UOO vs Focus

[iamlibertarian]

Just looking to make sure I understand this correctly:

UOO (for example UBO) literally grants the power to another character to use as s/he will (barring limitation preventing some types of uses).

Focus (if universal) literally puts the power into the item. So anyone can use it. (I know, I know, I am not trying to hand out weapons to everyone to permanently keep, or to use every gaming session, lol.) So it doesn't have to have UBO?

 

So if, for example, my character has a Ring of Flying (Universal) for himself. But my character is occupied in the middle of a scene and needs another character to fly back to the base and grab something, he can give the ring to another character to make that journey?

Or say, a Potion of Healing. My character has 2 of them. Two characters go down at the same time. My character rummages in her Bag of Holding and pulls both out, uses one on one character and hands the 2nd one to another to use on the other downed character. Still no UBO needed if the potions are Universal?

Thanks!
DC

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Correct. 

 

The exact line where "Here, use my ring!" goes from "minor perk of Focus" to "Needs UBO" is vague and in GMrulingland.  I've heard rulings ranging from "Once is fine, twice is UBO" to "Once every couple sessions is fine, more than that is UBO".  It won't really hurt balance either way, but if you think it might be important, sit down with your group and talk it out. 

[iamlibertarian]

Now all I have to do is find a group, lol. Until then, character creation is still a blast

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

That is, alas, the hardest part. 

[iamlibertarian]

Oh, that begs another question though: 

If my character gets knocked out, say in the case of the Ring of Flying, does the flight end and the ring wearer crashes and burns?

If so, is there something which can be paid for/built into the power, like Continuing Charges or Uncontrolled or the like to handle that?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

2 minutes ago, iamlibertarian said:

Oh, that begs another question though: 

If my character gets knocked out, say in the case of the Ring of Flying, does the flight end and the ring wearer crashes and burns?

If so, is there something which can be paid for/built into the power, like Continuing Charges or Uncontrolled or the like to handle that?

This depends on edition. 

In 5e, a UBO power turns off if the grantor is KO'd or loses LOS.  This can be avoided by making the UOO Persistent. 

In 6e, a UBO power doesn't care what happens to the grantor after it's been granted. 

[iamlibertarian]

True, but if it is a Universal Focus, I thought you said UBO wasn't needed (at least if it is a one-shot use of the focus)?

[Doc Democracy]

If you take someone else's focus and you use a power through that focus that requires END, then it is the character who is wearing the ring/using the power that pays the END.

 

IBO in 6th edition can be set up to work the same way.

 

 

Doc

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

30 minutes ago, iamlibertarian said:

True, but if it is a Universal Focus, I thought you said UBO wasn't needed (at least if it is a one-shot use of the focus)?

Ah, yeah.  In that case it works exactly as though they were the one who'd bought that focus.  You can get KO'd, mind controlled, killed, transformed into a frog, have a radiation accident, whatever.  The ring Just Works. 

[Hugh Neilson]

By the same token, you can normally shut off a UBO power - say, if Shirley ShapeShifter was impersonating your teammate.  But Shirley flies away with your ring...

[Chris Goodwin]

Usually, a Focus is an item, while a UBO is... I'll give an example.  You might have a Spell of the Flight of Birds, in which during the casting you can touch up to eight people, including yourself, and anyone you touched can fly for up to an hour.  You'd stat that out as a UBO with the appropriate sets of modifiers dialed in.  

 

I think the difference is really, who decides?  If you fall unconscious and someone can grab it and use it, then it's a Focus.  If you have to take some kind of action in order for someone to use it, it's (probably) UOO in some way.  

 

Here's an interesting bit of trivia, though.  Usable On Others with Differing Modifiers is almost entirely the original Create effect from Fantasy Hero 1e, that was used to create magic items.  And FH 5e and 6e have both suggested using that as one way to create magic items.  For me, conceptually, UBO/UOO with Differing Modifers can be sort of... the Power to create the Power, I guess.  I know that doesn't clarify it much.  (Create a power with the Focus Limitation, then create a UOO With Differing Modifiers Power that takes a "blank" of the Focus, Extra Time, RSR: Enchantment (or similar), whatever additional Limitations are required... then you activate the UOO, and suddenly you have a magic item.)

[Christopher R Taylor]

Focus is kind of limited in that you're actually giving away your item which in theory you have a limited number of.  Usable by Others is limited only by time and endurance.

[steriaca]

I love the 4ed limitation "Independent" (-2). It really has no purpose in a Superhero game, but it simulates powerful magical doodads which not only be taken away, WILL be taken away. In case your playing Fantasy Hero with a bunch of D&D guys.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

By the same token, you can normally shut off a UBO power - say, if Shirley ShapeShifter was impersonating your teammate.  But Shirley flies away with your ring...

It's utterly unintuitive, but this is incorrect. 

In 5e, the grantor cannot voluntarily reclaim the power except by breaking LOS or switching Framework slots.  If Shirley has some way to prevent you from breaking LOS (say, using that Flight power to keep pace with you) or if you bought the UOO as Persistent, you're not getting it back soon!  I don't see any grantee consciousness clauses either. 

In 6e, if Shirley controls the granted power you're outta luck until Shirley gives it back or is KO'd.  Unless of course you paid the +1/4 surcharge to be able to recall the power. 

[iamlibertarian]

So just for clarification and summary:

 

UBO truly grants the power to another.
 

Focus (Universal) allows another to use your powered item, with all the attending advantages (being able to hand it out in Rare circumstances if needed for example)  and disadvantages (can be stolen, lost, broken, etc.) of doing it that way.

Neither causes a said power to end if the grantor dies, goes unconscious, loses LOS.

[iamlibertarian]

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Here's an interesting bit of trivia, though.  Usable On Others with Differing Modifiers is almost entirely the original Create effect from Fantasy Hero 1e, that was used to create magic items.  And FH 5e and 6e have both suggested using that as one way to create magic items.  For me, conceptually, UBO/UOO with Differing Modifers can be sort of... the Power to create the Power, I guess.  I know that doesn't clarify it much.  (Create a power with the Focus Limitation, then create a UOO With Differing Modifiers Power that takes a "blank" of the Focus, Extra Time, RSR: Enchantment (or similar), whatever additional Limitations are required... then you activate the UOO, and suddenly you have a magic item.)

I am assuming that if this were built as, say, a magic item for example (focus) which then could be given to another, then at least in a Supers game, that receiving character would have to pay CP to keep it?

And, I am assuming that once cast/given away (with just UBO, not built as Simultaneous), it could not be re-created for a second character. Or can it be 'recast' a second time for another character?

[iamlibertarian]

Wait: Now I am confused. It has been said above that said Ring of Flight does not have the power broken when handed to someone else (1 time, not a gift) and they fly away (back to the base in the example given above), which breaks LOS. But 6E1 360 gives an example (Multiform, Summon) of the grantor leaving LOS and the power is broken.

So *does* a UBO or Focus lose its power if LOS is lost unless Uncontrolled or Continuing Charges is purchased as well?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

4 minutes ago, iamlibertarian said:

Wait: Now I am confused. It has been said above that said Ring of Flight does not have the power broken when handed to someone else (1 time, not a gift) and they fly away (back to the base in the example given above), which breaks LOS. But 6E1 360 gives an example (Multiform, Summon) of the grantor leaving LOS and the power is broken.

So *does* a UBO or Focus lose its power if LOS is lost unless Uncontrolled or Continuing Charges is purchased as well?

Quote

If a Summoned creature or an alternate form via Multiform grants a power via Usable By Others that requires LOS to be maintained, and then “goes away” (is Dispelled, changes form back to the base form or another form, or the like), then the power ceases to work because LOS has been broken.

Bolding mine.  Some UOO constructs require LOS.  6e UBO does not. 

[iamlibertarian]

10 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Bolding mine.  Some UOO constructs require LOS.  6e UBO does not. 

 

OMG. Complicated. But useful info. Is it in the original powers that the need for / lack of need for LOS is found? Or is it somewhere in the UOO description? I know I am asking a lot, but I really appreciate the help!

Nevermind. I just found what you were talking about on 6E1 356, Proximity Modifiers. The recipient can go anywhere including LOS unless a limitation is used.

So I am assuming the same applies to a Universal Focus.

[Christopher R Taylor]

A universal focus is self-contained.  Think of it like a gun.  Its disconnected from you, they can run off to the moon with it, and it still works, because the power is entirely in the focus.

[iamlibertarian]

6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

A universal focus is self-contained.  Think of it like a gun.  Its disconnected from you, they can run off to the moon with it, and it still works, because the power is entirely in the focus.

Thanks. That is what I figured, and makes sense to me. But(!) Just to be absolutely sure... Said Ring of Flight mentioned above, built on a focus... if my character is wearing it, (if it has Reduced END 0) and gets knocked out, he does not immediately lose the flight power crashing to the ground, instead continuing merrily on his flight (though it might be funny to see what he crashes Into, lol).

[Hugh Neilson]

To keep flying when KOd, the power would have to be Persistent, not just 0 END.  Without the character directing it, the flight normally ends.

[iamlibertarian]

1 minute ago, Hugh Neilson said:

To keep flying when KOd, the power would have to be Persistent, not just 0 END.  Without the character directing it, the flight normally ends.

Thank you for the info. But if you read above, some have said that if instead the Ring of Flight were handed to another character for a one-shot use (fly back to the base and get some equipment), others have said that if the character Giving away the ring were to lose consciousness, the power would not end. I am not saying you (or they) are wrong. I am just confused.

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

I am assuming that if this were built as, say, a magic item for example (focus) which then could be given to another, then at least in a Supers game, that receiving character would have to pay CP to keep it?

 

Absolutely - the same as grabbing the villain's BlasterGun

9 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

And, I am assuming that once cast/given away (with just UBO, not built as Simultaneous), it could not be re-created for a second character. Or can it be 'recast' a second time for another character?

 

UBO is purchased for a number of characters who can use the power at the same time.  As long as that grantee still has the power, if it can only be used by one recipient, the character cannot grant it to another.

 

Looking at the rules (a good idea, as I have already shown...:)), if the grantee is stunned or KOd, he loses the granted power.  I would extend this to sleeping, so Shirley cannot keep that power forever.

 

Now, if the character had a Focus Shirley took, we need to assess what happens based on special effects.  Does the PC Enchant a ring of flying?  Maybe it needs maintenance, so after a couple of days, he enchants a new one and the old one runs out of enchantment.  Maybe it is an artifact, one of a kind.  Then the player needs to get an opportunity to retrieve his focus - those CP should not be lost.  Worst case, we might agree he has lost the ring permanently, and let the player re-spend those points on something else (a radiation accident, essentially).  Maybe some day, he finds Shirley and gets his ring back - now he has to pay points if he wants to keep it.

[Hugh Neilson]

2 minutes ago, iamlibertarian said:

Thank you for the info. But if you read above, some have said that if instead the Ring of Flight were handed to another character for a one-shot use (fly back to the base and get some equipment), others have said that if the character Giving away the ring were to lose consciousness, the power would not end. I am not saying you (or they) are wrong. I am just confused.

 

UoO ends if the recipient is stunned or KOd.  When Wally Wizard casts his Fly spell on Shirley, and Shirley gets Stunned, she loses the Flight power.  Wally's status has no effect.  This is on 6e v2, p 355 (could differ for other editions).

 

A focus is not a UoO power - it is a focus.  As long as Shirley keeps that Universal Focus, she can fly.