Light Effects

[Hugh Neilson]

12 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I'm just going to leave this as a standing challenge to everyone's illumination models: 
How do you build the ability to see in darkness?  Can your system model that too? 

Not dim light, darkness.  As in "Gads, even my hyper-eyes are useless in this subterranean gloom!" "Haha, puny surface people's puny surface eyes are useless, unlike the superior eyes of the Cavelords of Chthonia!"

 

Since that "ordinary darkness" applies only to the Sight sense, not the entire Sight Group, any sense in the Sight Group (like Infrared Vision, Ultraviolet Vision or even Nightvision) will be able to see in the Change Environment model.

 

"Seeing in the dark" senses alter how the character interacts with his environment (specifically, how the character's ability to see interacts with darkness).  CE to make it dark, or make it light, Changes that Environment, with all ramifications this may have.  Just like Change Environment:  full of water does not cause someone who can breathe water to suffocate.

[redsash]

13 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I'm just going to leave this as a standing challenge to everyone's illumination models: 
How do you build the ability to see in darkness?  Can your system model that too? 

Not dim light, darkness.  As in "Gads, even my hyper-eyes are useless in this subterranean gloom!" "Haha, puny surface people's puny surface eyes are useless, unlike the superior eyes of the Cavelords of Chthonia!"

 

That's clearly a Darkness power, so you'd need Dispel or Suppress to "illuminate" it:

 

Gandalf struck a blue light from the end of his magic staff": Suppress 5d6, Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4), All Darkness Effects (+1/2); OAF (Staff; -1), Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4): 26 Active Points, 7 real Points

 

Note that, strictly speaking, this light effect would cut off in a bubble as soon as the Explosion drops the suppressed power level below the AP of your Cthonian Darkness power as bought. (Which I find totally faithful to both the comics and the X-files)

 

This power-based Darkness is explicitly different from what I'm calling "natural darkness" or more accurately, the absence of light. This would of course be mitigated by any light source, including any power SFX defined as such, like an Energy Blast or magic sword or a simple flashlight. 

 

So the Suppress-based flashlight would illuminate the cone of effect clearly and fade off as described, but would also mitigate the _complete_ darkness of Hugh's underground pit to a -4 PER penalty (a "very dark night") just by SFX, no matter where it was pointed.

 

...which presents a clear difference between power-generated Darkness and natural (GM-decreed) low- or no-light conditions, and how they behave vs powers and natural light sources. Again, a score for genre appropriateness 🙂

[dmjalund]

wouldn;t it be cheaper to have supress 1d6 (after all, natural darkness has no cost) ans use increased area?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

11 hours ago, dsatow said:

I would just use spatial awareness and base it off of sight.

I'm not sure what you mean by "base it off of sight".  Do you mean put it into the Sight Group, or do you mean to construct a duplicate "sight" power that's not in the Sight Group and so is unaffected by lighting? 

Both have obvious problems though.  The former doesn't work without also integrating Hugh's solution, the latter has massive side effects since it renders the character immune to all sight-obstructions such as Flash and not-dark Darkness. 

 

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Since that "ordinary darkness" applies only to the Sight sense, not the entire Sight Group, any sense in the Sight Group (like Infrared Vision, Ultraviolet Vision or even Nightvision) will be able to see in the Change Environment model.

 

"Seeing in the dark" senses alter how the character interacts with his environment (specifically, how the character's ability to see interacts with darkness).  CE to make it dark, or make it light, Changes that Environment, with all ramifications this may have.  Just like Change Environment:  full of water does not cause someone who can breathe water to suffocate.

I have absolutely no objections to this solution.  Excellent work. 

 

38 minutes ago, redsash said:

That's clearly a Darkness power, so you'd need Dispel or Suppress to "illuminate" it:

 

Gandalf struck a blue light from the end of his magic staff": Suppress 5d6, Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4), All Darkness Effects (+1/2); OAF (Staff; -1), Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4): 26 Active Points, 7 real Points

 

Note that, strictly speaking, this light effect would cut off in a bubble as soon as the Explosion drops the suppressed power level below the AP of your Cthonian Darkness power as bought. (Which I find totally faithful to both the comics and the X-files)

 

This power-based Darkness is explicitly different from what I'm calling "natural darkness" or more accurately, the absence of light. This would of course be mitigated by any light source, including any power SFX defined as such, like an Energy Blast or magic sword or a simple flashlight. 

 

So the Suppress-based flashlight would illuminate the cone of effect clearly and fade off as described, but would also mitigate the _complete_ darkness of Hugh's underground pit to a -4 PER penalty (a "very dark night") just by SFX, no matter where it was pointed.

 

...which presents a clear difference between power-generated Darkness and natural (GM-decreed) low- or no-light conditions, and how they behave vs powers and natural light sources. Again, a score for genre appropriateness 🙂

I am very confused here.  How does Suppressing the darkness leave our bold surface-world hero unable to see while the dread Cavelords of Chthonia can see perfectly?  Am I missing something obvious? 

Because it seems like your solution is for a completely different problem. 

[redsash]

3 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I am very confused here.  How does Suppressing the darkness leave our bold surface-world hero unable to see while the dread Cavelords of Chthonia can see perfectly?  Am I missing something obvious? 

Because it seems like your solution is for a completely different problem. 

 

You were asking for illumination models in the original quote.

 

Your Cthonian Darkness is a power: the only choice in the rules is to use suppress to illuminate it.

 

If you want to see personally, buy a perception power that is not covered by the Darkness. or personal immunity if the Cavelords are generating it themselves somehow.

[redsash]

27 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

wouldn;t it be cheaper to have supress 1d6 (after all, natural darkness has no cost) ans use increased area?

 

Earlier in the thread we explored how Nightvision costs 5 real or 8 Active Points to counter low light conditions, so we should at least aim for that.

 

If we buy natural darkness as Change Environment, it would cost 12 AP.

 

So 4d6+1 Dispel would negate it without a roll (using the +0 Standard Effect modifier).

 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

Back at a computer now and can respond a little more effectively...  

 

14 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

I feel I should mention that I may not have quite as much of a problem with Images Only to Create Light as others here do.  I don't think it's the best solution, but it does kind of work, mostly.  Yes, I'd prefer CE, or something like it.  The problem with Images is that it effectively creates a spotlight, unlike a regular lamp or fire, whatever is in the light is illuminated, and it has a "hard" edge, beyond which nothing is effectively illuminated..  The reduced visibility of things within the light is only based on how far away the viewer is, not how far away the viewed thing is from the light source.

 

I'm generally in agreement with Phil here.  

 

I thought it might be useful to imagine or examine some lighting scenarios: 

• A lone actor on a dark stage, illuminated by spotlights from above
• A single candle in a room at night
• A football field during a night game, illuminated by stadium lights

In the first, the lights are placed such that they illuminate the subject, to at least +4 worth of cancellation of penalties.  

 

In the second, we might have +2 worth, in the immediate vicinity of the candle.  

 

In the third, we might have +3 to +4 worth of illumination to cancel out the penalties, with AoE for the entire field.  

 

In all of these cases, we have a varying amount of light, with either no ceiling/room surfaces to reflect the light, or placement and/or intensity such that illumination is limited to the subject.  

 

Compare all of the above to the typical room in the typical apartment or house.  You flip a switch, the room is lit; you can more or less see everything in the room, and the walls, ceiling, floor, and other objects in the room are all lit.  Anyone in the room has no difficulty seeing, reading, identifying others, and so on.  

 

Whatever method is used to provide light, I suggest that it generally "acts like light".  Tautological, maybe, but we've got Powers that are building blocks, and we're trying to build something that "acts like light".  To that end, I suggest the following: 

• Single target, assuming human sized, no AoE -- illuminates the target only.  More or less the first case, above. 
• Area of Effect, but not big enough to fill the area:  illuminates everything inside the area.  Anyone outside the area can see in, anyone inside the area can't see out.  (Assume whatever the illumination bonus is acts as an additional penalty to see anything outside of the area; thus, +4 worth of illumination in a small area at night means anyone inside has -8 to see outside of it.)
• Area of Effect, equal to or larger than the area (assuming a room):  illuminates the entire room and everything inside of it.  

Common sense, dramatic sense, GM permission, etc., might allow the bending or stretching of some of this.  For instance, an illumination power built as +4 worth, in a 2m radius, would illuminate everything in that radius at +4; if that is instead aimed "out into the night" it may reduce the effective illumination by an amount equal to standard Range Modifier, while increasing the area illuminated.  So it would be +4 at 0-8 meters (2m radius), +2 at 9-16 meters (4m radius), +0 at 17-32 meters (8m radius), -2 at 33-64 meters (16m radius -- the limit), -4 at 65-128 meters, etc.  Basically, anything out past 64 meters is not lit at all.  

 

If a character has, for instance, Light Powers, meaning some connected suite of powers that makes them light-based, I wouldn't require them to use a separate power to light something up.  I'm not sure I'd even require a Power Skill roll to power stunt one up.  

 

For a character with a dedicated "create light" ability, as the rules currently stand I might just have them use Images, only for light.  For something like the D&D light spell, which allows you to illuminate an object, I'd either use the Images with Differing Modifiers, or just go with a simple Major Transform: object to object that emits light.  

[redsash]

To clarify, we're dealing with several different game effects here:

 

(Natural) no light conditions (i.e. a sealed unlit room or underground pit)

Normal sight perception entirely disallowed. Nightvision does not work. Mitigated by *any* light source to:

 

(Natural) low-light conditions

Normal sight perception allowed with up to -4 penalties (for a "very dark night").

Nightvision (at 8AP, 5 Real) entirely compensates.

 

Character-generated Change Environment: low light conditions

12AP to require a PER roll at -4 to see for a single target (can buy AoE or "deeper darkness" effects at -1 per 3AP).
Nightvision will still compensate for up to -4 (because the SFX match: 6e1 p177)

 

Character-generated Darkness vs Sight Perception (ie Cthonian Darkness)

Sight perception entirely disallowed at 5AP per 1" radius. 

Nightvision does not work. SFX-generated light effects do not work.

 

Also on 6e1 p 177: "A character who creates a Darkness field cannot automatically perceive through the field. To do so, he should buy an appropriate Enhanced Sense or apply the Advantage Personal Immunity to the Power."

 

So yeah, Cthonians would have to buy a special non-visual targeting sense. Someone suggested a limited Spatial Awareness, but Infrared Perception is cheaper and works, since it's not in the Sight group anymore (Black Panther FTW!) Cthonians could also buy the Darkness power (through their base?) with the "Personal Immunity" advantage. 

[redsash]

1 hour ago, Chris Goodwin said:

• A lone actor on a dark stage, illuminated by spotlights from above

 

Suppress darkness 4d6+1 Standard Effect: 13 (to automatically overcome 12AP of Change Environment. No power advantages are required to affect a single target)

 

(Good example: this is *really* hard to do any other way, but trivial with Suppress)

 

 

Quote

• A single candle in a room at night

 

Candle:  Suppress natural darkness 2d6, Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4); OAF Fragile (Candle; -1 1/4), Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Requires flame source to light (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate, -1/2), Side Effects (May start fires; -1/2), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 20 Minutes (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4) (7AP 1 Real)

 

Flickery light and shadows, but partially compensates for a couple of meters out. (Bad roll? Trim the wick and try again, maybe you'll get another +1.) Outside of the 4m radius you will still be able to see at -4 even if it's otherwise pitch black (because SFX: light counteracts the game effect of pitch blackness, and photons don't just stop 🙂

 

 

Quote

• A football field during a night game, illuminated by stadium lights

 

Suppress natural darkness (defined as CE: low-light conditions) 4d6+1 (standard effect 13), AoE

[Chris Goodwin]

 

17 minutes ago, redsash said:

Character-generated Darkness vs Sight Perception (ie Cthonian Darkness)

Sight perception entirely disallowed at 5AP per 1" radius. 

Nightvision does not work. SFX-generated light effects do not work.

 

My presumption is that we're talking about anything except the Darkness Power.  I'm not entirely certain it's relevant to the discussion, and as you mention perception is disallowed through it entirely.  Given this, I'd be pretty iffy on using Suppress Darkness (the Power) as a means for creating light, because one SFX for Darkness could in fact be a very brightly lit area!

 

I'm not at all sold on the idea of Suppressing natural darkness.  Flip it around to:  Suppress lack of natural light.  By the same token, I wouldn't allow Suppress lack of air supply to allow breathing in a vacuum, Suppress lack of natural gravity to put up a gravity field in space, Suppress lack of something to stand on to prevent falling, Suppress the nonexistence of a dragon here instead of Summoning a dragon...  This could certainly be a GM-specific way to do it, and if you want to do it in your games, I'm not going to tell you no, but I'd red-pencil that in my games for sure. 

[PhilFleischmann]

1 hour ago, Chris Goodwin said:

• Area of Effect, but not big enough to fill the area:  illuminates everything inside the area.  Anyone outside the area can see in, anyone inside the area can't see out.  (Assume whatever the illumination bonus is acts as an additional penalty to see anything outside of the area; thus, +4 worth of illumination in a small area at night means anyone inside has -8 to see outside of it.)

That really depends on the precise location of the light source.  If there's a light bulb directly in front of my face, than I won't be able to see anything behind it (or much of anything else) because it's shining directly into my eyes.  But if the lightbulb is next to me or above my head, I can see outside the area just fine, depending on the distance.  There would be some cancelling of the darkness penalty, even complete negation of it if the thing I'm looking at is close enough.

 

Unless the light effect is some comic-book-physics thing where there is no light source, and photons are just being spontaneously created in the air around me.  Then I would be well-illuminated, along with everything else in the area, but I wouldn't be able to see out, because the light would be shining in my eyes no matter which way I face.

[Chris Goodwin]

1 minute ago, PhilFleischmann said:

That really depends on the precise location of the light source.  If there's a light bulb directly in front of my face, than I won't be able to see anything behind it (or much of anything else) because it's shining directly into my eyes.  But if the lightbulb is next to me or above my head, I can see outside the area just fine, depending on the distance.  There would be some cancelling of the darkness penalty, even complete negation of it if the thing I'm looking at is close enough.

 

True enough, but I'm willing to chalk that up to...

 

1 hour ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Common sense, dramatic sense, GM permission, etc., might allow the bending or stretching of some of this.

 

Even shading the eyes might be enough to allow someone in in a lighted area to see outside of it.  

[redsash]

16 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

My presumption is that we're talking about anything except the Darkness Power.  I'm not entirely certain it's relevant to the discussion, and as you mention perception is disallowed through it entirely. 

 

That was to disambiguate Gnomebody's example of Cthonian impenetrable darkness. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Given this, I'd be pretty iffy on using Suppress Darkness (the Power) as a means for creating light, because one SFX for Darkness could in fact be a very brightly lit area!

 

I'm not at all sold on the idea of Suppressing natural darkness.  Flip it around to:  Suppress lack of natural light. 

 

Yes that is the intent. Call it a Constant Dispel vs low light conditions. 

 

The baseline is a brightly lit combat arena. In a dark space, there is a GM-mandated effect identical to an Uncontrolled Change Environment: "lack of natural light" up to -4. I propose we can use a Constant Dispel against that CE effect, targeting the affected area (6e1 p194) with an effect threshold of 12AP.

 

Or at least use that as a model for a custom power.

 

 

Look at the Gandalf spell again. Note how it *does* dispel Darkness Power effects defined as "Darkness" and also how it would work against a character-driven Change Environment: Low light conditions. 

 

Are you saying it *wouldn't* work against natural GM-imposed low light conditions?

 

 

16 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

By the same token, I wouldn't allow Suppress lack of air supply to allow breathing in a vacuum, Suppress lack of natural gravity to put up a gravity field in space, Suppress lack of something to stand on to prevent falling, Suppress the nonexistence of a dragon here instead of Summoning a dragon... 

 

You're reaching. As you point out, those all have nice clear mechanisms already in place. 

[redsash]

6e1 193: 

 

"Some examples of Dispel include spells designed to disrupt or “break” other spells, light-based powers that can Dispel Darkness fields, or the ability to destroy or ruin gadgets."

[Duke Bushido]

Regarding the "seeing from light into dark" thing:

 

Consider a fall-off zone akin to explosion where the benefits of the light drop off hex by hex (or even larger, depending on the way you want that particular  light to work).  That part is not too difficult. 

 

The problem is modeling the increased penalty for seeing from well-light to dark.  It creates a wierd issue.  Even if we allow CE to add limited Per bonuses (which I believe should have been acceptable from the get-go), then we have to model...  What?  A second CE for the larger area outside the light? 

 

Ooh!   How about a side effect:  I creases to the dark penalty outside the lit are (if you are in it) as a side effect of being on the light? 

[Duke Bushido]

5 minutes ago, redsash said:

6e1 193: 

 

"Some examples of Dispel include spells designed to disrupt or “break” other spells, light-based powers that can Dispel Darkness fields, or the ability to destroy or ruin gadgets."

 

 

Darkness (capital D) can be similar in effect but is not the same as darkness (lower case).  O e can be added to an environment; the other cannot: its a natural condition of the environment when light is not being added. 

 

However, it might serve to study the effect if the model itself. 

[redsash]

36 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Darkness (capital D) can be similar in effect but is not the same as darkness (lower case).  O e can be added to an environment; the other cannot: its a natural condition of the environment when light is not being added. 

 

Yes read back a couple. (Also the side effects idea was explored a few pages back 🙂

 

Consider:

 

Gandalf struck a blue light from the end of his magic staff": Dispel 5d6, All Darkness Effects (+1/2); Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4), No Range (-1/2), OAF (Staff; -1), Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4): 26 Active Points, 7 real Points

 

...would dispel a character-created Darkness field with the SFX (no light), or a Change Environment (low light conditions). The fact that it uses SFX: light means that it would mitigate even the blackest cave. Would it also not work to illuminate a "very dark night, -4 sight PER" in much the same way that a torch would, falling off at the outskirts but visible from a long way off

[Chris Goodwin]

 

1 hour ago, redsash said:

The baseline is a brightly lit combat arena. In a dark space, there is a GM-mandated effect identical to an Uncontrolled Change Environment: "lack of natural light" up to -4. I propose we can use a Constant Dispel against that CE effect, targeting the affected area (6e1 p194) with an effect threshold of 12AP.

 

I disagree that this is how we must represent lack of natural light.  Lack of natural light existed as a condition long before Change Environment existed to give us the means to build a Power to replicate it, or before Dispel or Suppress existed to give us a means to dispel Powers.  

 

I'm perfectly fine with a Change Environment creating low-light conditions via a Sight PER penalty, and having those low-light conditions be mitigated via whatever means we're using to represent light.  I don't think that means that Dispel or Suppress Darkness is necessarily it.  It would be approximately as effective as my previous, "1d6 Blast (light), AoE, Constant, Does No BODY, Does No Stun, etc."  

 

We don't need a Power construct to replicate everything.  

 

1 hour ago, redsash said:

You're reaching. As you point out, those all have nice clear mechanisms already in place. 

 

As does light:  Images.  That we're having this discussion, trying to figure out what else to use besides Images, doesn't change the fact that Images is a nice clear mechanism, and in fact is specified in the rules.  

 

1 hour ago, redsash said:

"Some examples of Dispel include spells designed to disrupt or “break” other spells, light-based powers that can Dispel Darkness fields, or the ability to destroy or ruin gadgets."

 

The capital-D Darkness here indicates the Darkness Power.  And I can think of a number of SFX for the Darkness Power that wouldn't be Dispelled by light.  Smoke cloud, for instance.  Cloud of crystalline shards.  Field of bright light.  Darkness vs. Hearing, Radio, Taste/Smell.  

 

And, again, going back to the first post in the thread, we don't seem to be talking about dispelling the Darkness Power.  

[redsash]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Since that "ordinary darkness" applies only to the Sight sense, not the entire Sight Group, any sense in the Sight Group (like Infrared Vision, Ultraviolet Vision or even Nightvision) will be able to see in the Change Environment model.

 

According to 6e1 p209, Sight Group is just Normal Sight and Nightvision.

 

IR and UV Perception are both in the Unusual Group now.

[Chris Goodwin]

3 minutes ago, redsash said:

 

According to 6e1 p209, Sight Group is just Normal Sight and Nightvision.

 

IR and UV Perception are both in the Unusual Group now.

 

See the Simulated Sense Group rule, 6e1 p. 207.  

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

4 hours ago, redsash said:

 

You were asking for illumination models in the original quote.

 

Your Cthonian Darkness is a power: the only choice in the rules is to use suppress to illuminate it.

 

If you want to see personally, buy a perception power that is not covered by the Darkness. or personal immunity if the Cavelords are generating it themselves somehow.

People in this thread are explicitly talking about changing the rules.  I am explicitly talking about a construct (left to the creation of the model-maker) that permits "Egads!  It's so dark even I, Hyper-Eye Man, can't see!" "Foolish surfacer, we can!".  I recognize that your stance is "You cannot", but that's a failure of your model in my opinion. 

[redsash]

5 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

As does light:  Images.  That we're having this discussion, trying to figure out what else to use besides Images, doesn't change the fact that Images is a nice clear mechanism, and in fact is specified in the rules.  

 

I think we all agree that Images is flawed in a number of ways, which is why we're having this conversation.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

The capital-D Darkness here indicates the Darkness Power.  And I can think of a number of SFX for the Darkness Power that wouldn't be Dispelled by light.  Smoke cloud, for instance.  Cloud of crystalline shards.  Field of bright light.  Darkness vs. Hearing, Radio, Taste/Smell.  

 

Not disagreeing. The quote from the rules was about light-based Dispel powers combating Darkness Fields, presumably using the darkness SFX. It certainly gave me the idea though. And in execution it so far works mechanically better than anything else I have seen proposed here. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

And, again, going back to the first post in the thread, we don't seem to be talking about dispelling the Darkness Power.  

 

Agreed, but again please take a look at Gandalf's Light spell. (HeroDesigner changed the title to Suppress before but that's for Drain, it should be Dispel):

 

Dispel 5d6, All Darkness Effects (+1/2); Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2); Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4), No Range (-1/2)

26 Active Points

 

...would dispel a character-created Darkness field or Change Environment with the SFX (Darkness/Light Reduction). The fact that the Dispel uses SFX: light means that it would mitigate even the blackest cave like your EB. It's an easy stretch for it to illuminate a "very dark night, -4 sight PER" in much the same way that a torch would, falling off at the outskirts. It would be  visible from a long way off because no night penalties and high contrast, likely a +9 total bonus.

 

I don't insist on altering anyone's universe or anything. Modelling a "Very Dark Night" as CE just gives us an Active Point total to aim for. Using Dispel against that target gives us an elegant, scalable solution from 7AP candles at 1RP each to Gandalf the White's flood-the-valley-with-daylight, without making new powers or violating any rule (other than "Use Images!")

 

I see only one mechanical flaw with that approach but so far no-one has spotted it 😉

[redsash]

29 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

See the Simulated Sense Group rule, 6e1 p. 207.  

Ah thanks!

 

Still, I would allow IR but not UV to see in a cave, no matter what sense organ you're using to pick up those wavelengths. No starshine down there but bodies radiate  heat and rocks reflect it just fine.

[dsatow]

4 hours ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "base it off of sight".  Do you mean put it into the Sight Group, or do you mean to construct a duplicate "sight" power that's not in the Sight Group and so is unaffected by lighting? 

Both have obvious problems though.  The former doesn't work without also integrating Hugh's solution, the latter has massive side effects since it renders the character immune to all sight-obstructions such as Flash and not-dark Darkness. 

 

I'm not sure I'm following your objections.  You would put the spatial awareness in the sight group and call it whatever you want such as "Darkness Sight".   

 

Per 6e1p174 last paragraph, if you have an appropriate sense then effects in change environment are negated.

Per 6e1p226, flash affects a sense group.  So a sight flash would affect the "Darkness Sight" like any other sight based sense.

To prevent it from seeing through matter, just limit it with a -1 limitation "Affected by physical visual obstructions".

If you want it to foil the Darkness all sight group, then change it to a special sense and then limit it -1/2 affected by sight based flashes.

 

[dsatow]

54 minutes ago, redsash said:

 

Agreed, but again please take a look at Gandalf's Light spell. (HeroDesigner changed the title to Suppress before but that's for Drain, it should be Dispel):

 

Dispel 5d6, All Darkness Effects (+1/2); Costs Endurance (to maintain; -1/2); Area Of Effect (16m Radius Explosion; +1/4), No Range (-1/2)

26 Active Points

 

...would dispel a character-created Darkness field or Change Environment with the SFX (Darkness/Light Reduction). The fact that the Dispel uses SFX: light means that it would mitigate even the blackest cave like your EB. It's an easy stretch for it to illuminate a "very dark night, -4 sight PER" in much the same way that a torch would, falling off at the outskirts. It would be  visible from a long way off because no night penalties and high contrast, likely a +9 total bonus.

 

 

Assuming a negative modifier at 3 pts per -1.  A -9 darkness according to your design is 27 active points.  If we assume a standard effect of 3 points per die, then it would not remove the darkness.  You probably want to beef the dispel up to 9d6 and take standard effect by your build design.  

 

There is another issue with the construct in that dispel is an instant and all or nothing, which is why suppress is a better design considerations.  Per dispel 6e1p193, the power once shut off can be restarted.  Theoretically, that would mean you would instantly negate the darkness and then, the next segment or at the bottom of the segment the darkness would restart since the darkness is a natural state.  Since its all or nothing, that means if its too dark, the power does nothing.  Drain would not work well either as once the light left the area, the light would still be present for at least 12 seconds after the character disappears.  The Suppress construct is Drain with the Cost End to maintain limitation.

 

As a side note, while I personally will allow an AoE to center and target an individual and thus allow movement, the RaW says that your construct requires the mobile advantage +1/2 for the area of effect, unless it is cast on a stationary object.  ( I had an argument a year or two ago where the other poster said that allowing the movement for free was too big of an advantage )

 

Cost calculations:

Dispel 5d6 = 15 * 1.75 = 26 / 2 = 13

Dispel 9d6 = 27 * 1.75 = 47 / 2 = 23

Suppress 5d6 = 50 * 1.75 = 87 / 2 = 43

Suppress 9d6 = 90 * 1.75 =  157 / 2 = 79

 

This is versus the cost of the current light images design (again by no means great but not more flawed and is considered default by the rules)

Images +4 Sight Per, Only to create light -1, Mobile AoE 16m Explosion Radius +3/4, No range -1/2 

Images = 22 * 1.75 = 38 / 2.5 = 15

Edited January 6, 2020 by dsatow
forgot to add explosion on the images construct, math was fine