but I am willing to bet I could read it and play a game from it, if I wanted, with no prior understanding of D&D or Champions. 

 

Look here:

 

 

 

Yet another "how to build a power" thread.  Fine: they're fun, right? 

 

Having a few known-up-front suppositions about the game itself would make it a lot less confusing.  I mean, Scott reached all the way back to campaign material published for an actual complete game (4e champions) to get an answer. 

 

Now if this was for a spell in Fantasy Hero, a pre built magic system might have pointed right at the answer; a pre-built spell list might have made the question superfluous. 

 

Hero bills itself as a toolkit from which any game can be built.  What hero needs is to sit down and prove it. 

[Ternaugh]

9 hours ago, Spence said:

All the lists shortened to just the basic delving needs.  Not details for builds in the “lists”.  Just what it does and the final point cost.  For example:

Spell: Fire Bolt, does 4d6 Normal Flame damage. Cost ## char points.

Weapon: Broadsword, 1d6+1.  Cost ## gold.

 

I recently had a new player submit a character for my FH game that had been output from Hero Designer, and I was very confused reading several paragraphs that turned out to be a description of a heavy bow, sword, and shield in his equipment list. It made the first combat that he was in difficult as well, as he didn't have the simple, one-line reference for his weapons on his character sheet.

 

On a related topic, I came to the realization when I was doing a personal Traveller conversion a number of years ago that the only equipment that required Hero stats were the ones that would be directly used in personal combat (weapons and protective gear, mainly). Everything else could be a "black box". I didn't have to build starships in Hero, I could just use the standard ones from a Traveller supplement, and plug in the rules as needed*. I didn't need to build the communicators in Hero, as what really mattered with them was already defined in a simple description (range, mass, duration, price) in an equipment list.

 

 

*In this case, the ship combat rules from High Guard.

[Nolgroth]

7 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Hero needs a game

 

Absolutely. I am not advocating for yet another setting, sourcebook or compilation of the rules. Without a plan, however, then any "Starter" set is just another product created in a vacuum. Without additional support material already built and/or scheduled to be published, then it is doomed to fail. That's what I'm getting at. Suppose Hero publishes the Fantasy Hero Starter Kit with some basic rules, a couple of pre-made characters, a high quality poster map for the introductory adventure "Lost Mines of Herodelver." Now what? There has to be more. Not some vague idea or notion. There has to be something tangible to keep people coming back. 

[urbwar]

On 10/31/2019 at 9:19 PM, steriaca said:

Man, the catch 22 of Hero. We NEED great comic book style FULL COLOR ARTWORK to help sell the game to guys who pick up graphic novels. But there is no way to actually AFFORD a great artist to do them.

 

I think the main issue is that many superhero rpgs tend to use the same group of artists for the most part, who charge accordingly (and deservedly so). Yet there are some artists out there as good as them, who are less expensive, but few bother to actually go looking for them.  I've posted art I've commissioned in one of the art threads, and I can tell you that for the price of one piece by Storn Cook, I can get 3 or 4 pieces from an artist in the Philippines who I feel is an underrated talent.

 

There is also plenty of superhero stock art available now; Storn has some, and Jacob Blackmon has a lot as well. Ade Smith is another. So I disagree that you can't afford color art. You can if you're smart and look for newer, hungry artists who you can afford. It helps you get color art for your book, and it helps them build their profiles, so they can eventually earn more themselves, just like artists before them did.

[zslane]

Yep, the Hero System could really use a complete game product. However, a single product, boxed or not, is simply not sufficient. It is a good start, but if that’s all it is, it will just die in obscurity like everything else that isn’t called Champions.

 

In order to achieve sustained growth and marketplace relevance, this “complete game” needs to be a full product line: a complete campaign setting, a custom bestiary (if appropriate for the chosen genre), adventure modules, and expansion supplements. This product line should all be built the way Hugh describes, whereby all of the pre-built options/items/abilities are described in terms of their most essential game mechanics, but minus all the interior numbers, and only showing Real and Active Costs. There should be an abundance of pre-built stuff, custom and specific to the setting, so that players don’t feel the need to build their own stuff just to start playing. I think MHI is a good template for this.

 

As for which version of the system this should all be built on top of, well, for marketing purposes I would call it 7e, but in terms of what that it is under the hood, I’d make it basically 4e with a few things from 5e. There’s no advantage to using 3e (or earlier) as the underlying system, IMO. And as a toolkit, it would serve as the basis for any and all “complete game” product lines. This would minimize the need to relearn or recalibrate one’s grasp of—and feel for—the Hero System as one moves from game to game.

[Solitude]

25 minutes ago, urbwar said:

 

I think the main issue is that many superhero rpgs tend to use the same group of artists for the most part, who charge accordingly (and deservedly so). Yet there are some artists out there as good as them, who are less expensive, but few bother to actually go looking for them.  I've posted art I've commissioned in one of the art threads, and I can tell you that for the price of one piece by Storn Cook, I can get 3 or 4 pieces from an artist in the Philippines who I feel is an underrated talent.

 

There is also plenty of superhero stock art available now; Storn has some, and Jacob Blackmon has a lot as well. Ade Smith is another. So I disagree that you can't afford color art. You can if you're smart and look for newer, hungry artists who you can afford. It helps you get color art for your book, and it helps them build their profiles, so they can eventually earn more themselves, just like artists before them did.

 

A fair number of the artists used for Champions or Villains And Vigilantes and so forth honed their skills selling to game companies in the eighties went on to work for DC and Marvel.  Of course they charge a lot now.

 

Deviant Art is full of talented people though,  or one could see what the artists who popular Superhero Fiction writers charge. I like whomever Marion G. Harmon uses. Or shell out for a piece by people writing popular superhero Webcomics like Dave Barrack who draws Grrl Power.

[urbwar]

27 minutes ago, Solitude said:

 

A fair number of the artists used for Champions or Villains And Vigilantes and so forth honed their skills selling to game companies in the eighties went on to work for DC and Marvel.  Of course they charge a lot now.

 

Of course. It makes sense to use them if you can afford to. I can't, so I looked elsewhere. I have 3 - 4 artists I used on a regular basis, and they've produced great work for me. 

 

29 minutes ago, Solitude said:

Deviant Art is full of talented people though,  or one could see what the artists who popular Superhero Fiction writers charge. I like whomever Marion G. Harmon uses. Or shell out for a piece by people writing popular superhero Webcomics like Dave Barrack who draws Grrl Power.

 

While I didn't find them all via DA, all of the artists I work with have pages on DA. There is a lot of untapped talent willing to do the work if given a chance. I try and give them that chance, and I promote them while sharing the art they've done for me. I know a few have gotten some work from my promoting them, and it helps build my relationships with them. It's a win - win for both of us.

[DreadDomain]

On 12/28/2019 at 10:36 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Hero doesn't have anything like that.  The last one they had was MHI, which _vanished_.  One day people are bad mouthing the author of the source material while there are 660 copies in the store, the next minute they are _gone_. (I bought myself one to support my favorite game system and my views on "one thin book".  I liked it.  I decided to order my brother one (he's a fan of the source material; I am not), and dude: they were _gone_.) 

Really? I never heard this conspiracy theory. I find that hard to believe HERO would forego the potential revenue off 660 copies. MHI wax very close to be that "complete game were the toolkit is hidden" (there were still equipment as powers and too many +1/2, -3/4).

Personally, I did not know the series nor the author when it came out so I bought the first book of the series, read it and did not find anything really interresting about it. Bought the game anyway to support HERO.

[DreadDomain]

On 12/28/2019 at 10:36 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Yet another "how to build a power" thread.  Fine: they're fun, right? 

Yes, for many people on the board, it is fun. There is nothing wrong with that.

[DreadDomain]

On 12/28/2019 at 3:05 PM, Spence said:

Well, actually you are on the Hero boards and that thought is sacrilege

I'll go back in my corner then 😉

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Yes, for many people on the board, it is fun. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

 

For all of us, in one way or another.  I certainly wasn't trying to disparage the exercise.  I enjoy it myself.  

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Really? I never heard this conspiracy theory. I find that hard to believe HERO would forego the potential revenue off 660 copies. MHI wax very close to be that "complete game were the toolkit is hidden" (there were still equipment as powers and too many +1/2, -3/4).

Personally, I did not know the series nor the author when it came out so I bought the first book of the series, read it and did not find anything really interresting about it. Bought the game anyway to support HERO.

 

 

No conspiracy theory.

 

I ordered myself a book.  They showed 660 in stock when I ordered mine.  A couple days later, I mentioned that it existed to my brother John, who actually likes the book series they're based on.  ( I like  a lot of Curea's stuff, but decidedly not MHI).  John was rather excited about reading it, so I loaned him mine.  Three?  Four?-- days later I thought "I'll buy him one.  He'll appreciate it, and I'm throwing money at Hero Games!"  Win / win.

 

Gone.  All 660.   Keep in mind this was a couple of _years_ after they had been published.  (since HERO isn't in game stores, I didn't even know it existed until I came back to the boards.) If it matters, these were perfect bound; I know hardbacks tend to go quickly.  Not a conspiracy theory: a coincidence, and concerns about a fire or losing the ability to pay the mortgage on a warehouse.

 

 

 

 

[DreadDomain]

8 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

No conspiracy theory.

 

I ordered myself a book.  They showed 660 in stock when I ordered mine.  A couple days later, I mentioned that it existed to my brother John, who actually likes the book series they're based on.  ( I like  a lot of Curea's stuff, but decidedly not MHI).  John was rather excited about reading it, so I loaned him mine.  Three?  Four?-- days later I thought "I'll buy him one.  He'll appreciate it, and I'm throwing money at Hero Games!"  Win / win.

 

Gone.  All 660.   Keep in mind this was a couple of _years_ after they had been published.  (since HERO isn't in game stores, I didn't even know it existed until I came back to the boards.) If it matters, these were perfect bound; I know hardbacks tend to go quickly.  Not a conspiracy theory: a coincidence, and concerns about a fire or losing the ability to pay the mortgage on a warehouse.

 

 

 

 

I see. I was intrigued because you also mentionned people badmouthing Larry C. as a preamble of the disappearance of the books. I wondered what was the link and what was the fuss about him all about.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, DreadDomain said:

I see. I was intrigued because you also mentionned people badmouthing Larry C. as a preamble of the disappearance of the books. I wondered what was the link and what was the fuss about him all about.

 

 

I am terrible when posting from a phone: the interface is tedious, the spell-check speaks a language that I don't (Not kidding:  you have no idea how many of my words get changed into Korean names or Indian words.  Yes; I have it set for English.  It does it anyway.  It's maddening!), and for some reason, it loves reading the "n" as a space......

 

So I tend to be more terse when posting from a phone.  I had thought it was more clear:

 

The only reason I even knew the game existed was because I stumbled back into the boards after a few years of absence, I stumbled across a thread on the badmouthing of Curea (apparently he likes guns.  Gee.  Who'da thought that?  : ), and evidently someone got a couple of unfavorable soundbites from him about something political-- don't remember; don't care: I tend to believe that most people take politics too far, considering no one gets out of here alive-- and mentioned the timing of the problem; the affect it had on sales of the game, etc---

 

That's the _only_ reason I even knew it existed.  No adds anywhere in paper; no adds online that I ever encountered; not even an e-mail, and mine is registered with the board.  Absolutely nothing but someone discussing how internet politics (which I really do believe are a radically different beast than actual politics: in the real world, discussion and compromise _can_ be found) was affecting the sale of the MHI game Hero had just tried selling at a Con.  (And I live something like "several states away" from a Con, so that's not going to reach me, either.....

 

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Wasn’t Narosia a complete game/rule book?

[Duke Bushido]

13 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Wasn’t Narosia a complete game/rule book?

 

 

I don't know.  I _thought_ so, but I've never been able to track down a HERO version to read.  Then from what I have read about the other version, there seem to be cards involved somehow?  Not one of my favorite mechanics, and definitely not HERO.  However, it could be a part of the other system, so I haven't tried to judge it by that.  If I can find a HERO copy to read, and found it to be a complete game, I'd be delighted.  Moreso if I could have bought it from HERO as opposed to a used copy from some private seller, which is what I'm down to searching for now.

[Duke Bushido]

On December 27, 2019 at 8:32 PM, Solitude said:

 

A friend from high school whom I taught the game to whilst home on leave compiled Pirates and Mythic Egypt. 

Did all those Rolemaster/Hero System dual system rulebooks ever come out in .pdf? I saw a copy of Mythic Greece on ebay not long ago.

 

 

I picked up a couple of the PDFs way back when they were available from the then-owners of the Rolemaster /Iron Crown brand.  The current owner doesn't offer them as PDFs, I'm afraid.  On the plus side, for whatever reason, he does still offer a PDF of "At Rapier's Point," which is a fun read if you want to put a little more swash in your buckle.  However, if was never dual-statted for HERO.  I don't really know why he doesn't offer them as PDFs, unless the "Suitable with Fantasy HERO" stamp on the front caused some sort of copyright issues?  I couldn't tell you.  I know that there are bootlegs out there, but I don't pirate.  Seriously.  Maybe because I'm old, or maybe because I agree with the concept of intellectual property, and in the age of "of course it's okay because I want it," I know it sounds extra strange, but I don't pirate.  I did the ebay thing and bought extras of the books I didn't have PDF for and sliced them up to make my own.

 

I still keep an eye out for stuff from the old Rolemaster line, though. If I see them available again, I'll do my best to remember you're interested in them.  

 

 

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Wasn’t Narosia a complete game/rule book?

 

Yes.   On steroids.

 

What I mean is that it is a complete 480 page mega world as most Hero 6th style products. 

In character creation you have to decide on:

one of eight Races

one of eight Cultures

one of four Archetypes

one of ten Vocations

Following the hero species imperative, they worked hard on making sure there was no intuitive connection by name/title to any "standard" fantasy setting.   So in order have any chance of building a PC that you may like, you have to digest all of them.  A GM will need to STUDY. 

 

Magic has two sections.

The Grimoire that has spells split into five Arcana (types/disciplines/schools).  They are listed by name.  There is nothing resembling a list to break them down by purpose (offense/defense/utility) or common usage (apprentice/journeyman/master or level equivalent). 

The Codex is 17 pages of what I am assuming are priestly/clerical equivalent.

 

This means a person considering playing a mage will need to STUDY and carry an understanding of the spell list before they can hope to make any intelligent decisions.

 

All in all, the character creation portion is 213 pages that must be read and understood by the players. 

 

There is a prebuilt party of six PC's, Talisker's Company (17 pages for 6 PC's) which is good. 

 

It adds a section with rules for Divine Influence (Divine Intervention, Grace, Malice, etc.) which was pretty cool.

 

Along with the standard Hero rules sections needed to build stuff.

 

It also has a nine page adventure called "The Ruins of Baradahm". 

 

All in all it is a great, fully realized setting.

A fully realized 480 page setting

A humongous 480 page setting with 213 pages of CharGen.

 

A Fantasy Hero setting that successfully avoided resembling any "traditional" RPG setting or one based on a book/film/video game and set a fantastic mark for being original. 

Which means it is far steep an entry curve for the modern mostly casual gamer.  There is no way that you could buy the book Wednesday and run the adventure on Saturday with new (never heard of Hero) players. 

 

I have a copy and enjoyed reading the parts I was able to.  But I wasn't able to finish it and have a reasonable handle on things, enough to run it, that week. 

 

With my limited time and the way the local players went from interested to meh... to "man, lets just play D&D" when they found out there were "cultures" on top of races and classes (vocations). 

 

They simply did not have the free time to invest.

 

It is like the 5th Ed D&D Midguard Setting.  Huge GM's World Guide and a separate Players Guide.  I know of five locals who bought it.  No one runs it.

 

Narosia was too huge and too deliberately not like traditional settings to be easily entered by anyone. 

 

A pared down entry version may have had a chance.

One or two Races

One of Culture

Four Archetypes

Four basic Vocations (only one magical type)

A short "1st level" spell list for that one magical type.

Shortened skill list, equipment list, talent list......basically shortened everything allowing new players to play an intro with PC's that closely resemble their D&D/PF/13thA analogs. 

 

In the end, if you put out a massive in-depth new setting, either there has to be a spectacular reason or incentive to get people to read 400+ pages of text to learn a completely new world/game or their needs to be a short easy intro that will spark the players to want to read 400+ pages of text to learn a completely new world/game.