Light Effects

[Hugh Neilson]

13 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

Upon further reflection (pun not intended, but intentionally not avoided) there's a mistaken assumption in my Active Sight idea:  It shouldn't give the equivalent of full daylight.  After all, the bat's active sonar is still limited by the bat's normal hearing perception range.  It can't "sonar-see" things miles away.  Likewise, Active Sight would only illuminate in accordance with the character's normal visual acuity. 

 

Why would Active Sight illuminate the area?  Active Sonar lets the bat sense things using hearing, and things with appropriate hearing senses detect the bat.  It does not allow anyone else the ability to detect what the bat perceives with its active sonar.

 

As to Duke's comment, that free lighting from SFX is a lot like free lighting from an "equipment flashlight".  It works solely at the GM's pleasure. 

 

"In the instant flash of your lightning, you can see that he is not alone"

 

"What are the people with him wearing?  Are they armed?  How many are there?"

 

"Make a PER roll at -6 to pick out any one of those details.  The flash distorts colors so you can't tell if they are wearing VIPER green or police blue.  And you will only be able to approximately count the ones within 6 meters of any point along the Blast's path.  And everyone in the room takes a penalty to sight-based PER rolls for the next few phases thanks to your bright lightning's interaction with their dilated pupils."

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Why would Active Sight illuminate the area?  Active Sonar lets the bat sense things using hearing, and things with appropriate hearing senses detect the bat.  It does not allow anyone else the ability to detect what the bat perceives with its active sonar.

 

Anyone with passive sonar would have an area "illuminated" by someone using active sonar.  I would say that, similarly, anyone with passive sight would have the area illuminated by someone using active sight. 🙂

[redsash]

On 1/7/2020 at 9:46 AM, Lee said:

So, it seems to me that the crux of the problem is what simplifying assumptions you can or need to make regarding darkness and light and whether or not the model it produces is good enough for what you're trying to model. It's not likely we will ever find the perfect solution--just one that's good enough for an individual GM or their table.

 

I love this system, it bugs me that the stock rules don't model light very well. So basic! Worth throwing some skull sweat at. 

 

Thanks to all for helping me clarify thinking on this. Here's a sample, hope you enjoy it:

 

From 6e1 p238

Flashlight: Sight Group Images, +4 to PER Rolls, Area Of Effect (1m Radius; +¼) (27 Active Points);
OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1), No Range (-½). Total cost: 8 points.

 

Yuck!

27 AP for 1m radius? At least grant the 4m paid for. (Is there perhaps an errata for this?)

And as someone pointed out, this makes for a flashlight with 5 DEF: nearly bulletproof.

So OK, those are both fixable oversights, leaving us with:

 

Flashlight: Sight Group Images, +4 to PER Rolls, Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +¼) (27 Active Points);
No Range (-½), Only To Create Light (-1), OAF Fragile (-1¼) Total cost: 7 points.

 

Hey I knocked off a point! Don’t bang on it too hard, though.

 

But wait! That costs 3 END per phase! Our flashlight user will soon die of exhaustion.

Also why is it a radius? And still just 4m? That sounds more like a lantern. And should we not at least try to simulate the inverse-square law?

OK, all fixable objections. Let’s not stop now!

So here’s a rules-checked Images-based flashlight that makes it past my Psych Lim: OCD (Common, Mild):

 

Sight Group Images, +/-4 to PER Rolls, Area Of Effect 16m (Mobile Thin Cone *Explosion; +¼), (27 AP); No Range (-½), Only Light (-1), OAF Fragile (-1 ¼), 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (-0) (7 RP)

 

*proportionally calculated to grant a friendly +4 at 0-4, +3 at 5-8, +2 at 9-12, and +1 at 13-16m

 

>>whistles<< Prrrricey: even the battery “clips” cost 2RP for 4.

And maybe the expense is justified because this works TOO WELL!

 

Images grants a direct bonus to Perception checks, so this flashlight would also compensate for penalties due to any character-created Change-Environment effect, including fog, snow, smoke, sentient magic blackness, photon-sucking bacterial mist or whatever.

 

😄

[Sean Waters]

I've not read the whole thread but, for what it is worth...

 

1. I do not like 'Darkness, normal' to be written up as -4 to PER rolls.  Makes no sense.  Doesn't matter how smart you are, you can not see in the dark.

2. I don't think there is a really satisfactory way of writing up the generation of light or, for that matter, the generation of non-damaging energy of any kind.

3. The whole 'senses' thing might make more, well, sense, if it was done differently.  I do like the active sense thing though.  Clever.

4. You specifically can not use Change Environment to create light, although you can use it to create heat, which is a sort of light, or will do in a pinch (and with vision in the right bit of the spectrum).  Bah.

 

I've got a torch that can illuminate stuff a hundred metres or more away.  It is less use than being able to see in the dark, because it has a narrower filed of vision than I do and, you know, it is a torch.  The further away I shine it, the dimmer it illuminates but the wider the area it illuminates.

 

Hmm.  Just thinking.

 

Right, a beam of light , used as an attack, would cost 5 points for 1d6 damage.  It would have a range of 50m.  It is visible. I do not think it unreasonable that the sfx could be defined to briefly illuminate everything along its path. and probably for a couple of metres either side.  To be useful as a torch it would have to be constant, which is +1/2.  A 128m thin cone is +1.  No range is -1/2.  A 1 hour continuing fuel charge is +0.  Obvious Accessible Focus is -1.  'SFX only' is, perhaps -1 again, maybe -2.  Either way that works out at 3 points.  Leaving out OAF it is 5 or 3 points depending on the SFX only limitation.

 

Sod it.  Energy Creation: For 5 points you can create  non damaging energy as up to an 8m explosion.  The energy has all the normal properties of the created energy* but is not intense enough to (normally**) cause damage.  This can include 'negative energy' like cold.  It is ranged (10m x active points).  Costs END. Constant.

 

That'll do.

 

 

 

*Light illuminates and can be seen even outside the area of immediate illumination.  Heat will convect or radiate and, in an enclosed space, eventually heat up the entire area unless cooling is applied.  Magnetism affects magnets and may magnetise iron.  Electricity can power household appliances.  Etc., etc.

 

**It may well trigger appropriate susceptibilities, however.

 

[redsash]

10 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

1. I do not like 'Darkness, normal' to be written up as -4 to PER rolls.  Makes no sense.  Doesn't matter how smart you are, you can not see in the dark.

 

Complete lack of light allows no perception checks. A "Dark Night" allows checks at -4.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

Sod it.  Energy Creation: For 5 points you can create  non damaging energy as up to an 8m explosion.  The energy has all the normal properties of the created energy* but is not intense enough to (normally**) cause damage.  This can include 'negative energy' like cold.  It is ranged (10m x active points).  Costs END. Constant.

 

Yes, I think I saw that build thirty years ago. Not very scalable: think candles vs spotlights.

 

 

[redsash]

RADIATE (LIGHT)

Type: Standard / Sense Affecting power

Duration: Constant

Target: Target’s DCV

Range: 10m x Base Points

Costs END: Yes

 

Cost: 5 Character Points to illuminate a single target at range, reducing Sight Perception penalties due to low light conditions for perceiving that target by 1, further penalty reductions of 1 per 3 Character Points.

 

With a successful attack roll, a character using this power can cause a target at range to radiate light, effectively countering low-light conditions due to natural night and shadow as well as Change Environment (with the Special Effect “shadow, darkness, light suppression” or similar).

 

Furthermore, as with any power employing light-based special effects, use of this ability will counteract naturally occurring “total darkness” caused by the complete lack of light (such as in a sealed underground chamber), allowing sight Perception rolls at -4 even beyond the power’s target, out to line of sight.

 

The bonus to perception affects everyone within line of sight of the target and lasts as long as the originating character spends END. As soon as the power ceases to operate, all light and perception bonuses instantly fade. All suspended Power effects return to their previous area of effect and magnitude.

 

The use of this power can never grant bonuses to Sight Perception beyond that needed to compensate for low light conditions (maximum -4 for a “dark night”). However, characters may wish to purchase higher bonuses to counteract more powerful Change Environment effects.

 

At the GM’s discretion, a circumstance bonus to ranged perception of up to +5 may also apply to simulate the contrast of a brightly lit object in otherwise dark conditions.

 

MODIFIERS:

Often characters will buy Radiate Light with the Area of Effect or Area of Effect Explosion advantages to simulate candles, lanterns, flashlights and the like. In this case the Light will also affect any part of the declared area that intersects with an applicable character-created Change Environment “darkness” effect but will have no affect on other areas affected by the same power.

 

(That is, it doesn’t work quite like Dispel/Drain/Suppress, which target the character controlling the power and not the area affected, and either completely shut down the power or have no effect.)

 

ADDERS:

Modulate: +5 points for the ability to transmit decodable signals using the radiant source.

Additional Sense Groups: (ultrasound, radio, scent, etc.) 3 pts, +1 for +2 pts for non-targeting Senses, 5/+3 for targeting Senses.

[Duke Bushido]

11 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Why would Active Sight illuminate the area?  Active Sonar lets the bat sense things using hearing, and things with appropriate hearing senses detect the bat.  It does not allow anyone else the ability to detect what the bat perceives with its active sonar.

 

As to Duke's comment, that free lighting from SFX is a lot like free lighting from an "equipment flashlight".  It works solely at the GM's pleasure. 

 

"In the instant flash of your lightning, you can see that he is not alone"

 

"What are the people with him wearing?  Are they armed?  How many are there?"

 

Shoot him again and find out.

 

Though free light isn't solely the GM's prerogative, unless something in the rules bans light---type and glowing sfx.

 

 

11 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

"Make a PER roll at -6 to pick out any one of those details.  The flash distorts colors so you can't tell if they are wearing VIPER green or police blue.  And you will only be able to approximately count the ones within 6 meters of any point along the Blast's path.  And everyone in the room takes a penalty to sight-based PER rolls for the next few phases thanks to your bright lightning's interaction with their dilated pupils."

 

 

See how that works?  Hugh's giving away Flash!

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

5 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

I've not read the whole thread but, for what it is worth...

 

1. I do not like 'Darkness, normal' to be written up as -4 to PER rolls.  Makes no sense.  Doesn't matter how smart you are, you can not see in the dark.

 

This

5 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

2. I don't think there is a really satisfactory way of writing up the generation of light or, for that matter, the generation of non-damaging energy of any kind.

 

And this.  So very much this

 

Both of these.

 

 

[Solitude]

I walk over to the wall and flick the switch.

Really people,  seven pages of replies and not one of you looked. 

[Duke Bushido]

Couldn't.

 

The lights were out.

 

Thats a minus 4, apparently.

 

 

[Solitude]

37 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Couldn't.

 

The lights were out.

 

Thats a minus 4, apparently.

 

 

 

Ah. That's why I bought spacial awareness through an OIF toe.

It's breakable,  and has both jammed and burnout. 

[Vanguard]

On 1/5/2020 at 5:39 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

This bonus is very easy to achieve - a SuperScientist will often have a 15- PER roll from INT alone. 

 

This is why I wish Per was delinked with all the other stats.

 

just because you're supersmart doesn't mean you're super observant/perceptive . . . 

 

On 1/5/2020 at 8:03 PM, PhilFleischmann said:

If your PER roll is 11- or better after all circumstantial modifiers are applied, and there's no other circumstance that would cause you to fail to see something*, then don't bother rolling - you can automatically see what you're looking at.

 

Mr problem with that harkens back to the Batman with "just really good eyes" v Robin with "Nightvision".  If you have to wear vision enhancing gear to be able to see, I don't think someone without enhanced senses (and I don't mean Enhance Perception: Sight) should be able to see.  Or at least not see well.   Bats may be able to make out objects/shapes but I think that's all I'd give him.  I mean, Bats is good, don't get me wrong but he's not superhuman.  Robin, on the other hand, would get full use of the "DIscriminatory" adder that Sight gets for free.

 

It also dovetails nicely with my thoughts on Hugh's "SuperScientist".  .  .

 

Hopefully I'm making sense . . . 

[dmjalund]

15 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

Energy Creation

Can you buy it with Variable Special Effect?

[redsash]

On 1/5/2020 at 5:01 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

Dark is not the default condition.  We assume as a base that you get normal PER rolls, so that assumes you are in the light.  You want to make it dark, you buy an ability to do so.  To say "dark is the default" because it is an absence of light implies that absolute zero in a vacuum is also the default.

 

Yes, even in deep space we get a Perception check at -4 because there are some photons available from starlight. On a dark cloudy night even clouds reflect light from cities many miles away. Eyeballs are quite efficient: that's why they're 35 points a pair.

 

In a cave there may not be any visible or UV wavelengths because rock stops photons. No PER check.

 

In the night under the darkest jungle canopy, there may well be no visible wavelengths, perhaps some UV at GM's discretion. I'd say no PER check with vanilla sight, -2 to UV, no penalty to IR or Night Vision (good as daylight to Black Panther).

 

Mammals radiate heat, so even in the darkest coldest cave there should be enough IR bouncing off mammilian Avengers to illuminate like a very dim lamp (-4 perhaps?)  Many animals can sense IR: snakes have a pit in their heads. Certainly a snake would be able to sense a human in a dark cave...

 

6e (and the Radiate Light power described previously) assumes that more illumination would not increase perception checks, but on reflection is that strictly realistic?  I have noticed my (slightly nearsighted) vision improves markedly on a very sunny day.

 

 

 

[redsash]

7 hours ago, Vanguard said:

This is why I wish Per was delinked with all the other stats.

 

just because you're supersmart doesn't mean you're super observant/perceptive . . . 

 

I think of intelligence as the product of a particularly well-developed and therefore sensitive nervous system. 

 

Evolutionarily speaking, the brain/CNS developed to process sensory signals. Only later did we develop abstract intelligence using that sensory processing ability.

 

Certainly you can get very smart people who aren't very observant, but at least give them points back from the psych lim 🙂

 

 

 

Quote

Mr problem with that harkens back to the Batman with "just really good eyes" v Robin with "Nightvision".  If you have to wear vision enhancing gear to be able to see, I don't think someone without enhanced senses (and I don't mean Enhance Perception: Sight) should be able to see.  Or at least not see well.   Bats may be able to make out objects/shapes but I think that's all I'd give him.  I mean, Bats is good, don't get me wrong but he's not superhuman.  Robin, on the other hand, would get full use of the "DIscriminatory" adder that Sight gets for free.

 

Batman practiced in dark mazes with swinging boobytraps until he could feel every little thing coming. It's in comics and the novels.

 

By canon, he also uses flashlights to read things in the dark. He also uses nightvision in his mask. He also uses misdirection to make people think that he has superhuman powers. . .

 

Also we can hardly penalize him for a "dark night"

 

 

 

Quote

It also dovetails nicely with my thoughts on Hugh's "SuperScientist".  .  .

 

Hopefully I'm making sense . . . 

 

No problems there 😉

[Sean Waters]

5 hours ago, dmjalund said:

Can you buy it with Variable Special Effect?

 

Oh yes

[ScottishFox]

On 1/8/2020 at 7:56 PM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I've always felt that HERO should have used -1 steps for range instead of -2 steps.  Right now, being even one range bracket out is so punishing that "ranged" characters feel like they're not really capable of any actual ranged combat. 

Making it -1 steps gives you a 128m distance for a -4 penalty, which seems a lot more reasonable.  From my experience blundering around in dark rooms and going on hikes, seeing something man-sized and hidden in the dark is about as hard as seeing it a football field away.  Or at least they feel like they take similar amounts of time spent going "Wait, where is it?  No really, where?". 

 

I believe the -1 Range MOD list is in the Advanced Players Guide #2.

[Duke Bushido]

11 hours ago, Vanguard said:

 

 

Hopefully I'm making sense . . . 

 

You're making perfect sense, and I can totally agree with you _except_..... 

 

The problem is that I can justify it.  Not I. Real life, mind you, but in a comic book sort of way:

 

The higher native Per roll for the higher INT suggests someone who is typically more observant and more aware of his surroundings.  His higher INT is suggests someone more capable of analyzing the dim and almost no sensical shapes or blurs he can perceive and associate them with what they really are.  It's not that he can see bette, it's that he has a better understanding if just what it is he is seeing. 

 

Realistically, it's total crap, but then, so is Fire Breath and Telekinesis.  Comic book wise, though--even though I'm not keen on it- it's easy enough to justify. 

 

It's also why in my games the "no PER roll is possible" threshold is - 12.

 

Ultimately, though, any penalty that rolls over into "Roll is forbidden" is just a bad model, because it doesn't affect people more or less the same.  I had suggested (half heartedly) early on an entire new mechanical approach to light / dark, and things like this are the reasons why. 

[PhilFleischmann]

On 1/8/2020 at 5:56 PM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I've always felt that HERO should have used -1 steps for range instead of -2 steps.  Right now, being even one range bracket out is so punishing that "ranged" characters feel like they're not really capable of any actual ranged combat. 

Making it -1 steps gives you a 128m distance for a -4 penalty, which seems a lot more reasonable.  From my experience blundering around in dark rooms and going on hikes, seeing something man-sized and hidden in the dark is about as hard as seeing it a football field away.  Or at least they feel like they take similar amounts of time spent going "Wait, where is it?  No really, where?". 

For anyone who doesn't want to make that big of a change, there is a reasonable compromise:  Let the rMods for attacks remain the same: -2 for each doubling. and let rMods for perception be -1 per doubling of distance.

 

And Re: the super-smart person having better perception, I think the model for this is Sherlock Holmes.  I don't think his eyes (or any other sensory organs) were any better than any other normal human, but he observed a lot more and took in more details because of his high INT.  Yes, there is the "absent-minded professor" type, that walks down the street thinking about theoretical physics problems and falls into an open manhole because he's not paying attention to where he's going.  I'd say that's a Psychological Limitation.

[PhilFleischmann]

12 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Mr problem with that harkens back to the Batman with "just really good eyes" v Robin with "Nightvision".  If you have to wear vision enhancing gear to be able to see, I don't think someone without enhanced senses (and I don't mean Enhance Perception: Sight) should be able to see.  Or at least not see well.   Bats may be able to make out objects/shapes but I think that's all I'd give him.  I mean, Bats is good, don't get me wrong but he's not superhuman.  Robin, on the other hand, would get full use of the "DIscriminatory" adder that Sight gets for free.

Fine, but I don't see what that has to do with the quote of mine that you quoted.  I was talking about when you *can* see - when, even after all negative circumstantial modifiers, your PER roll is still 11- (or better), just like normal.  And again, under otherwise normal circumstances, where you aren't being distracted, and the thing you're trying to see isn't hidden, etc.

 

Even if the light is just slightly dim, reducing your roll from 11- to only 10-, then yes, you need to make the roll.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

 

Even if the light is just slightly dim, reducing your roll from 11- to only 10-, then yes, you need to make the roll.

 

 

Quoted for emphasis. 

 

I agree with this one hundred percent.   Yes; there are a lot of things that simply having the relevant skill to do them means I will let you do them without a roll (usually assuming super-common or routine thing--like a bank teller count g money at speeds that make me nervous- and a skill rating of 8 or less ).  There are slightly more difficult or slightly less common things I might let you do without a roll if your skill rating is remarkably high. 

 

But if there is a penalty, that changes.  A penalty is assessed because something here is markedly unusual, different, or difficult: it's outised the realm of "things I do all day long in a suitable environment.". I don't care if your skill rating is 30 or less and the penalty is only -1; if a penalty has been assigned, you are going to roll. 

[Ninja-Bear]

FWIW I looked up Light College for Fantasy Hero 4th ed and It was bought as Change Environment.

 

Btw what is Light Illumination it was listed in Gadgets! book.

 

 

[Vanguard]

9 hours ago, redsash said:

 

I think of intelligence as the product of a particularly well-developed and therefore sensitive nervous system. 

 

Evolutionarily speaking, the brain/CNS developed to process sensory signals. Only later did we develop abstract intelligence using that sensory processing ability.

 

Certainly you can get very smart people who aren't very observant, but at least give them points back from the psych lim 🙂

 

 

 

 

Batman practiced in dark mazes with swinging boobytraps until he could feel every little thing coming. It's in comics and the novels.

 

By canon, he also uses flashlights to read things in the dark. He also uses nightvision in his mask. He also uses misdirection to make people think that he has superhuman powers. . .

 

Also we can hardly penalize him for a "dark night"

 

 

 

 

No problems there 😉

 

1) I see (no pun intended) you point there and explained that way, makes sense (did it again)  

 

2) Then he's not "seeing" he's reacting and using something, in my opinion, something like spatial awareness to be able to sense/detect the swinging objects and other obstructions that might be in his way. He's not "Seeing" as Robin would be.

 

The canon explanation makes it a bit more palatable for me as he's using other objects and abilities to get the more detailed vision that the previous comment made it seem like he was getting.  If he can "see" the dark sewer tunnels but would still need to pull out his flashlight to read what the Riddler had scrawled on the wall, then I'm good.  If he could do that just because he's"s "Batman" eh . . . No so much.

 

 

5 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

You're making perfect sense, and I can totally agree with you _except_..... 

 

The problem is that I can justify it.  Not I. Real life, mind you, but in a comic book sort of way:

 

The higher native Per roll for the higher INT suggests someone who is typically more observant and more aware of his surroundings.  His higher INT is suggests someone more capable of analyzing the dim and almost no sensical shapes or blurs he can perceive and associate them with what they really are.  It's not that he can see bette, it's that he has a better understanding if just what it is he is seeing. 

 

Realistically, it's total crap, but then, so is Fire Breath and Telekinesis.  Comic book wise, though--even though I'm not keen on it- it's easy enough to justify. 

 

It's also why in my games the "no PER roll is possible" threshold is - 12.

 

Ultimately, though, any penalty that rolls over into "Roll is forbidden" is just a bad model, because it doesn't affect people more or less the same.  I had suggested (half heartedly) early on an entire new mechanical approach to light / dark, and things like this are the reasons why. 

 

Well, if we fall back to "its the comics" a lot of things can be forgiven.  I don't mind suspending belief due to the comic/cinematic nature of the game but there comes a point where you have to say "Oh come on! there was no way he could be able to do that!!"

 

And both you and redsash above have beautifully explained how a high Int can/should/could give someone a high Per.  It just felt a bit cheesy that Mr SuperScientist dumps all his points into Int and is just as observant as a someone that's mildly intelligent but poured a crap ton of points into Per with the explanation that he's trained for years to be observant of his surroundings.  Yet MR S is just as perceptive because he's smart. 

 

4 hours ago, PhilFleischmann said:

Fine, but I don't see what that has to do with the quote of mine that you quoted.  I was talking about when you *can* see - when, even after all negative circumstantial modifiers, your PER roll is still 11- (or better), just like normal.  And again, under otherwise normal circumstances, where you aren't being distracted, and the thing you're trying to see isn't hidden, etc.

 

Even if the light is just slightly dim, reducing your roll from 11- to only 10-, then yes, you need to make the roll.

 

Sorry about that Phil.  I think you may have gotten caught up in my mass quoting and then I tried to shoehorn you in.

 

Apologies.

[Ninja-Bear]

Oh and fwiw, Steve Long in Dark Champions 4th also uses Change Environment for  Flashlight..

[Ninja-Bear]

Also I read the description of Images in 4th BBB and I can *ahem* see why Light is bought through Images. The definition of Images is that it affects ones senses which of course light does.  Now I believed that once CE was expanded in Fifth then Light should’ve went that way. However what I can’t see is the angst this topic has caused.